2017 Fiat 124 Spider

[MrH]

Well, you seem to be fully aware of the risks () and still choose to do it.  I can respect that.  There's just a lot of people that wouldn't take that risk regardless of how awesome it is.

That's one reason why I don't even want to try it.  If I got a bike, I'd immediately want a faster and faster bike until I inevitably rammed it into a wall going 180 mph.

I worked with a bunch of motorcycle guys at Bilstein.  They'd always ride each other's bikes to test them out.  I watched a friend ride a CBR1000RR that was highly modified just to lunch with us.  We were behind in a car.  Someone pulled out in front of him and cut across three lanes, blocking him entirely.  He had to cut over the double yellow to avoid and almost got in a huge wreck.  That scared the shit out of me.

[Cookie Monster]

Yeah, there's only so much you can do to be safe. I just wear all my gear and try to be careful around cars. I got unlucky with the asshole who turned in front of me but I escaped that with no injury thankfully.

It's when there's no cars around that I end up riding like an idiot, and that's what did me in. The way I was riding, I was bound to crash at some point and I got lucky that the injuries were relatively minor.

I want my next bike to be a 27 hp supermoto so I'm not worried about going too fast.

[CaminoRacer]

I've ridden other bikes, not just mine. Although mine might be slightly more fun than some of the faster bikes, since I can listen to it scream in almost every gear without speeding too badly.

As for safety, you gotta develop a sixth sense for how drivers do stupid things. Usually you can predict it or at least avoid the lane positioning that would put you in the way of it. I do the same in my car (which has zero collision insurance) so I haven't had much trouble on bike. Of course I also try to avoid traffic in the first place, since my bike is a fun toy and traffic isn't a very fun place

[12,000 RPM]

I don't think any of us bikers have downplayed the dangers of riding. It is what it is.

But the significantly higher level of engagement is undeniable. The question is what you are willing to risk to feel it.

If I got a bike, I'd immediately want a faster and faster bike until I inevitably rammed it into a wall going 180 mph.

By this logic you would have been in a Hellcat or 911 Turbo or something of the sort by now. And this comes back to a great thing about bikes. Like my bike.... it's slow for a motorcycle, but I really love its balance. I tried bigger more powerful bikes and I hated how heavy they felt and how they made me tip toe around their power. Given your car trajectory I don't think you would end up on a liter bike or something crazy like that.... you'd probably end up on something like Ragz' track bike with all Ohlins bits.

Re: Me and the Z... it fit the bill for what I wanted at the time I got it:

I am working from home for now but I still need a car for rainy days, interviews, the winter, going to the gym etc. I don't think this thing will see more than ~500 miles a month and I have the bike. So a lot of shit doesn't matter. Maintenance costs don't matter though I would like the thing to run. Gas mileage doesn't matter though I don't want the worst of both worlds (weak performance + shitty mileage). Practicality kind of doesn't matter either, it can be a 2 seater. Only real limitation is price and possibly insurance.

My heart is set on a 2.8-3.0L E36 but there are some interesting alternatives. Main things I want are RWD, ~mid 14 sec or less quarter mile, <3200lbs, <$10K price, and some level of long distance comfort

Z fit the bill to a tee, and until I started commuting it fit pretty much perfectly. What did it in for me was mainly going from driving it at my leisure for ~500 miles a month to commuting in it ~500 miles a week, often in bumper to bumper traffic. That is where its syrupy, heavy ass controls, out of control road noise and lack of practicality began to wear thin. There was nothing in my original parameters about engagement, largely because I had (and still have) the bike for that

Situations change and we all make mistakes or have changes in what we want. Look at Mr. H's car resume Abysmal gas mileage aside I'm pretty happy with my setup now... covers the whole spread of my needs. Ironically I think the only car that would have better fit my current needs would have been something like an E90 sedan, though my gas costs would be much worse. Maybe next time :)

But yea, the only question about bikes is the risk. The reward in regards to fun and engagement is higher, no question. I will say this though- some places are definitely more bike friendly than others. Knock on formica down here a lot of people ride so a lot of people have bikes in their consciousness. It's not super crowded either so people aren't all road ragey and crazy. If I lived somewhere like D.C. I would probably get a comfy ass CUV, a track bike + annual track day membership and a sick racing sim rig as there is zero fun to be had on any vehicle on those roads. But down here when the weather cooperates I can enjoy my bike as much as I want.

