EPA Going after VW...

[CALL_911]

Unless this issue, or its fix, somehow costs owners money, compromises the car's reliability, majorly compromises fuel economy, or creates a major inconvenience, I doubt the hit to their reputation with consumers will be all that bad.  It's not like these cars pose an imminent threat to their owners (e.g. unintended acceleration, randomly catching fire, etc).

I agree

[veeman]

Once I get the required recall, my mileage will drop and/or I'll have less power.  There will be greater wear on the engine as well.  I'll probably end up with a gas card from VW.

No matter what, there is nothing good which will come to a current TDI owner and most will jump ship when it comes time to switch cars. 

There's not going to be any buyback.  And the car just took a nosedive on the resale market, unless VW decides to quit selling TDI.

The only feasible thing VW could do to make it up is substantially increase my warranty.  I doubt they will do that however...

[veeman]

Unless this issue, or its fix, somehow costs owners money, compromises the car's reliability, majorly compromises fuel economy, or creates a major inconvenience, I doubt the hit to their reputation with consumers will be all that bad.  It's not like these cars pose an imminent threat to their owners (e.g. unintended acceleration, randomly catching fire, etc).

One or more of those things you mention will happen however because, otherwise, there would have been no reason for VW to take such a risky gamble and cheat.

[280Z Turbo]

I wish the EPA would just fine them, make them fix it on new models within 6 months, and get it over with. All of this vindictive grandstanding is unproductive and doesn't do anybody any good.

The amont of extra pollution is negligible.

[Cookie Monster]

I wish the EPA would just fine them, make them fix it on new models within 6 months, and get it over with. All of this vindictive grandstanding is unproductive and doesn't do anybody any good.

The amont of extra pollution is negligible.

That just sets a precedent for other manufacturers to try and sneak around the system, knowing that if they get caught it's just a simple fine and fix. I think the EPA wants to make an example of VW to keep their (perceived) power/authority over automakers.

[12,000 RPM]

Unless this issue, or its fix, somehow costs owners money, compromises the car's reliability, majorly compromises fuel economy, or creates a major inconvenience, I doubt the hit to their reputation with consumers will be all that bad.  It's not like these cars pose an imminent threat to their owners (e.g. unintended acceleration, randomly catching fire, etc).

Again people forget how god awful VWAG (and Mercedes) cars were from like 1998-2005. With VWAG pretty much every turbocharged engine had some serious issue, usually related to oil. I think all VWAG cars had ignition coil problems. MB had issues like rusting shock tower perches and just generally unacceptable design/reliability issues. And yet people still roll the dice on them used and remember the cars fondly. Problems weren't quite "malaise era domestic" level but they were damn close and worse IMO because the cars were so much more expensive and designed with "German Engineering".

So just like with Toyota and the "unintended acceleration" BS or even GM with the ignition recalls I think they should be OK. VWAG's brands are strong as fuck, their cars are desirable, and I don't think resale values will remain low. Those are pretty much the only 3 things that matter for selling cars these days.

[2o6]

I can't picture any sort of class action netting anything more than Hyundai's MPG fiasco from a year or so ago.


Everyone has forgotten about that, seems like.



Besides, doesn't the EPA sticker number show the MPG when the car isn't cheating? So there's going to be a negligible difference, since these cars generally beat EPA testing, and probably still will.

[2o6]

Once I get the required recall, my mileage will drop and/or I'll have less power.  There will be greater wear on the engine as well.  I'll probably end up with a gas card from VW.

No matter what, there is nothing good which will come to a current TDI owner and most will jump ship when it comes time to switch cars. 

There's not going to be any buyback.  And the car just took a nosedive on the resale market, unless VW decides to quit selling TDI.

The only feasible thing VW could do to make it up is substantially increase my warranty.  I doubt they will do that however...

I think this is all drastically overblown.


VW cheated, and owners should be compensated, but it's not like you were advertised getting Bugatti Veyron power and now you've got the power of a 3cyl Mirage.


I feel like the differences will be negligible at best.

