EPA Going after VW...

[SJ_GTI]

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/autos/epa-cheating-vw/index.html?iid=hp-stack-dom

"The effectiveness of these vehicles' pollution emissions control devices is greatly reduced during all normal driving situations," said the Environmental Protection Agency's notice to the company. "This results in cars that meet emissions standards in the laboratory or testing station, but during normal operation, emit nitrogen oxides at up to 40 times the standard."

Glad I don't own one of these. 

[GoCougs]

What??? Automakers game the tests? Shocking.

[Galaxy]

What??? Automakers game the tests? Shocking.

And they were caught. And this will apparently cost them billions. They lost this game.

[GoCougs]

And they were caught. And this will apparently cost them billions. They lost this game.

All automakers are gaming all tests, so if everyone "loses" does anyone really lose?

[12,000 RPM]

All automakers are gaming all tests

All? Prove it.

[Galaxy]

All automakers are gaming all tests, so if everyone "loses" does anyone really lose?

There is a difference between trying to optimise your products to get a higher score in a test, and what VW allegedly did. Programing your car to shift earlier, or giving vehicle tallllll gearing is fair game imo.

[Payman]

This is not good. Doesn't make me want a TDi any less though.

[Soup DeVille]

And they were caught. And this will apparently cost them billions. They lost this game.

Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.

He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.

[FoMoJo]

It took the EPA long enough to catch them.

[BimmerM3]

Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.

He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.

Optimizing the car to perform under the conditions that it's tested in is one thing. Programming the car so that it actually functions differently only when it's being tested is way slimier.

[GoCougs]

Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.

He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.

EPA is an unchecked hegemony of the state, thusly, surely bet there is some language in some law that forbids such "fraud".

[RomanChariot]

This is not good. Doesn't make me want a TDi any less though.

You might want to get one before they get recalled and "fixed." If VW set their cars up to only engage emissions systems during testing there is a good chance that keeping the system active all of the time has negative effects on the way the car operates.

[Galaxy]

Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.

He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.

If a car manufacturer tweaks a shifting program to pass a test, you are stuck with that same shitty shifting program in your daily driving. What VW apparently did is load up engine mapping that is only used in the EPA test. Apparently they ran the engine rich to get nitrous oxides down. Plus, apparently the EPA enquired in past years why there was an apparent discrepancy and VW allegedly lied in their face. That is also going to be a bitch for them to fix in a recall. They can tune the cars to run rich on the road, but then fuel economy goes down the drain.

EPA is an unchecked hegemony of the state, thusly, surely bet there is some language in some law that forbids such "fraud".

It may be hegemony, and there are surely 1000 ways the EPA can be improved, but in the end without regulation cars today would still pollute like in the 1950s.

[Byteme]

Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.

He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.

I'm not a lawyer.

But, I'd say VW certainly misrepresented it's product to it's customers.  There are many, many car buyers who really do care if their car pollutes excessively and it could be argued they bought the VW product based in part on VW's representations to those customers that the cars met EPA requirements.  The reasonable expectation would be the cars will continuously perform to EPA standards, not just while being tested.  I'd honestly be surprised if we don't see a class action suit against VW come out of this.

[MX793]

If a car manufacturer tweaks a shifting program to pass a test, you are stuck with that same shitty shifting program in your daily driving. What VW apparently did is load up engine mapping that is only used in the EPA test. Apparently they ran the engine rich to get nitrous oxides down. Plus, apparently the EPA enquired in past years why there was an apparent discrepancy and VW allegedly lied in their face. That is also going to be a bitch for them to fix in a recall. They can tune the cars to run rich on the road, but then fuel economy goes down the drain.

Actually, the "fix" is relatively straightforward, just not pleasant for VW or the vehicle owners.  They recall the vehicles and reflash the engine controller to run in "EPA test mode" all the time.  Yes, fuel economy will take a hit.  VW will then probably have to issue new fuel economy estimates and will probably be forced to reimburse owners for the loss in fuel economy.

The question is whether or not the EPA test procedure prohibits programming the car to function differently when it detects that test equipment has been plugged into the ODB-II port.  If there is indeed a loophole there, expect it to be promptly closed.

[shp4man]

I hate diesel cars. noisy stinking, overcomplicated piles of ass. I realize Europeans love the damn things.

[MX793]

Over-complicated?  Definitely mechanically simpler than an Otto engine.

