Audi A4

[Raza]

http://wot.motortrend.com/2017_audi_s4_debuts_with_354_hp_drops_manual_option.html

Boo. Another one bites the dust.

[Rich]

C&D did a road test in their latest issue.  Said it was competent with a great interior.

$57K as tested.  This shit has gotten out of control.  IIRC the midsizers from about 10 years ago (which the 4/3/C are now the size of) weren't even this expensive.

Something else stood out to me in the specs:  iron block. 

[MX793]

Iron block on a boosted motor doesn't surprise me.  Ford started using iron blocks for some of their newer Ecoboost lines (the new 2.7TT is iron).

[MexicoCityM3]

C&D did a road test in their latest issue.  Said it was competent with a great interior.

$57K as tested.  This shit has gotten out of control.  IIRC the midsizers from about 10 years ago (which the 4/3/C are now the size of) weren't even this expensive.

Something else stood out to me in the specs:  iron block. 

Inflation man.

[Rich]

Iron block on a boosted motor doesn't surprise me.  Ford started using iron blocks for some of their newer Ecoboost lines (the new 2.7TT is iron).

In a luxury car from a company that advertises as truth in engineering.  You'd think they'd use iron liners in an aluminum block. 

That a brand new luxury/premium car has an iron block like a mainstream truck doesn't say much for their tag line

[MX793]

Iron doesn't necessarily mean low tech.  Ford is using compacted graphite iron, which is a bit more advanced than what your average cast iron stove is made from.  High toughness (more so than aluminum), good at handling heat, and fairly low weight.  They use it in racing engines.

[12,000 RPM]

Inflation man.

You get a lot more for your $$$ too. I think people are looking at it wrong. What we consider an A4 is now called the A3. 2 series coupe is the exact same size as an E46 coupe. My Civic is the same size inside as the first midsize Accords. Etc. When you look at what you can actually get for your $$$$ cars are way cheaper than they used to be,.

[12,000 RPM]

Iron doesn't necessarily mean low tech.  Ford is using compacted graphite iron, which is a bit more advanced than what your average cast iron stove is made from.  High toughness (more so than aluminum), good at handling heat, and fairly low weight.  They use it in racing engines.

Aluminum is still pretty good though. BMW uses it for all their turbo engines from what I remember. I'm watching a TST one take video now of an 800+ HP 335i. GTI is <3000lbs in a lot of trims though so I guess it's no biggie.

[Rich]

You get a lot more for your $$$ too. I think people are looking at it wrong. What we consider an A4 is now called the A3. 2 series coupe is the exact same size as an E46 coupe. My Civic is the same size inside as the first midsize Accords. Etc. When you look at what you can actually get for your $$$$ cars are way cheaper than they used to be,.

IIRC the midsizers from about 10 years ago (which the 4/3/C are now the size of) weren't even this expensive.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/leave-the-iron-on-ford-buries-new-age-iron-in-its-aluminum-intensive-2015-f-150

Because Ford is using CGI, its new V-6 is tougher, more ­compact, and less expensive than the all-aluminum alternative.

Sooooo, the advantage is that it's more compact?  Audi doesn't even go to the extremes of using an aluminum cradle.  Maybe they used the $$$ on the interior rather than powertrain...

[SJ_GTI]

C&D did a road test in their latest issue.  Said it was competent with a great interior.

$57K as tested.  This shit has gotten out of control.  IIRC the midsizers from about 10 years ago (which the 4/3/C are now the size of) weren't even this expensive.

Something else stood out to me in the specs:  iron block.

MSRP on my car when I bought it (new) was ~55k (I think I paid like ~52k or something like that). I bought the higher trim level with the bigger wheels, high end audio, etc... (but didn't get the sport differential, which I somewhat regret). Its crazy that a standard A4 is more expensive now. I would guess the new one has a few features mine doesn't, but I doubt it is anything I would get much usefulness from.

[SJ_GTI]

You get a lot more for your $$$ too. I think people are looking at it wrong. What we consider an A4 is now called the A3. 2 series coupe is the exact same size as an E46 coupe. My Civic is the same size inside as the first midsize Accords. Etc. When you look at what you can actually get for your $$$$ cars are way cheaper than they used to be,.

The comparison makes sense for the Accord/Civic, but for Audi it isn't as straightforward. The A4 has always had a longitudinally mounted engine with a torsen center differential with true AWD (50/50 power split F/R, although S4's now get 40/60 F/R). The A3, which is physically the same size, has transversely mounted engine and a haldex AWD system that typically sends ~90% of its power to the front wheels. While this type of AWD is still definitely better than basic FWD it is a step down from the torsen system (which is why the A4/A6/A8 all still use the "old" setup).

