Audi A4

[GoCougs]

I am not sure what point you are making. The Accord/Camry/Malibu/Fusion cars vastly outsell the "poser class" cars above. Are you saying this is a bad thing and that the "poser class" cars should be selling more?

No, the point I am making is the poser class is sucky and 90% of its buyers are much better off in a loaded Camcord (sans of course the pseudo validation via badge snobbery).

[2o6]

Store Brand E-class!!!!! 

[SJ_GTI]

No, the point I am making is the poser class is sucky and 90% of its buyers are much better off in a loaded Camcord (sans of course the pseudo validation via badge snobbery).

So what is the indictment WRT US auto industry (that don't make much in this segment, just Cadillac) and US culture (which seems to vastly prefer the loaded Camcord type of cars, not to mention the Civic/Corolla class)?

[12,000 RPM]

No, the point I am making is the poser class is sucky and 90% of its buyers are much better off in a loaded Camcord (sans of course the pseudo validation via badge snobbery).

Wouldn't YOU be better off in a loaded Camcord? Your G is not even stickshift, and you complain about modern infotainment when the stack in the G's is way worse lol.

[GoCougs]

So what is the indictment WRT US auto industry (that don't make much in this segment, just Cadillac) and US culture (which seems to vastly prefer the loaded Camcord type of cars, not to mention the Civic/Corolla class)?

Narcissism, consumerism, entitlement, insecurity, anxiety.

[MrH]

You could have had 90% of your Genesis for 3/4 the price with a loaded V6 Accord... why didn't you go that route?

The compact luxury cars generally have way better driving dynamics and feel than the Accord, which is a cough and fart away from being a full sizer (and not everyone buys cars by the lb). The midsizers have $15-20K worth of refinement and build quality over the Accord, with in many cases (GS, XF, CTS etc) having significantly better dynamics and feel as well. Plus those 4 banger midsizers are about as fast as those V8 midsizers from ~10-15 years ago while getting like double the gas mileage and not giving up much in refinement. The whole "poser class" complaint doesn't hold water, especially from a dude who drives and is shopping for a poser class whip and another guy who bought a store brand E class

Well, the Genesis had an American style big ass V8 in it.  This poser class doesn't have that save for the AMG/M/RS level.

And I saw the fault of my ways and got rid of the Genesis.  It was a much better value argument than the A4/3-Series/C-class too.  But at the end of the day, a teenie bit more luxury isn't worth the cost of poser class depreciation and reliability.  Give me mainstreamer reliability and costs for a daily driver.

[12,000 RPM]

Well, the Genesis had an American style big ass V8 in it.  This poser class doesn't have that save for the AMG/M/RS level.

And I saw the fault of my ways and got rid of the Genesis.  It was a much better value argument than the A4/3-Series/C-class too.  But at the end of the day, a teenie bit more luxury isn't worth the cost of poser class depreciation and reliability.  Give me mainstreamer reliability and costs for a daily driver.

Genesis needs that V8 to get moving, and it guzzles gas w/reckless abandon to do it. A poser 335i is faster and like 50% more fuel efficient. Genesis has a roomier interior but it's also a cheaper interior that doesn't look anywhere near as good as something like the interior in the IS or C Class. Even w/the discount you got depreciation is still pretty abysmal compared to the class. So on anything beyond a lb of car per $$$ basis something like a Genesis or Accord V6 or w/e is not a better value. By this logic the best car is something like a Grand Caravan. Max metal for min $! Never mind driving dynamics, build quality, design, refinement, depreciation, w/e. Poser class is awesome- awesome enough that Cougs rails against it daily, but drives one and is shopping for another one. If that's not a ringing endorsement I don't know what is

[CaminoRacer]

Does an AMG CLA have enough panache to be elevated out of the class?

[MrH]

Genesis needs that V8 to get moving, and it guzzles gas w/reckless abandon to do it. A poser 335i is faster and like 50% more fuel efficient. Genesis has a roomier interior but it's also a cheaper interior that doesn't look anywhere near as good as something like the interior in the IS or C Class. Even w/the discount you got depreciation is still pretty abysmal compared to the class. So on anything beyond a lb of car per $$$ basis something like a Genesis or Accord V6 or w/e is not a better value. By this logic the best car is something like a Grand Caravan. Max metal for min $! Never mind driving dynamics, build quality, design, refinement, depreciation, w/e. Poser class is awesome- awesome enough that Cougs rails against it daily, but drives one and is shopping for another one. If that's not a ringing endorsement I don't know what is

You're completely missing my point.  I'm not comparing my old Genesis to the poser class.  I'm comparing the Genesis & poser class to the mainstreamers for a daily driver.

Used vs new makes a more interesting argument, but new vs new?  They're just not worth the price premium IMO.

[GoCougs]

Does an AMG CLA have enough panache to be elevated out of the class?

