Motor Trend vid: GT-R NISMO vs Z06

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Well then I guess the answer is simple, GM put wayyy to much aero on this car. While attempting to give the car unbelievable amounts of downforce and grip they have effectively destroyed the cars performance potential based on a power to weight ratio. As observed by the 100-150 MPH times compared to the porsche, a car that weighs the same yet has an average of 17% less power but still manages to be 20% faster(100-150MPH, which negates the awd launch advantage).

Sounds just like poor decision making to me, the overemphasis on aero has made the cars power to weight ratio pretty much moot. I can't help but think there should have been a better option, somewhere in the middle, that still offered a fair amount of downforce while preserving the HP advantage that this car has over the competition.

[68_427]

Well then I guess the answer is simple, GM put wayyy to much aero on this car. While attempting to give the car unbelievable amounts of downforce and grip they have effectively destroyed the cars performance potential based on a power to weight ratio. As observed by the 100-150 MPH times compared to the porsche, a car that weighs the same yet has an average of 17% less power but still manages to be 20% faster(100-150MPH, which negates the awd launch advantage).

Sounds just like poor decision making to me, the overemphasis on aero has made the cars power to weight ratio pretty much moot. I can't help but think there should have been a better option, somewhere in the middle, that still offered a fair amount of downforce while preserving the HP advantage that this car has over the competition.

Nissan claims theirs creates downforce with zero drag

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I'm not saying aero can't be done right, I'm just saying GM's implementation was a poor choice in regards to the overall performance of the vehicle.

[MexicoCityM3]

Nissan claims theirs creates downforce with zero drag

And I claim I know how to do faster than light travel.

[MexicoCityM3]

I'm not saying aero can't be done right, I'm just saying GM's implementation was a poor choice in regards to the overall performance of the vehicle.

Isn't the heavy aero an optional package on the Z06?

[68_427]

I'm not saying aero can't be done right, I'm just saying GM's implementation was a poor choice in regards to the overall performance of the vehicle.

Yeah I was just agreeing with you. 

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Isn't the heavy aero an optional package on the Z06?

Yup, but i'd think the automaker would opt to offer their performance car in a way that promotes max performance.

GM has essentially offered an air brake for their track car and then labeled it a "track pack". Maybe the C8 Z will have a restricter plate option too.

[hotrodalex]

Z07 package will be the go-to option for people looking to autocross. At lower speeds, you need a huge air brake like that to generate the same down force.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Cool, 100K autocross car......

[hotrodalex]

Cool, 100K autocross car......

That's more than most owners will actually do anyway.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Yup, probably why GM really didn't hammer down the last 10% on this car.

If the customers happy, then we did "good enough".

I don't particularly like that frame of mind, and I don't know why their are top level highly paid "talent" amongst GM that think it's acceptable.

How many porsche owners will do 60 consecutive launches in their TT? Probably no one, but Porsche builds a car that is capable of doing what few will ever be able to do with it.

[GoCougs]

Why did they gear it so high? It's not like they were hurting for ratios.

Dunno for sure but my hunch is their testing showed lower gearing didn't help much with acceleration (esp. w/no launch control). It also enables them to have relatively short spacing (~30 mph) between gears 2-5. Top speed in each gear:

1st: 66
2nd: 93
3rd: 124
4th: 150
5th: 183

[hotrodalex]

Dunno for sure but my hunch is their testing showed lower gearing didn't help much with acceleration (esp. w/no launch control). It also enables them to have relatively short spacing (~30 mph) between gears 2-5. Top speed in each gear:

1st: 66
2nd: 93
3rd: 124
4th: 150
5th: 183

Definitely no way they could gear it as low as the GT-R and it's AWD. The Corvette would just spin the tires.

[12,000 RPM]

Well then I guess the answer is simple, GM put wayyy to much aero on this car. While attempting to give the car unbelievable amounts of downforce and grip they have effectively destroyed the cars performance potential based on a power to weight ratio. As observed by the 100-150 MPH times compared to the porsche, a car that weighs the same yet has an average of 17% less power but still manages to be 20% faster(100-150MPH, which negates the awd launch advantage).

