Motor Trend vid: GT-R NISMO vs Z06

[GoCougs]

Meh, I still don't buy all these hypotheses.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Multiple recent GM performance cars have been hitting way above their weight, chassis-wise. One supposed engine problem and all the sudden the chassis gets shit on for no reason?

I find this interesting.

You say recent GM performance cars have been hitting way above their weight. No doubt a reference to the Z/28, and a factual one at that. So it's apparent GM can design a car with a stated performance goal and match if not exceed it.

Then you go on to use the word "supposed" when a GM performance product fails to even meet it's goal. It hasn't even met it, let alone come anywhere close to exceeding it. Yet it's just a "supposed" problem.

This car has lost on the track to the GTR, been walked by vipers in multi roll races and another car from the same stable is a consistent and excellent performer.

I don't know how any rational non biased person could not see a problem here.

[hotrodalex]

I say supposed because it's still unknown exactly what the problem is. Just lots of speculation.

[Tave]

IMO the hi-po Vettes jumped the shark after the C4 Zr1 and C5 Z06. The C6 Zr1 was a better effort but my expectations aren't much going forward. The base model is the only entry in the lineup that has consistently interested me over the last 10 yrs.

[Cookie Monster]

Multiple recent GM performance cars have been hitting way above their weight, chassis-wise. One supposed engine problem and all the sudden the chassis gets shit on for no reason?

"Bunch" of problems? One problem with a lot of speculation thrown around. And you're still pulling this "not as fast as a GT-R" business when it's $50k cheaper and still faster than a bunch of other supercars. Said supercars aren't as fast as the GT-R while still costing more. Are those a failure as well? If GM is retarded for not being able to beat the GT-R, everyone else is retarded too. Fair is fair.

(Especially considering that if you tune the ECU and get rid of the supposed problem, the thing might be faster than the GT-R)

I don't think it's me defending GM at any cost here, it's y'all being idiots about this.

It was also unstable/oversteering at the limit.

Your solution to this is to get a warranty-voiding tune on a brand new $80k that likes to blow up engines with a stock tune, and your justification is "oh I like old cars so I'm used to not having a warranty". I bet if you dropped $80k on that thing, you wouldn't want to drop another $20k+ replacing the engine when you eat it with a tune.

[hotrodalex]

It was also unstable/oversteering at the limit.

Your solution to this is to get a warranty-voiding tune on a brand new $80k that likes to blow up engines with a stock tune, and your justification is "oh I like old cars so I'm used to not having a warranty". I bet if you dropped $80k on that thing, you wouldn't want to drop another $20k+ replacing the engine when you eat it with a tune.

That's just the nature of a high performance FR car. Makes it fun. (Also I'd still like to see proof that they tried reducing rear shock settings, which should have been step one with those complaints)

If you don't like my personal solution, that's okay. If it were my money I'd build a C3 with an LS7. (Which BTW wouldn't have much of a warranty)

[GoCougs]

IMO the hi-po Vettes jumped the shark after the C4 Zr1 and C5 Z06. The C6 Zr1 was a better effort but my expectations aren't much going forward. The base model is the only entry in the lineup that has consistently interested me over the last 10 yrs.

This is true too. No one should really care much about these "super" Vettes or forced induction cars in general. It's limited technology that mostly exists to appease regulation or play the spec game or appease lack of time/money/expertise to Do It Right (natural aspiration).

The C6 Z06 was the pinnacle IMO.

[FoMoJo]

This is true too. No one should really care much about these "super" Vettes or forced induction cars in general. It's limited technology that mostly exists to appease regulation or play the spec game or appease lack of time/money/expertise to Do It Right (natural aspiration).

The C6 Z06 was the pinnacle IMO.

So, that's as good as it's going to get?

[r0tor]

So you think you can tune the suspension better than GM chassis engineers with just tires and aftermarket suspension?

I would rather have a FR with a big V8 than the GT-R. More exiting and fun > fastest lap time.