Also worth noting that BMW's new X1 and upcoming new 1-series will be using a FWD architecture. Hopefully the 2-series stays RWD, but BMW is definitely moving in a FWD direction. So while the 1-series will be sized equivalently to the old 3-series sedans, it will not have the same handling characteristics.

MB has also started the move to FWD. The CLA and GLA are FWD based with AWD optional.

[MX793]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/leave-the-iron-on-ford-buries-new-age-iron-in-its-aluminum-intensive-2015-f-150

Sooooo, the advantage is that it's more compact?  Audi doesn't even go to the extremes of using an aluminum cradle.  Maybe they used the $$$ on the interior rather than powertrain...

Bear in mind that 2.0T isn't a bespoke Audi engine.  It's part of the VW corporate parts bin, used in more plebian VWs and Skoda's as well as premium Audis.  Cost matters in those lesser brands.  Developing a more expensive, all aluminum 4-banger just for Audi doesn't make a lot of sense when the gains would amount to maybe 50 lbs of weight savings.

[SJ_GTI]

MSRP on my car when I bought it (new) was ~55k (I think I paid like ~52k or something like that). I bought the higher trim level with the bigger wheels, high end audio, etc... (but didn't get the sport differential, which I somewhat regret). Its crazy that a standard A4 is more expensive now. I would guess the new one has a few features mine doesn't, but I doubt it is anything I would get much usefulness from.

Just checked my old posting history, paid closer to ~53k:

FWIW, I have put down a deposit on the following car:

2010 Audi S4, 6-speed manual
Exterior: Sprint Blue Pearl Effect
Interior: Black and Silver Leather
Prestige Model
Silk Nappa Leather
Carbon Atlas Interior Inlays

MSRP: 54,800 + Taxes and Fees
Selling Price: 52,700 + Taxes and Fees

Will still probably take a couple of weeks to go get it, but I pretty much got exactly what I want. The only thing I would have done different when building it on the website was to not purchase the carbon inlays.

Can't wait to pick it up!

[MexicoCityM3]

Bear in mind that 2.0T isn't a bespoke Audi engine.  It's part of the VW corporate parts bin, used in more plebian VWs and Skoda's as well as premium Audis.  Cost matters in those lesser brands.  Developing a more expensive, all aluminum 4-banger just for Audi doesn't make a lot of sense when the gains would amount to maybe 50 lbs of weight savings.

Is there even such a thing as a "bespoke" Audi engine? 90%+ of their sales come from cars with engines that you could as easily get in a half price Skoda, let alone a VW.

[MX793]

Is there even such a thing as a "bespoke" Audi engine? 90%+ of their sales come from cars with engines that you could as easily get in a half price Skoda, let alone a VW.

True.  Though some higher end Audis are fitted with engines only used in premium VWAG products.  The 4.2 V8, V10, and W12, for example.  And I think the Turbo I5 in the TTRS is unique to Audi (recognizing that the NA version is used by lesser brands).

[12,000 RPM]

The V10 and I5 are quasi related... same bore/stroke and apparently the heads have the same castings.

[MX793]

The V10 and I5 are quasi related... same bore/stroke and apparently the heads have the same castings.

My understanding is that the VW I5 was created by adding a cylinder to their 2.0 I4 rather than being half of their V10.  That it has common bore spacing and can use similar heads to the V10 is a happy coincidence.  Or VW uses certain standard geometries across multiple engine lines.

[Galaxy]

The current VW designed I4s use aluminum, the Audi designed ones ( such as the one in question here) use graphite iron. Both are used by both companies, as well as others in the VW Group. The reason Audi gives for using an iron based design, is better acoustic damping, as well as allowing thinner engine walls. The one in question here (EA 888 3b) is 3mm thick. I believe the VW version is 6mm thick.

[GoCougs]

Just checked my old posting history, paid closer to ~53k:

$53k six years ago is ~$58k today, and by using Audi's 2016 S4 calculator, the equivalent car in MY2016 is $57k.

The base MSRP for the 2017 A4 awd is $40k. It is the fully loaded A4, including a goofy $2,000 interior leather package, that is $54k.

Many models just keep pace with inflation, which is a pretty good deal, considering the advancements in safety, tech, economy and performance (well, sans the proliferation of turbo 4s in the poser class ).