Sounds just like poor decision making to me, the overemphasis on aero has made the cars power to weight ratio pretty much moot. I can't help but think there should have been a better option, somewhere in the middle, that still offered a fair amount of downforce while preserving the HP advantage that this car has over the competition.

Theres more to performance than straight line speed, especially above 120-130 MPH. Where can u regularly see such speeds in the US, even on a track?

No other car in the segment is pulling close to 1.2gs of lateral grip. Clearly thats where GM wanted to focus the Z07's prowess. Does that translate to faster lap times? So far it's a wash... I'm waiting to see results from LL2015 which will be in October. I'm not expecting much though. Z51 ran a 2:53 compared to the 2:50-51s for the ZR1/Z28 and the GT-R NISMO was still faster in the 2:49s (4th fastest car of the competition's history). This thing is at the absolute limits of FR street car performance in all aspects.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

"Theres more to performance than straight line speed"

I think that is my point, actually. I don't see where i was stating anything other than that. Hence why I've continued to focus on the track times(and the z06's loss) to make the point.

A race track will test the overall blend of performance aspects of a car, acceleration, grip, suspension tuning/setup and chassis balance. Apparently, having a notable advantage in HP and a SIGNIFICANT advantage in torque, as well as a better F/R weight ratio not to mention a large skidpad advantage. The corvette still lost by a pretty large margin considering it's abundance of advantages over the Nismo.

There is more to straightline speed indeed, as well as there is more to skidpad numbers.

I really don't know what GM was thinking, did they have any competition around for benchmarking when they were putting the final touches on this car? Or being the horrible corporate sloth that it is did the GM team actually sandbag the samples they had to appease the suits?

[GoCougs]

So what your saying is they geared their sports car wayyyyy too long and then saddled it with a terribly high drag aero package, and then threw in an undersized cooling system

Was this car engineered by infants?

And anyway, I haven't been focusing on ET because AWD does have an advantage.  I'm focused on trap speeds which are the best indicator of how much power is being made - and the Vette is trapping like a 550hp car.

No, what I'm saying is you still do not understand torque and horsepower. It should now be obvious why the GTR is quicker and not only because it has AWD, DSG and launch control.

No, trap speed doesn't indicate power made - it indicates thrust force put to the street per unit of mph. Put in gearing that is 50% taller and the Z06 is gonna slow way down.

No, the C7 Z06 is both trapping similar speeds and running similar 1/4 mile times to other M/T RWD cars with similar power/weight ratios and similar tall gearing (these ALL do ~60 mph in 1st and ~95 mph in 2nd); mid 11s @ 125-128 mph:

C7 Z06 - 3,550 lbs, 650 hp, 5.5 lb/hp
C6 ZR1 - 3,360 lbs, 638 hp, 5.3 lb/hp
Viper - 3,350 lbs, 640 hp, 5.2 lb/hp
GT500 - 3,850 lbs, 662 hp, 5.8 lb/hp

[r0tor]

Umm the Z07 is only generating a couple hundred pounds of down force.  Super cars like the Saleen S7 generated 3,000 lbs of down force with far less drag issues.

If this aero package is creating so much drag its making a 650hp car act like a 550hp one, some better be firing their aero engineers.

[r0tor]

No, what I'm saying is you still do not understand torque and horsepower. It should now be obvious why the GTR is quicker and not only because it has AWD, DSG and launch control.

No, trap speed doesn't indicate power made - it indicates thrust force put to the street per unit of mph. Put in gearing that is 50% taller and the Z06 is gonna slow way down.

No, the C7 Z06 is both trapping similar speeds and running similar 1/4 mile times to other M/T RWD cars with similar power/weight ratios and similar tall gearing (these ALL do ~60 mph in 1st and ~95 mph in 2nd); mid 11s @ 125-128 mph:

C7 Z06 - 3,550 lbs, 650 hp, 5.5 lb/hp
C6 ZR1 - 3,360 lbs, 638 hp, 5.3 lb/hp
Viper - 3,350 lbs, 640 hp, 5.2 lb/hp
GT500 - 3,850 lbs, 662 hp, 5.8 lb/hp

Viper is trapping 129-130 mph.  The expected trap speed for a 3400ish pound car with 650hp is 130.  The expected trap speed for a 3400ish pound with 550hp is 125.