[12,000 RPM]

I've ridden other bikes, not just mine. Although mine might be slightly more fun than some of the faster bikes, since I can listen to it scream in almost every gear without speeding too badly.

As for safety, you gotta develop a sixth sense for how drivers do stupid things. Usually you can predict it or at least avoid the lane positioning that would put you in the way of it. I do the same in my car (which has zero collision insurance) so I haven't had much trouble on bike. Of course I also try to avoid traffic in the first place, since my bike is a fun toy and traffic isn't a very fun place

Yea between learning to drive in NYC, commuting by bicycle in Manhattan and riding a motorcycle I gotta say very little surprises me on the road. If you are the kind of driver who is often surprised by what other drivers do I would not recommend a motorcycle.

[BimmerM3]

There was nothing in my original parameters about engagement, largely because I had (and still have) the bike for that

Then don't use it as an example in a discussion regarding driving engagement.

[Cookie Monster]

I've ridden other bikes, not just mine. Although mine might be slightly more fun than some of the faster bikes, since I can listen to it scream in almost every gear without speeding too badly.

As for safety, you gotta develop a sixth sense for how drivers do stupid things. Usually you can predict it or at least avoid the lane positioning that would put you in the way of it. I do the same in my car (which has zero collision insurance) so I haven't had much trouble on bike. Of course I also try to avoid traffic in the first place, since my bike is a fun toy and traffic isn't a very fun place

I generally don't have many close calls because I can usually predict when people are going to do something. However, turning left across 4 lanes of traffic from the second to right lane on a 5 lane road without any warning was not something I was expecting, and given that this was in San Francisco during rush hour, you can't factor in every single "what-if" situation.

My lane positioning in that incident had me closer to the car that hit me, because I was in the right part of the lane to avoid a stopped line of cars to my left. I was expecting a car to pull out from the stopped line on my left, hence why I was towards the right part of my lane, but that ultimately made it harder for me to avoid the one guy who I wasn't expecting to pull a dumbass move and turn across so many lanes of traffic.

[BimmerM3]

I generally don't have many close calls because I can usually predict when people are going to do something. However, turning left across 4 lanes of traffic from the second to right lane on a 5 lane road without any warning was not something I was expecting, and given that this was in San Francisco during rush hour, you can't factor in every single "what-if" situation.

My lane positioning in that incident had me closer to the car that hit me, because I was in the right part of the lane to avoid a stopped line of cars to my left. I was expecting a car to pull out from the stopped line on my left, hence why I was towards the right part of my lane, but that ultimately made it harder for me to avoid the one guy who I wasn't expecting to pull a dumbass move and turn across so many lanes of traffic.

I get why you do it in SF traffic, but this is exactly why I wouldn't ride in a major city like that. There's no telling what kind of shenanigans someone will pull.

[Cookie Monster]

I get why you do it in SF traffic, but this is exactly why I wouldn't ride in a major city like that. There's no telling what kind of shenanigans someone will pull.

I wasn't lane splitting or anything. It would've happened in a car, too (though not to the same extent).

[CaminoRacer]

Your mistake was not commuting in a giant yellow Hummer that day.

[MX793]

Yeah, there's only so much you can do to be safe. I just wear all my gear and try to be careful around cars. I got unlucky with the asshole who turned in front of me but I escaped that with no injury thankfully.

It's when there's no cars around that I end up riding like an idiot, and that's what did me in. The way I was riding, I was bound to crash at some point and I got lucky that the injuries were relatively minor.

I want my next bike to be a 27 hp supermoto so I'm not worried about going too fast.