[MX793]

I can't picture any sort of class action netting anything more than Hyundai's MPG fiasco from a year or so ago.


Everyone has forgotten about that, seems like.



Besides, doesn't the EPA sticker number show the MPG when the car isn't cheating? So there's going to be a negligible difference, since these cars generally beat EPA testing, and probably still will.

Depending on what triggers test mode, it may have been in test mode during fuel economy testing.  In which case, assuming the fix is to permanently use the test mode ECU map, published fuel economy figures will be unchanged and there would be no penalties like what happened with Hyundai..  Owners will simply go from beating EPA to getting EPA mileage.

[Morris Minor]

I wish the EPA would just fine them, make them fix it on new models within 6 months, and get it over with. All of this vindictive grandstanding is unproductive and doesn't do anybody any good.

The amont of extra pollution is negligible.

Agreed. The prospect of the EPA swelling its coffers by sucking the life out of VW does not thrill me. It's a serious crime, but not a capital crime.

The EPA is not a paragon of virtue, to put it mildly...

[2o6]

Depending on what triggers test mode, it may have been in test mode during fuel economy testing.  In which case, assuming the fix is to permanently use the test mode ECU map, published fuel economy figures will be unchanged and there would be no penalties like what happened with Hyundai..  Owners will simply go from beating EPA to getting EPA mileage.

Nothing triggers test mode. Test mode is already active when the car is at the EPA's testing facilities.



I read that most cars have a "test mode" that EPA and other places use, so that way the computer doesn't get confused if there's certain conditions that might confuse the ECU (like one set of wheels moving but not another)

The test mode isn't secret, but the behavior in test mode is.

[AutobahnSHO]

Talked to a guy with a (2012?) TDI wagon yesterday, he was laughing at it, figures it's not a big deal, still likes the car.

[12,000 RPM]

Agreed. The prospect of the EPA swelling its coffers by sucking the life out of VW does not thrill me. It's a serious crime, but not a capital crime.

The EPA is not a paragon of virtue, to put it mildly...

If they can't levy fines how can they ever be effective?

[Byteme]

Depending on what triggers test mode, it may have been in test mode during fuel economy testing.  In which case, assuming the fix is to permanently use the test mode ECU map, published fuel economy figures will be unchanged and there would be no penalties like what happened with Hyundai..  Owners will simply go from beating EPA to getting EPA mileage.

Don't forget that the EPA only tests about 15 percent of the car models available for sale. the EPA publishes the manufacturer's estimates for the remaining 85 percent.  So who, other than the manufacturer, knows what was going on during that testing.

[MX793]

Don't forget that the EPA only tests about 15 percent of the car models available for sale. the EPA publishes the manufacturer's estimates for the remaining 85 percent.  So who, other than the manufacturer, knows what was going on during that testing.

The manufacturer is supposed to use EPA procedures when determining fuel economy.  You're correct that the EPA only tests a small sample themselves, though I believe they audit test reports.

[SJ_GTI]

Agreed. The prospect of the EPA swelling its coffers by sucking the life out of VW does not thrill me. It's a serious crime, but not a capital crime.

The EPA is not a paragon of virtue, to put it mildly...

The EPA doesn't have coffers. neither the employees nor the department itself gets to keep or use the fines they collect.

[SJ_GTI]

The manufacturer is supposed to use EPA procedures when determining fuel economy.  You're correct that the EPA only tests a small sample themselves, though I believe they audit test reports.

And of course auditing itself usually just means testing a small % of the results.

[Morris Minor]

If they can't levy fines how can they ever be effective?

Well I supposed they could have mass hangings. But why do you ask that question?

Are you saying a fine that stops short of a mortal blow is not a fine?

[ifcar]

Ah--so I'm pretty sure this explains the recall I got in March. VW wanted to reflash my ECU/ECM to ensure "your vehicle remains compliant with future emissions standards," or something to that affect. I'm 99% sure they were referring to this current debacle, as I passed state inspection right after they performed the recall service. If so, VW has known this issue was in the hopper and had begun taking corrective measures as far back as 6 months ago.