Do you really need me to give you a Google search to the hundreds of 1/4 calculators in existence that have worked for ages?

[GoCougs]

Viper is trapping 129-130 mph.  The expected trap speed for a 3400ish pound car with 650hp is 130.  The expected trap speed for a 3400ish pound with 550hp is 125.

Do you really need me to give you a Google search to the hundreds of 1/4 calculators in existence that have worked for ages?

Calculators? 3,400 lbs?

You quite simply do not understand either torque or horsepower nor understand how a car gets on down the strip *r0tor shrug*.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Why argue about 1/4 mile times when there are perfectly good road course times with A PROFESSIONAL DRIVER to illustrate that something is "wrong" with the Z06?

[MexicoCityM3]

I don't care if its slightly slower around a track than cars costing twice as much. It's probably more fun to drive than those.

I do care that it limps after a couple of laps.That really sucks.

[hotrodalex]

I don't care if its slightly slower around a track than cars costing twice as much. It's probably more fun to drive than those.

I do care that it limps after a couple of laps.That really sucks.

+1

[r0tor]

Calculators? 3,400 lbs?

You quite simply do not understand either torque or horsepower nor understand how a car gets on down the strip *r0tor shrug*.

Basic physics still does apply to the Corvette
https://www.google.com/search?q=1%2F4+mile+calculator

[hotrodalex]

Basic physics still does apply to the Corvette
https://www.google.com/search?q=1%2F4+mile+calculator

There's literally 100x more to it.

You throw out a dyno but a garbage 1/4 mile estimator is treated like the gold standard. No way a dyno is gonna be off by 100 hp on multiple occasions, but it's very easy for a 1/4 mi estimate to be off by a couple MPH.

I don't get your jihad. Did you short GM stock recently?

[r0tor]

There's literally 100x more to it.

I don't get your jihad. Did you short GM stock recently?

Fine, prove it performs like a 650hp car.  Do you want to use the comparo where it got bitch slapped on a road course, or a comparo where it got bitch slapped in a straight line?

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I don't care if its slightly slower around a track than cars costing twice as much. It's probably more fun to drive than those.

I do care that it limps after a couple of laps.That really sucks.

It's less about cost and more about what the car(Z06 is).

If I buy a car with:

More HP
More Torque
Better balance
Better brakes
Lower weight
higher grip

I would be concerned something is wrong with it if it loses to a car with significantly less than the above.

[hotrodalex]

Fine, prove it performs like a 650hp car.  Do you want to use the comparo where it got bitch slapped on a road course, or a comparo where it got bitch slapped in a straight line?

By AWD cars using lower gearing?

See my edit, btw. Your assertion that it only makes 550 hp is so wrong it hurts. I would say you should stop now before you embarrass yourself any further, but I don't think that's possible.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Doing more with less

or

Doing less with more

I know which one should describe the Z06. You'd think that GM would have held themselves to a higher standard.

[GoCougs]

Wow, just got my mag. C&D gushed over the Z06 like no other and put it into a performance and driving enjoyment category 1 or 2 levels above the other two cars. They also noted lots of wheel spin on the acceleration testing - they had to walk it off the line to get the best results.

[12,000 RPM]

Viper is trapping 129-130 mph.  The expected trap speed for a 3400ish pound car with 650hp is 130.  The expected trap speed for a 3400ish pound with 550hp is 125.

Do you really need me to give you a Google search to the hundreds of 1/4 calculators in existence that have worked for ages?

Do those calculators factor in transmissions, drag and drivetrains?

And lol @ bringing up the S7... its 600lbs lighter, mid engined, and makes 100 more HP lol. Very relevant.

Its not so much that I disagree that the Z06 has problems, its that you are so terrible at getting your point across. Online trap speed calculators? Lol.