Public Service Announcement

[Catman]

[TBR]

There are no cars on the market that would suit my needs and be affordable for me to have both.  I was pleaing for a new revolution in cars, things that are small, cheap, and efficient.  If they made those now, I wouldn't have to ask for it, would I? 

Jeez, wouldn't it be nice if we all had little machines that could type and keep the information in them instead of paper?

Exactly, you don't want to make sacrifices yet you are asking others to. Not having people hauling ability available whenever you might need it is a sacrfice, a much greater one than if you had chosen a car with a smaller (yet still plenty powerful) engine.

You seem to be under three different impressions, all three of which are false:
1. People very rarely use the cargo and people capacities of their suvs
As I have mentioned, everyone I know uses their vehicle abilities quite frequently

2. Small cars are comfortable for more than 2 people
Not true at all, not even our midsize Outback is comfortable for our family of four

3. It is possible for small commuter cars to make economic sense
Not until gas prices hit and stay at $3.50+.
 

The way to preserve fuel isn't to try to convince people to buy a second car for commuting (very impractical for people that live in the urban and suburban areas and they are the ones with the longest commutes), rather it is to development technology so that vehicles that people like to drive (including crossovers) are more fuel efficent. Mazda and BMW in particular are doing a lot of work in the department, by implementing turbos and direct injection in smaller displacement engines. For example, the CX-7 will get a combined 23 mpg, that is only 1 mpg lower than its closest competitor (and the class's most fuel efficent vehicle) the Murano gets on the highway.

[BRealistic]

There are no cars on the market that would suit my needs and be affordable for me to have both.  I was pleaing for a new revolution in cars, things that are small, cheap, and efficient.  If they made those now, I wouldn't have to ask for it, would I? 

Jeez, wouldn't it be nice if we all had little machines that could type and keep the information in them instead of paper?

On that note- I have said for many years that if Mazda made a Miata coupe with marginally more interior room and a tilt wheel, I would buy it for full msrp. I still stand by that comment. And could you imagine a Miata hatch back (a-la Z3 M3-coupe)?



I don't think Raza purposely is wasting fuel. The problem is that all vehicles cost money to buy and drive and maintain and insure. The difference in total cost to own between an economy car and a car more fun to drive is usually not that big in the grand scheme of things- when all costs are added up. The same is true of driving the same car easily, or driving it in a spirited fashion. Do you buy all of your wardrobe at Wal Mart, or spend a bit more for stuff that is probably less durable but more comfortable and stylish? Are you being wastefull by wearing expensive cloths when working in the yard, or is it wasteful of resources to buy seperate clothess to wear when working? What about if you only actually work three times a year in the yard? Then you must consider entertainment- we as a society spend big bucks on  entertainment. I would rather spend 10 bucks in premium fuel for a Sunday back road blast in my RX-8 than watch a crappy over hyped movie at the theater. It is all a matter of compromises, choices and priorities. But most of the people driving large SUVs bought them because of style and perceived passive safety, not performance. I doubt the average SUV driver gets as much actual driving enjoyment from and entire tank of fuel than I get from a single gallon in my RX-8, which is quite sad when you consider how much time we spend behind the wheel. Who is really wasting their resources more?

[Raza]

There are no cars on the market that would suit my needs and be affordable for me to have both.  I was pleaing for a new revolution in cars, things that are small, cheap, and efficient.  If they made those now, I wouldn't have to ask for it, would I? 

Jeez, wouldn't it be nice if we all had little machines that could type and keep the information in them instead of paper?

Exactly, you don't want to make sacrifices yet you are asking others to. Not having people hauling ability available whenever you might need it is a sacrfice, a much greater one than if you had chosen a car with a smaller (yet still plenty powerful) engine.

You seem to be under three different impressions, all three of which are false:
1. People very rarely use the cargo and people capacities of their suvs
As I have mentioned, everyone I know uses their vehicle abilities quite frequently

2. Small cars are comfortable for more than 2 people
Not true at all, not even our midsize Outback is comfortable for our family of four

3. It is possible for small commuter cars to make economic sense
Not until gas prices hit and stay at $3.50+.
 

The way to preserve fuel isn't to try to convince people to buy a second car for commuting (very impractical for people that live in the urban and suburban areas and they are the ones with the longest commutes), rather it is to development technology so that vehicles that people like to drive (including crossovers) are more fuel efficent. Mazda and BMW in particular are doing a lot of work in the department, by implementing turbos and direct injection in smaller displacement engines. For example, the CX-7 will get a combined 23 mpg, that is only 1 mpg lower than its closest competitor (and the class's most fuel efficent vehicle) the Murano gets on the highway.