I would say yes, as are others that are top-of-range of the poser class (S3, S4, Q50 RS, 340i, C450) in that there is actually a value/feature proposition there. 

[12,000 RPM]

You're completely missing my point.  I'm not comparing my old Genesis to the poser class.  I'm comparing the Genesis & poser class to the mainstreamers for a daily driver.

Used vs new makes a more interesting argument, but new vs new?  They're just not worth the price premium IMO.

New cars in general aren't worth the depreciation hit over used (though I recently read something about some CPO shenanigans that make for interesting exceptions)

And if we take your argument to its logical conclusion, there's no car worth buying over something like a Honda Fit for a daily driver. Like I said there are plenty of tangibles that could legit sway someone from an Accord V6 to a stripper poseur car. Like I asked from the jump... you would get an Accord V6 over a stickshift 320i? Don't lie now, God is watching.

[MrH]

New cars in general aren't worth the depreciation hit over used (though I recently read something about some CPO shenanigans that make for interesting exceptions)

And if we take your argument to its logical conclusion, there's no car worth buying over something like a Honda Fit for a daily driver. Like I said there are plenty of tangibles that could legit sway someone from an Accord V6 to a stripper poseur car. Like I asked from the jump... you would get an Accord V6 over a stickshift 320i? Don't lie now, God is watching.

New vs new?  Yeah, I would totally get an Accord V6 over a 320i.  Not enough intangibles in a 3-series to overcome the crappy engine and zero options

If you would have said slightly used 335 vs Accord V6, I'd have to think about it a bit.  I think that's the only interesting argument.  They're at least close in price.  Used Accords aren't even in the discussion to me because they depreciate sooooo slow.

[MrH]

Just priced a 340xi.  $58k for what I'd want.  Wowza!

Mack Daddy Accord is like $34k I think.  For a daily driver, it just doesn't make sense to spend $24k more.  That's a 70% increase for slightly better performance and a bunch of feel good intangibles.  And with it comes reliability, maintenance, and depreciation that dwarfs the Accord.

[2o6]

the CLA AMG is trash inside tho

[CaminoRacer]

Does an AMG CLA have enough panache to be elevated out of the class?

I distinctly remember typing "poseur" in this post. Proof that my phone's keyboard has decided to randomly delete words that I type. It's becoming rather annoying.

the CLA AMG is trash inside tho

My boss has one and it's nice.

[12,000 RPM]

New vs new?  Yeah, I would totally get an Accord V6 over a 320i.  Not enough intangibles in a 3-series to overcome the crappy engine and zero options

If you would have said slightly used 335 vs Accord V6, I'd have to think about it a bit.  I think that's the only interesting argument.  They're at least close in price.  Used Accords aren't even in the discussion to me because they depreciate sooooo slow.

Different strokes I guess. I couldn't daily drive an automatic anything and my commute has plenty of varying turns and fun roads. I don't need all the tech. Plus I find the Accord's dash design to be very busy and ugly. True Delta says there's an 8K diff between equally equipped 320is and Accord V6s.... 320i as I'd want it would be about 37 (smartphone integration, sport package, heated seats), and I'd prob spend another $2K or so on springs/shocks/brake pads and a JB4 tune. So more like 3-4K for a car that's much more fun to drive.

What you forgot to include in your Accord price is however much you spent on the S2K. Accord + S2K would still be more reliable, but I'm pretty sure a new Accord V6 + clean S2K = 340xi money. Even if I throw a bike in it's still way less $$$ for way more fun and not much less comfort. Point is the poser class = jack of all trades for people who need practical cars and like driving. Theres no way you could have something like an auto Accord V6 as an only car.

[MexicoCityM3]

Just priced a 340xi.  $58k for what I'd want.  Wowza!

Mack Daddy Accord is like $34k I think.  For a daily driver, it just doesn't make sense to spend $24k more.

Doesn't make sense to you man. It depends on how much you value the differences that do exist.

Specifically, I'd definitely spend the extra an something like a 528i over the Accord. To me it is a much better car.

[GoCougs]

the CLA AMG is trash inside tho

The new Accord is as much luxury as most of the poser class, at least to 90% of buyers.

[Madman]

Store Brand E-class!!!!! 

Agreed.  That's the best description of the Genesis I've seen yet.

I wish I'd thought of it! 

[Raza]

Store Brand E-class!!!!! 

Yeah, that was a good one.   

[Raza]

Just priced a 340xi.  $58k for what I'd want.  Wowza!

Mack Daddy Accord is like $34k I think.  For a daily driver, it just doesn't make sense to spend $24k more.  That's a 70% increase for slightly better performance and a bunch of feel good intangibles.  And with it comes reliability, maintenance, and depreciation that dwarfs the Accord.

This 3 series may not be the best example...but if you think the only differences between a Camry or Accord and a well-appointed 3/A4 are intangibles, you've never driven any of them.  Or, perhaps, you prefer to spec sheet race and don't think how a car drives is important. 