You crashed a second time?  When was this and where posted?

[Cookie Monster]

You crashed a second time?  When was this and where posted?

I didn't really post about it. It was in the beginning of July.

[BimmerM3]

I wasn't lane splitting or anything. It would've happened in a car, too (though not to the same extent).

Exactly. Cars protect you better, plus (without being there or knowing all the details) it's more likely that the person who hit you would've seen you in a car and not pulled out in the first place.

[CaminoRacer]

Exactly. Cars protect you better, plus (without being there or knowing all the details) it's more likely that the person who hit you would've seen you in a car and not pulled out in the first place.

As if that person was in any way competent.

[Cookie Monster]

Exactly. Cars protect you better, plus (without being there or knowing all the details) it's more likely that the person who hit you would've seen you in a car and not pulled out in the first place.

I doubt it. Dude was a fucking moron.

[BimmerM3]

As if that person was in any way competent.

I doubt it. Dude was a fucking moron.

Still though, people in general are more likely to see a car than a bike, and in general, cars will protect the driver better than a bike will.

[Cookie Monster]

Still though, people in general are more likely to see a car than a bike, and in general, cars will protect the driver better than a bike will.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but in this particular instance, I don't think the guy would have seen anything. He was probably lost and turned in at the last second without looking at anything.

[ifcar]

I think it's just hard to justify spending $30-35k on a two seat sports car when you can get cars like the STI and Focus RS for not a whole lot more that deliver most of the performance and driving experience while being a whole lot more practical.

I can't imagine the STI and Focus RS delivering nearly as much driving enjoyment as a Miata in ordinary conditions. The beauty of the Miata has always been that it's so small and light that everything about it is joyful. An STI is about high performance limits that you rarely get opportunities to aproach.

[Byteme]

I can't imagine the STI and Focus RS delivering nearly as much driving enjoyment as a Miata in ordinary conditions. The beauty of the Miata has always been that it's so small and light that everything about it is joyful. An STI is about high performance limits that you rarely get opportunities to aproach.

Some people would get more enjoyment out of an SUV or pickup than they would a Miata.  Doesn't mean they are wrong, just means they have different expectations.

I enjoyed our Miata and enjoy the CLK that replaced it just as much.  Each car does different things better and I appreciate the differences.  Same goes for the E-type. 

In fact, I still love driving my 07 Mazda6I sport.  I've got cars that are faster, that corner better that do individual things better, but as a package I think that 6 strikes a great balance of economy, driving dynamics, cost to operate, comfort and utility.

[MX793]

Again, on a day to day basis for most people. I would argue I have one of the mos extreme cars here (almost completely stripped out, racing seat, harness, R-comps, etc) and even I found driving my friend's mildy modified WRX to be a ton of fun on the streets. No, it doesn't touch my completely riced out car in terms of fun, but on the streets you can't touch those limits anyways without going to jail or worse. The WRX only had lowering springs and a cat-back exhaust. I can only imagine what a nicely set up STI or RS would feel like.

Before buying my last Mustang, I drove a range of different cars.  Hot hatches, rally rockets, pony cars, and GT cars.  The WRX I drove was the singularly most underwhelming and disappointing "performance" vehicle I've ever driven.  Perhaps I was just expecting too much based on the reviews (and the fact that I'd wanted one since they came to the US in '02).  When puttering along in traffic, it felt completely mundane.  Like a regular Impreza.  Nothing about the experience in "normal" (nowhere near the limit) felt special or engaging.  Standard Impreza economy car interior, flacid "sport" seats, characterless exhaust note, tall "dining room chair" seating position.  It was only when you were burying your foot into it that you had the least inkling that you weren't just driving a small, mainstream sedan.  Meanwhile, the RX-8 I drove was loaded with character.  Low, sporty seating position.  Brapbraap engine sounds.  Even tooling along at 25 mph through a school zone, it felt special.  Even the V6 Mustang that I eventually settled on, with its floaty suspension and numb steering (not that the WRX's was anything to write home about) offered a better sensory experience.  You felt like you were in a performance car.  The WRX was likely faster than either car, but the experience when driving it slowly was uninspiring.