[SJ_GTI]

$53k six years ago is ~$58k today, and by using Audi's 2016 S4 calculator, the equivalent car in MY2016 is $57k.

The base MSRP for the 2017 A4 awd is $40k. It is the fully loaded A4, including a goofy $2,000 interior leather package, that is $54k.

Many models just keep pace with inflation, which is a pretty good deal, considering the advancements in safety, tech, economy and performance (well, sans the proliferation of turbo 4s in the poser class ).

FWIW, as posted, MSRP was actually 54,800 in 2010, so inflation was more like ~2400 over 6 years (for an equivalently options 2016 S4). I agree, not bad.

My post above more surprised at how expensive the new A4 is. When I was looking at A4's when I bought my car I was looking at prices in the mid 40's for an equivalently equipped A4. Using the build function on Audi's website I would end up with a model MSRP of ~49,325. They do offer a ton more options nowadays it seems, some of which sound nice but I wouldn't pay for.

edit: Actually part of the problem is that there is no more manual options, which probably adds a good ~2k to the price.

[12,000 RPM]

The A3 is still a factor IMO. That, like the CLA for the C class, enabled Audi to push the price and size of the A4 up 3/4 a class. Without that they would have to employ a 320i strategy which would probably yield lower profits.

[giant_mtb]

The current VW designed I4s use aluminum, the Audi designed ones ( such as the one in question here) use graphite iron. Both are used by both companies, as well as others in the VW Group. The reason Audi gives for using an iron based design, is better acoustic damping, as well as allowing thinner engine walls. The one in question here (EA 888 3b) is 3mm thick. I believe the VW version is 6mm thick.

Always crazy to think how thin some cylinder/other walls actually are inside of an engine.

[12,000 RPM]

Wow, like 20 PSI out of the box with a 3mm cylinder wall. When the Germans get it right they get it RIGHT

[MX793]

Wow, like 20 PSI out of the box with a 3mm cylinder wall. When the Germans get it right they get it RIGHT

The cylinder walls are more than 3mm (82.5mm bore and 88mm spacing).

[12,000 RPM]

The cylinder walls are more than 3mm (82.5mm bore and 88mm spacing).

That's still less than 1/4" man. I remember back in my Accord days... F22/H22/K-series and the F in the S2000 all have 94mm bore spacing, and the biggest bores they sent out of the factory was 87mm.... and that was N/A. Piston loads in that plane are probably low but the combustion pressure and heat cycles under boost seem pretty intense

[MX793]

Doesn't take much thickness to hold a lot of pressure.  How thick are the walls on a propane tank?  .062?  Those have a design burst pressure of around 900 psi or more.

[MrH]

I'm with Cougs.  This is the poser class   I'm just not interested.  You get 90% of the car for half the price with a loaded V6 Accord.

[GoCougs]

We can now safely and confidently throw the stripper turbo 4 midsize luxury sedans (A6 2.0T, 528i, etc.) into the poser class, and of course let's not forget the A3, CLA, and 2er, and once we throw in the cherry on top that is maintenance and reliability issues, it's all a significant indictment on the US auto industry and US culture as a whole...

[SJ_GTI]

We can now safely and confidently throw the stripper turbo 4 midsize luxury sedans (A6 2.0T, 528i, etc.) into the poser class, and of course let's not forget the A3, CLA, and 2er, and once we throw in the cherry on top that is maintenance and reliability issues, it's all a significant indictment on the US auto industry and US culture as a whole...

I am not sure what point you are making. The Accord/Camry/Malibu/Fusion cars vastly outsell the "poser class" cars above. Are you saying this is a bad thing and that the "poser class" cars should be selling more?

[12,000 RPM]

I'm with Cougs.  This is the poser class   I'm just not interested.  You get 90% of the car for half the price with a loaded V6 Accord.

You could have had 90% of your Genesis for 3/4 the price with a loaded V6 Accord... why didn't you go that route?

The compact luxury cars generally have way better driving dynamics and feel than the Accord, which is a cough and fart away from being a full sizer (and not everyone buys cars by the lb). The midsizers have $15-20K worth of refinement and build quality over the Accord, with in many cases (GS, XF, CTS etc) having significantly better dynamics and feel as well. Plus those 4 banger midsizers are about as fast as those V8 midsizers from ~10-15 years ago while getting like double the gas mileage and not giving up much in refinement. The whole "poser class" complaint doesn't hold water, especially from a dude who drives and is shopping for a poser class whip and another guy who bought a store brand E class