[Eye of the Tiger]

The EPA is obviously the problem, here.  They don't create realistic standards for diesel emissions. Then the govt expects CAFE to be met, as well.

[Byteme]

Over-complicated?  Definitely mechanically simpler than an Otto engine.

Yup, pretty simple.

[ifcar]

Actually, the "fix" is relatively straightforward, just not pleasant for VW or the vehicle owners.  They recall the vehicles and reflash the engine controller to run in "EPA test mode" all the time.  Yes, fuel economy will take a hit.  VW will then probably have to issue new fuel economy estimates and will probably be forced to reimburse owners for the loss in fuel economy.

The question is whether or not the EPA test procedure prohibits programming the car to function differently when it detects that test equipment has been plugged into the ODB-II port.  If there is indeed a loophole there, expect it to be promptly closed.

If EPA test mode has lower emissions but lower fuel economy, it would explain why everyone's VW diesels beat the EPA ratings.

[veeman]

I own a TDI Beetle.  I like the diesel clatter and it suits the old school vibe my car has.  A lot of diesel cars require urea but the ones going to be recalled by VW do not.  I think the new Passat diesel requires urea.

I wonder if the recall will involve adding urea or will that require engine redesign.

Either way, VW was apparently gaming the system bad and they'll pay for it. 

[MX793]

If EPA test mode has lower emissions but lower fuel economy, it would explain why everyone's VW diesels beat the EPA ratings.

That's a good point.  The fuel economy test may also be run with the same ECU mapping as the emissions test.  In which case, VW may not be penalized for overstating EPA mileage estimates and their estimates may still be valid.

[MX793]

I own a TDI Beetle.  I like the diesel clatter and it suits the old school vibe my car has.  A lot of diesel cars require urea but the ones going to be recalled by VW do not.  I think the new Passat diesel requires urea.

I wonder if the recall will involve adding urea or will that require engine redesign.

Either way, VW was apparently gaming the system bad and they'll pay for it. 

Adding urea injection to a car that doesn't already have it (and I don't believe the 2.0 TDI was designed to use it) will not be a simple back-fit.  More likely, if forced to "fix it", they'll re-flash the ECU to use the same engine mapping as what was used to pass the emissions test in the first place.  Much simpler solution to implement.

[Eye of the Tiger]

VW could partner with the ASPCA. Adopt a stray cat. Let it live in car. Inject its urine into the exhaust. Everybody wins.

[shp4man]

Over-complicated?  Definitely mechanically simpler than an Otto engine.

Modern turbo diesel cars and light trucks are heavily complicated and damn expensive to fix. All electronic controls/complicated, expensive emissions systems. Gas engines are way less complicated, even turbos and direct injection ones. 

[veeman]

Adding urea injection to a car that doesn't already have it (and I don't believe the 2.0 TDI was designed to use it) will not be a simple back-fit.  More likely, if forced to "fix it", they'll re-flash the ECU to use the same engine mapping as what was used to pass the emissions test in the first place.  Much simpler solution to implement.

Thanks!!  Then that would suck because a big psychological draw is not having to refuel as often.  I get over 500 miles a tankful.  If performance goes noticeably down that would not be acceptable either.  Looks like I'll be joining a class action lawsuit if I don't get adequate renumeration. 

[Soup DeVille]

Optimizing the car to perform under the conditions that it's tested in is one thing. Programming the car so that it actually functions differently only when it's being tested is way slimier.

Slimy, yes. Illegal? Not quite cut and dried.

[Soup DeVille]

I'm not a lawyer.

But, I'd say VW certainly misrepresented it's product to it's customers.  There are many, many car buyers who really do care if their car pollutes excessively and it could be argued they bought the VW product based in part on VW's representations to those customers that the cars met EPA requirements.  The reasonable expectation would be the cars will continuously perform to EPA standards, not just while being tested.  I'd honestly be surprised if we don't see a class action suit against VW come out of this.

I would see that as a case that needs to be presented by a group representing he owners; not by the EPA.

But, I'm no lawyer either.

[GoCougs]

Over-complicated?  Definitely mechanically simpler than an Otto engine.

Not at all, if it's a N/A gasoline engine and about even if it's not.

[280Z Turbo]

http://youtu.be/-8zumymOPvI

VW is like Tom Brady