1.  Maybe in Texas, because you may or may not have roads down there, I don't know.

2.  I never said that.

3.  It certainly is.  As a long term investment, it makes more sense than hybrid cars.

You said it's impractical for people who live in urban and suburban areas, which is practically everyone, and you're still wrong.  If you have a long commute, then the idea of having a cheap and incredibly efficient car that you wouldn't have to fully replace your current automobile with would be a miracle.  If you live in the city, chances are you don't have a car, or rarely use one, so then you could replace what you already have with a smaller, more needs-based automobile.  

[Raza]

Bryan--the new MX-5 has more interior room and a tilt wheel.  No word on the fixed roof, though.

[TBR]

There are no cars on the market that would suit my needs and be affordable for me to have both.  I was pleaing for a new revolution in cars, things that are small, cheap, and efficient.  If they made those now, I wouldn't have to ask for it, would I? 

Jeez, wouldn't it be nice if we all had little machines that could type and keep the information in them instead of paper?

Exactly, you don't want to make sacrifices yet you are asking others to. Not having people hauling ability available whenever you might need it is a sacrfice, a much greater one than if you had chosen a car with a smaller (yet still plenty powerful) engine.

You seem to be under three different impressions, all three of which are false:
1. People very rarely use the cargo and people capacities of their suvs
As I have mentioned, everyone I know uses their vehicle abilities quite frequently

2. Small cars are comfortable for more than 2 people
Not true at all, not even our midsize Outback is comfortable for our family of four

3. It is possible for small commuter cars to make economic sense
Not until gas prices hit and stay at $3.50+.
 

The way to preserve fuel isn't to try to convince people to buy a second car for commuting (very impractical for people that live in the urban and suburban areas and they are the ones with the longest commutes), rather it is to development technology so that vehicles that people like to drive (including crossovers) are more fuel efficent. Mazda and BMW in particular are doing a lot of work in the department, by implementing turbos and direct injection in smaller displacement engines. For example, the CX-7 will get a combined 23 mpg, that is only 1 mpg lower than its closest competitor (and the class's most fuel efficent vehicle) the Murano gets on the highway.

1.  Maybe in Texas, because you may or may not have roads down there, I don't know.

2.  I never said that.

3.  It certainly is.  As a long term investment, it makes more sense than hybrid cars.

1. I was talking specifically about people and cargo hauling, not offroading.

2. That is certainly the implication I got, pretty much any parent carrys 2+ kids everyday and once they get older a small car just won't work.

3.  They might make more sense then hybrids, but if you run the numbers (and I have) you will save money by adding a commuter car to your garage only with a few models (the Scion xA saved the most, and even then once you consider insurance and registration it might cost you a little over the long run). Telling everyone to add a car to their  garage just doesn't make economic sense, even if we got reallu little cars like the Smart ForTwo.  Ultimately, the best way to reduce this country's dependence on foreign oil is to simply engineer more fuel efficent vehicles.

[Raza]

1.  I was implying that Texas is behind the rest of the country technologically, socially, and in any other way you can think of.  It's a blanket statement about the south, really.

2.  Maybe you should read the article first.  I specifically stated the use of small cars for people who drive primarily alone.  I didn't want to replace all the vehicles in the country with ForTwos.

3.  The cheapest car on the market is around 9K.  I'm talking about cars that would conceivable cost half that.

[TBR]

1.  I was implying that Texas is behind the rest of the country technologically, socially, and in any other way you can think of.  It's a blanket statement about the south, really.

2.  Maybe you should read the article first.  I specifically stated the use of small cars for people who drive primarily alone.  I didn't want to replace all the vehicles in the country with ForTwos.

3.  The cheapest car on the market is around 9K.  I'm talking about cars that would conceivable cost half that.

1. What the hell does that have to do with anything? And, it simply isn't true either.

2. I did read the article and you suggested replacing suvs with ForFours.

3.  Can't be done.  

[Raza]

Sure it can.  If they sell cars for 5 thousand pounds in England, using similar technology, shared platforms, parts bins, and existing engineering, they can sell the cars for very, very cheap.  

[mazda6er]

Merry Christmas guys.

[ifcar]

Sure it can.  If they sell cars for 5 thousand pounds in England, using similar technology, shared platforms, parts bins, and existing engineering, they can sell the cars for very, very cheap.

What car is that? Would it pass US emissions and safety regulations?