I think its pretty obvious the rear end needs to be softer by the amount of sweat running down Pobst forehead on a car only making 550hp.  The full 650hp would be even worse oversteering.

[GoCougs]

So, that's as good as it's going to get?

Pinnacle implies "up till now." Who knows what the future will hold. 

[FoMoJo]

Pinnacle implies "up till now." Who knows what the future will hold. 

Actually, it doesn't...but I won't argue about your intent.  As for the future, my prediction is a mid-engine TT V6.  Far more potential for increased performance...providing they get the engineering right.

[hotrodalex]

I think its pretty obvious the rear end needs to be softer by the amount of sweat running down Pobst forehead on a car only making 550hp.  The full 650hp would be even worse oversteering.

That's more in the "specific track tuning" category. Every track is different.

[hotrodalex]

Actually, it doesn't...but I won't argue about your intent.  As for the future, my prediction is a mid-engine TT V6.  Far more potential for increased performance...providing they get the engineering right.

As long as it's not called a Corvette.

[r0tor]

That's more in the "specific track tuning" category. Every track is different.

Bad oversteer everywhere on a track is probably indicative of a larger problem then just 1 particular track.

The car has immense reliability issues, HP deficit, and an ill conceived aero package.  At best this thing was rushed out the door to meet a deadline before it was fully baked.  At worse it was engineered by a team that just didn't give a shit.

[hotrodalex]

Bad oversteer everywhere on a track is probably indicative of a larger problem then just 1 particular track.

The car has immense reliability issues, HP deficit, and an ill conceived aero package.  At best this thing was rushed out the door to meet a deadline before it was fully baked.  At worse it was engineered by a team that just didn't give a shit.

Quite a lot of speculation there, have proof of ill-tuning on other tracks?

What's wrong with the aero package?

[MrH]

This thread is so full of facepalm, I'm done with it.

[r0tor]

Quite a lot of speculation there, have proof of ill-tuning on other tracks?

What's wrong with the aero package?

Yup, sweating pro drivers and complaints the rear spoiler is slowing down "650"hp is just pure speculation... Exploding C&D test carS is also pure speculation... Getting bitch smacked by a car with 50 supposed less HP and 350lb more also speculation.

That life itself even exists is pure speculation.  That you actually exist also speculation.

[Tave]

It was also unstable/oversteering at the limit.

Your solution to this is to get a warranty-voiding tune on a brand new $80k that likes to blow up engines with a stock tune, and your justification is "oh I like old cars so I'm used to not having a warranty". I bet if you dropped $80k on that thing, you wouldn't want to drop another $20k+ replacing the engine when you eat it with a tune.

That's just the nature of a high performance FR car. Makes it fun. (Also I'd still like to see proof that they tried reducing rear shock settings, which should have been step one with those complaints)

If you don't like my personal solution, that's okay. If it were my money I'd build a C3 with an LS7. (Which BTW wouldn't have much of a warranty)

Not all FR's with big engines handle like a Vette. Some are much more progressive and predictable at their limits. The monster Vettes tend to snap steer in weird directions under throttle coming out of corners.

[12,000 RPM]

So you think you can tune the suspension better than GM chassis engineers with just tires and aftermarket suspension?

I would rather have a FR with a big V8 than the GT-R. More exiting and fun > fastest lap time.

No but now you are moving the goalposts. Never said anything about tuning a suspension. Skidpad grip is simple physics. More rubber + less lean = more grip. So if skidpad grip is your metric of handling damn near any car can handle like this. Look at the crazy shit folks do for auto-X.

I too would rather have FR with a big V8 than the GT-R. But if the choice is a GT-R or an FR with a big V8 that loses 10-20% of its horsepower after a lap on a track I wouldn't do either. I'd rather do something like the base Corvette or a 911 GTS than either of these cars. GT-R is in no fucking way worth $150K, I don't care how fast it attacks a track. And the C7 Z06 is yet another example of Neue GM biting off more than it can chew and not correcting things before putting the car on sale.