You'd have a better argument if you were talking about legit near-luxury cars like the GTI or....well, that segment is basically dead now, with Acuras and Volvos sucking and Saab dead (though the S60 might be a viable option if you don't want a manual).

Accord and Camry are fast food.  Yes, you can survive eating only that, but it's hardly steak tartare and truffle mac. 

[Galaxy]

Wow, like 20 PSI out of the box with a 3mm cylinder wall.

3mm is the nominal crankcase wall.


Anyways. Here is the A5 coupé version.







An attractive car for sure, but a but underwhelming.....like most Audi designs lately.

[Char]

Jetta with an Audi badge.

[12,000 RPM]

This 3 series may not be the best example...but if you think the only differences between a Camry or Accord and a well-appointed 3/A4 are intangibles, you've never driven any of them.

Hell, it doesn't even have to be well appointed. Anyone w/a pulse and brain can tell a 3 series drives differently from an Accord.

[12,000 RPM]

Jetta with an Audi badge.

That will leave your car for dead from a stoplight, and probably around a track too with the same mods.

[Char]

That will leave your car for dead from a stoplight, and probably around a track too with the same mods.

I don't see that happening at all - but even so, it would still be a VW Jetta (Woman's car)

[SJ_GTI]

Anyways. Here is the A5 coupé version.

Very "meh" IMO.

[SJ_GTI]

As for the overall discussion of mainstream vs poser class, I kinda understand what MrH and Gougs are sayings but for me personally I still cannot see myself ever buying in that class. To me AWD/RWD is worth the premium alone, and on top of that I have a strong preference for a manual (which is getting harder to find even in the poser class nowadays). I am not sure what car I would choose today if I was shopping, but certainly when I bought my car there weren't a lot of cars that met my requirements. Even if I settled for an A4 instead of an S4 there weren't really any mainstreamers that could offer the same combination of practicality, style, luxury, and sportiness (includes 6MT/AWD).

If I was buying today I am pretty sure the new A4/S4 (2017) would be eliminated simply due to lack of a manual. I think the top contenders would be 2-series/M2 (main downside being lack of rear doors) or maybe something like a Golf R (ticks off all the boxes, but purchase would depend on the general feel of the car). If I wasn't happy with those my only choice would be to spend the money to move up to either a 335xi (for AWD) or an M3 (if I was OK with RWD), or if I decided to "settle" for an automatic I might look at an S3.

[Char]

As for the overall discussion of mainstream vs poser class, I kinda understand what MrH and Gougs are sayings but for me personally I still cannot see myself ever buying in that class. To me AWD/RWD is worth the premium alone, and on top of that I have a strong preference for a manual (which is getting harder to find even in the poser class nowadays). I am not sure what car I would choose today if I was shopping, but certainly when I bought my car there weren't a lot of cars that met my requirements. Even if I settled for an A4 instead of an S4 there weren't really any mainstreamers that could offer the same combination of practicality, style, luxury, and sportiness (includes 6MT/AWD).

If I was buying today I am pretty sure the new A4/S4 (2017) would be eliminated simply due to lack of a manual. I think the top contenders would be 2-series/M2 (main downside being lack of rear doors) or maybe something like a Golf R (ticks off all the boxes, but purchase would depend on the general feel of the car). If I wasn't happy with those my only choice would be to spend the money to move up to either a 335xi (for AWD) or an M3 (if I was OK with RWD), or if I decided to "settle" for an automatic I might look at an S3.

None of any of that makes any sense to me.

You won't buy a camcord, but you will drive a Golf.

And if you had to settle for a auto, you would buy a S3 over a 235/M2/335i/M3? Uhh...ok. 

[MrH]

Different strokes I guess. I couldn't daily drive an automatic anything and my commute has plenty of varying turns and fun roads. I don't need all the tech. Plus I find the Accord's dash design to be very busy and ugly. True Delta says there's an 8K diff between equally equipped 320is and Accord V6s.... 320i as I'd want it would be about 37 (smartphone integration, sport package, heated seats), and I'd prob spend another $2K or so on springs/shocks/brake pads and a JB4 tune. So more like 3-4K for a car that's much more fun to drive.

What you forgot to include in your Accord price is however much you spent on the S2K. Accord + S2K would still be more reliable, but I'm pretty sure a new Accord V6 + clean S2K = 340xi money. Even if I throw a bike in it's still way less $$$ for way more fun and not much less comfort. Point is the poser class = jack of all trades for people who need practical cars and like driving. Theres no way you could have something like an auto Accord V6 as an only car.

Yeah, the 4Runner + S2000 = 340xi money.  But I have more utility, more fun, more reliability, less depreciation, etc. 

I can't imagine ever spending $37k for a 180 hp 3-series to sit in traffic.  An Accord isn't the same dynamically, but for the daily drive, driving dynamics really aren't at the top of my list.