[Yoshi]

Very late to the party, but I have a question...

Raza wasn't it you who mauled the Scion xB in a review a few months back? It was someone at this site, I don't recall who, sorry.

Here we have a vehicle that has:

- tremendous hauling capacity for people or stuff
- tremendous milage (full disclosure -- I own one and get 36 mpg averaged over 18 months)
- tremendous value -- about $15k base with everything but the showpiece add-ons (colored lights, bodykits, etc>) standard

It's a perfect city and/or commuting car (per my 20 mile commute and home in downtown Chicago). I pay less for fuel and parking (seeing as I can squeeze in many tiny spots) and don't drive a car that I see coming and going.

It seems to me that there are many vehicles available that fulfill what you're calling for. And you have the Yaris and the new Nissan coming. The problem is that you want these companies to invest billions in them to also make them handle like a Lotus.

Compromise is everything.

Oh, and read this article please: WP:This Isn't Your Dady's Compact Car

It contains the numbers to show that U.S. consumers are already heading in the direction you're calling for.

[Raza]

Yes, I did tear apart the xB because it was rubbish wrapped in marketing and it is selling in droves.  

I'm talking about cars that go beyond what is on the market now.

[Run Away]

You're completely contradicting yourself.
IMO, you would have been better off not writting that article, because you obviously don't feel the way the person who wrote the article does.

You write an article blasting SUVs for their wastefullness, yet you're looking to buy a rather large 2 door with a 6.0L V8, a high-performance version of an engine used in many SUVs.
You're all talk.

[Yoshi]

Yes, I did tear apart the xB because it was rubbish wrapped in marketing and it is selling in droves.  

I'm talking about cars that go beyond what is on the market now.

Raza, you can't seem to articulate what you want at all. I mean no offense by that, but it's true.

And despite the Automobear tagline "Unique and Supported Automotive Analysis," you have neither supported your supposition with any data nor have you anylized anything but your own gut reactions.

Small car sales are increasing in the U.S. as SUV sales are decreasing. More compact vehicles are being brought here -- not only by Japan, mind you, there are thousands of orders for FourTwos sitting in limbo right now. the U.S. consumer is moving toward smaller cars just as they did in late 70s and early 80s. That is what the numbers say. Will the trend turn back around? Possibly, if Detroit again find more bang for its buck in SUVs.

And lest we forget, Smart is a failing enterprise even in Europe. And the Roadster you are enamoured with maybe the worst value on the road right now.  You may not like the xB, but the single biggest small car market in the world is Japan, and xB-like (but smaller) kei cars have been the saving grace of that overcrowded nation.

And speaking of your beloved European manufacturers, why not also decry the "arms race" in displacement? What justification is there for all those gas sucking, gigantic V-8s and V-10s the Germans so love?

[ifcar]

Sure it can.  If they sell cars for 5 thousand pounds in England, using similar technology, shared platforms, parts bins, and existing engineering, they can sell the cars for very, very cheap.

What car is that? Would it pass US emissions and safety regulations?

...

Yoshi, if you haven't noticed yet, Raza isn't exactly the normal consumer. He hates some cars because of the other people who drive them, or the marketing statement that they make or he thinks they make, regardless of how they drive. And he hates essentially everything else that doesn't have some level of sport. The xB fails him on both counts, and as someone who almost ended up with a Lotus Elise as an only car and now seems ready to be picking up a GTO, practicality, price, and fuel economy aren't going to resonate with him.

[Yoshi]

I appreciate and realize that. All I ask is that if he is going to write a piece and portray it as a revelation he stand by it's main thesis and perhaps back it up with a fact or two.

Again, no insult meant, and Raza did ask for commentary and thoughts. But it doesn't seem that he likes the answer to his own question. Why don't people move from SUVs to more practical, efficient cars? They are, he doesn't like what they're moving to.

He wants a $5k Elise, which just shows ignorance as to the cost of engineering a car like that.

Raza, you're a fine, actually very good, writer from a lingustic standpoint, but you need to think your pieces through in greater detail. They're rife with internal logic conflicts.

[BRealistic]

Sure it can.  If they sell cars for 5 thousand pounds in England, using similar technology, shared platforms, parts bins, and existing engineering, they can sell the cars for very, very cheap.

What car is that? Would it pass US emissions and safety regulations?

...