Seems you're right: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/09/22/anatomy-of-volkswagons-deception-the-recall-that-never-fixed-any-cars/

Volkswagen's decision to equip 11 million vehicles with devices to cheat emissions tests worldwide has sent the company into an acute corporate crisis in recent days. But on Dec. 2, 2014, the company assured U.S. and California regulators that its engineers had a straightforward solution.

Volkswagen told officials then that a software change would remedy the overflow of pollution emitted by its diesel cars, according to state and federal letters to the company. At the time, Volkswagen proposed a "voluntary recall" of about 500,000 vehicles. State and federal officials approved the plan.

That fix was either a technical failure or, some officials said, another ruse.

By May of this year, California tests showed that "the recall calibration did reduce emissions to some degree but NOx [nitrogen oxide] emissions were still significantly higher than expected."

The extent of the recall, which is discussed in letters between government and company officials, is unknown. Company officials wouldn't say this week how many recall notification letters Volkswagen issued to consumers, and how many consumers brought their cars in for the purported fix.

But the incident is one of the highlights in what federal and state officials have likened to a cat-and-mouse game between regulators and one of  the world's largest automakers.

"They basically ran out of excuses," said Stanley Young, spokesperson for the California Air Resources Board. "They would say the tests weren't at the right temperature, or some other issue. We had them in [to our offices] several times."

[AutobahnSHO]

The EPA doesn't have coffers. neither the employees nor the department itself gets to keep or use the fines they collect.

But they also "justify" their existence, and can ask for more money/employees...

[SJ_GTI]

But they also "justify" their existence, and can ask for more money/employees...

I am going to guess that the republican controlled House and Senate, which has been reducing the EPA's budget in recent years, will not be giving them more money/employees.

[Morris Minor]

On the bright side of this, I would not mind seeing diesel having its green credentials revoked. They really are a bit smelly & smoky. Last month it was good to get back to Atlanta (not exactly a clean-air paradise itself) after spending a week inhaling diesel smoke in SE England. 

[AutobahnSHO]

I am going to guess that the republican controlled House and Senate, which has been reducing the EPA's budget in recent years, will not be giving them more money/employees.

which means they fight harder to justify their existence?

[SJ_GTI]

which means they fight harder to justify their existence?

OK...? Not even sure what your point is to be honest.

[Rich]

Holy shit, he resigned!

[veeman]

I think this is all drastically overblown.


VW cheated, and owners should be compensated, but it's not like you were advertised getting Bugatti Veyron power and now you've got the power of a 3cyl Mirage.


I feel like the differences will be negligible at best.

I agree that something like this is on par with a fender bender.  Annoying and disheartening but relatively minor inconvenience.  Still good to bitch about it though.  And I want a longer warranty 

[GoCougs]

On the bright side of this, I would not mind seeing diesel having its green credentials revoked. They really are a bit smelly & smoky. Last month it was good to get back to Atlanta (not exactly a clean-air paradise itself) after spending a week inhaling diesel smoke in SE England. 

Couldn't agree more. The US needs fewer diesels and this will most certainly help.

[GoCougs]

The EPA doesn't have coffers. neither the employees nor the department itself gets to keep or use the fines they collect.

Sure they do, and the very worst kind - the near bottomless pit of irrational action (such as a fine of $30,000+ per offending vehicle).

[Laconian]

VW con produced as much extra air pollution as all UK power generation, industry, ag & vehicles

https://boingboing.net/2015/09/23/vw-con-produced-as-much-extra.html

[12,000 RPM]

Well I supposed they could have mass hangings. But why do you ask that question?

Are you saying a fine that stops short of a mortal blow is not a fine?

I'm saying laws and regulations are pointless if there is no way to enforce them. The only way realistic way to do that is through fines.

I do think the process should be more transparent and less arbitrary, but ultimately VW knowingly cheated the system which has consequences.

How exactly would you prefer this all go instead?