Your fanboism is showing. Even Cougs fell back on this one.

When I get home remind me to post the Best Motoring C6 vid.

[hotrodalex]

Yup, sweating pro drivers and complaints the rear spoiler is slowing down "650"hp is just pure speculation... Exploding C&D test carS is also pure speculation... Getting bitch smacked by a car with 50 supposed less HP and 350lb more also speculation.

That life itself even exists is pure speculation.  That you actually exist also speculation.

Obvious lack of understanding of aero.

[hotrodalex]

No but now you are moving the goalposts. Never said anything about tuning a suspension. Skidpad grip is simple physics. More rubber + less lean = more grip. So if skidpad grip is your metric of handling damn near any car can handle like this. Look at the crazy shit folks do for auto-X.

I too would rather have FR with a big V8 than the GT-R. But if the choice is a GT-R or an FR with a big V8 that loses 10-20% of its horsepower after a lap on a track I wouldn't do either. I'd rather do something like the base Corvette or a 911 GTS than either of these cars. GT-R is in no fucking way worth $150K, I don't care how fast it attacks a track. And the C7 Z06 is yet another example of Neue GM biting off more than it can chew and not correcting things before putting the car on sale.

Your fanboism is showing. Even Cougs fell back on this one.

When I get home remind me to post the Best Motoring C6 vid.

I'm the one moving the goalposts? This whole post took the goalpost and threw it to the other end zone.

[hotrodalex]

This thread is so full of facepalm, I'm done with it.

+1

[FoMoJo]

This thread is so full of facepalm, I'm done with it.

+1

Obviously, the concept of "banter" has been lost on this generation.

[r0tor]

Obvious lack of understanding of aero.

Real modern supercars use diffusers to get downforce which create minimal drag and active rear wings to create downforce and limit drag... Not creating an airbrake on the rear to try to cancel out the immense amount of lift the C6 had.

[SVT666]

If this was a Mustang, the same people defending the Corvette would be all over Ford for putting out a half-baked product.  In fact, Cougs has said that about Ford for issues that are of much less importance than an engine that only produces max power for one acceleration run.

[12,000 RPM]

This thread is so full of facepalm, I'm done with it.

This is just your high n mighty way of acknowledging you have nothing to add, but still wanting to put your two cents in anyway. Well hear hear, you have been acknowledged as you wish.

[MrH]

This is just your high n mighty way of acknowledging you have nothing to add, but still wanting to put your two cents in anyway. Well hear hear, you have been acknowledged as you wish.

No use even adding anything in this sea of garbage.

[GoCougs]

No but now you are moving the goalposts. Never said anything about tuning a suspension. Skidpad grip is simple physics. More rubber + less lean = more grip. So if skidpad grip is your metric of handling damn near any car can handle like this. Look at the crazy shit folks do for auto-X.

I too would rather have FR with a big V8 than the GT-R. But if the choice is a GT-R or an FR with a big V8 that loses 10-20% of its horsepower after a lap on a track I wouldn't do either. I'd rather do something like the base Corvette or a 911 GTS than either of these cars. GT-R is in no fucking way worth $150K, I don't care how fast it attacks a track. And the C7 Z06 is yet another example of Neue GM biting off more than it can chew and not correcting things before putting the car on sale.

Your fanboism is showing. Even Cougs fell back on this one.

When I get home remind me to post the Best Motoring C6 vid.

Fell back? You're reaching too far for that small semblance of validation. I spoke my piece and will gladly speak more if/when there is actual data or information, and guesses/hypotheses are NOT that. Till then its watching from the sidelines as you guys get spun up and off into the weeds.

[GoCougs]

Real modern supercars use diffusers to get downforce which create minimal drag and active rear wings to create downforce and limit drag... Not creating an airbrake on the rear to try to cancel out the immense amount of lift the C6 had.

So how did GM miss this???

[SVT666]

So how did GM miss this???

Same way they missed the the ECU programming.