Yoshi, if you haven't noticed yet, Raza isn't exactly the normal consumer. He hates some cars because of the other people who drive them, or the marketing statement that they make or he thinks they make, regardless of how they drive. And he hates essentially everything else that doesn't have some level of sport. The xB fails him on both counts, and as someone who almost ended up with a Lotus Elise as an only car and now seems ready to be picking up a GTO, practicality, price, and fuel economy aren't going to resonate with him.

While I agree that Raza was way 'out there' with his XB review, I don't think it is fair to say that he is nothing like a normal consumer. As a matter of fact, I would suggest that most buyers are so completely blinded by personal bias that they don't even bother test driving vehicles that may actually meet their needs better for less money than what they buy- based purely on brand or model image. We all have bias- even you Ifcar. You tend to be like the Borg- completely no emotion in the product- just the raw data. (I am exaggerating to make a point, so please don't get too defensive).

[93JC]

We all have bias- even you Ifcar. You tend to be like the Borg- completely no emotion in the product- just the raw data. (I am exaggerating to make a point, so please don't get too defensive).

Exagerrating? Seems dead-on to me.

I'm not joking either. That analogy fits him perfectly.

[Catman]

We all have bias- even you Ifcar. You tend to be like the Borg- completely no emotion in the product- just the raw data. (I am exaggerating to make a point, so please don't get too defensive).

Exagerrating? Seems dead-on to me.

I'm not joking either. That analogy fits him perfectly.

Hmm, I wish I had thought of that. <_<

[BRealistic]

We all have bias- even you Ifcar. You tend to be like the Borg- completely no emotion in the product- just the raw data. (I am exaggerating to make a point, so please don't get too defensive).

Exagerrating? Seems dead-on to me.

I'm not joking either. That analogy fits him perfectly.

Oh jeez- well, let's see if Ifcar can take a joke.  :P









Ifcar seven of eight says: Drive an XB, or you will be assimilated.

[Catman]

We all have bias- even you Ifcar. You tend to be like the Borg- completely no emotion in the product- just the raw data. (I am exaggerating to make a point, so please don't get too defensive).

Exagerrating? Seems dead-on to me.

I'm not joking either. That analogy fits him perfectly.

Oh jeez- well, let's see if Ifcar can take a joke.  :P









Ifcar seven on eight says: Drive an XB, or you will be assimilated.

He'll be alright.  If's heard worse.  Deep down inside he's a party animal waiting to come out.  

[mazda6er]

Word on the street is he gets pretty wild when he's liquored up.

[footoflead]

Word on the street is he gets pretty wild when he's liquored up.

or when hes been on the bong a little tooo long  

[BRealistic]

Word on the street is he gets pretty wild when he's liquored up.

Well, after having a minivan for a short time (trade to sell), I can honestly say you can bring the party with you, and cops don't look at old clean obviously all stock Caravans too closely.  

[mazda6er]

Word on the street is he gets pretty wild when he's liquored up.

Well, after having a minivan for a short time (trade to sell), I can honestly say you can bring the party with you, and cops don't look at old clean obviously all stock Caravans too closely.

Yeah man, it's those blown, riced-out Caravans you've got to watch out for.  :P  

[BRealistic]

Word on the street is he gets pretty wild when he's liquored up.

Well, after having a minivan for a short time (trade to sell), I can honestly say you can bring the party with you, and cops don't look at old clean obviously all stock Caravans too closely.

Yeah man, it's those blown, riced-out Caravans you've got to watch out for.  :P

No, I said clean and stock.

No dirt on the glass.

No mud covering the license tag.

No dark tinted glass.

No spinners.

No Spanish decals.

No pot symbols.

No stereo stickers.

No obviously used/stolen mismatched wheels and tires.

No tassels hanging from the headliner.

 

[mazda6er]

Word on the street is he gets pretty wild when he's liquored up.

Well, after having a minivan for a short time (trade to sell), I can honestly say you can bring the party with you, and cops don't look at old clean obviously all stock Caravans too closely.

Yeah man, it's those blown, riced-out Caravans you've got to watch out for.  :P

No, I said clean and stock.

No dirt on the glass.

No mud covering the license tag.

No dark tinted glass.

No spinners.

No Spanish decals.

No pot symbols.

No stereo stickers.

No obviously used/stolen mismatched wheels and tires.

No tassels hanging from the headliner.

:D I'm just kidding.

Find a "Proud parent of a <insert school name here> honor student" decal and it doesn't even have to be clean.    

[ifcar]

I have some old "I gave money to the police" stickers on the windows, that must count the same. :)

[Tom]

I have some old "I gave money to the police" stickers on the windows, that must count the same. :)

Good old Ifcar can take a joke with the best of 'em