[Cookie Monster]

I can't imagine the STI and Focus RS delivering nearly as much driving enjoyment as a Miata in ordinary conditions. The beauty of the Miata has always been that it's so small and light that everything about it is joyful. An STI is about high performance limits that you rarely get opportunities to aproach.

An ordinary, stock Miata is not that fun to drive, between the nearly silent exhaust and rolly polly suspension. Yes, they're small and light, which is great, but stock I don't think the experience is anything  to write home about. (This doesn't include the ND since I've never driven one).

Other than being able to drop the roof I don't think they're that amazing to drive stock. Or maybe I've been ruined by my ultra ricemobile.

Before buying my last Mustang, I drove a range of different cars.  Hot hatches, rally rockets, pony cars, and GT cars.  The WRX I drove was the singularly most underwhelming and disappointing "performance" vehicle I've ever driven.  Perhaps I was just expecting too much based on the reviews (and the fact that I'd wanted one since they came to the US in '02).  When puttering along in traffic, it felt completely mundane.  Like a regular Impreza.  Nothing about the experience in "normal" (nowhere near the limit) felt special or engaging.  Standard Impreza economy car interior, flacid "sport" seats, characterless exhaust note, tall "dining room chair" seating position.  It was only when you were burying your foot into it that you had the least inkling that you weren't just driving a small, mainstream sedan.  Meanwhile, the RX-8 I drove was loaded with character.  Low, sporty seating position.  Brapbraap engine sounds.  Even tooling along at 25 mph through a school zone, it felt special.  Even the V6 Mustang that I eventually settled on, with its floaty suspension and numb steering (not that the WRX's was anything to write home about) offered a better sensory experience.  You felt like you were in a performance car.  The WRX was likely faster than either car, but the experience when driving it slowly was uninspiring.

I haven't driven a stock WRX but I thought my friend's WRX was a great DD/only car solution. Lots of practicality, decent steering/suspension (maybe it was the stiffer springs or wider tires), nice exhaust (again, modified), and the turbo was a ton of fun to play with. You didn't have to be going stupid fast to enjoy the turbo rush either.

[12,000 RPM]

After having a lot of modified cars a lot of stock cars do feel like trash. Only car I had that I was like "OK this is a pretty good OEM package" was the Z. I could def see how a stock WRX could feel like doo doo, but a mildly modded one could feel fun. It's very hard to get a cheap car just right.

[68_427]

Alot of the complaints here about the WRX are fixed with the STi.  The old EJ has a more exciting character, way better exhaust sound, the STi has better steering, brakes, and even though it's limits and performance are higher, it makes you work harder for them.  People complain about the higher boost threshold in the STi saying they wish it had the meatier power curve of the FA until they drive one and realize it's more fun to wring the thing out.  It's a car that eggs you on, and actually feels special unlike the standard WRX nowadays.

[Raza]

Before buying my last Mustang, I drove a range of different cars.  Hot hatches, rally rockets, pony cars, and GT cars.  The WRX I drove was the singularly most underwhelming and disappointing "performance" vehicle I've ever driven.  Perhaps I was just expecting too much based on the reviews (and the fact that I'd wanted one since they came to the US in '02).  When puttering along in traffic, it felt completely mundane.  Like a regular Impreza.  Nothing about the experience in "normal" (nowhere near the limit) felt special or engaging.  Standard Impreza economy car interior, flacid "sport" seats, characterless exhaust note, tall "dining room chair" seating position.  It was only when you were burying your foot into it that you had the least inkling that you weren't just driving a small, mainstream sedan.  Meanwhile, the RX-8 I drove was loaded with character.  Low, sporty seating position.  Brapbraap engine sounds.  Even tooling along at 25 mph through a school zone, it felt special.  Even the V6 Mustang that I eventually settled on, with its floaty suspension and numb steering (not that the WRX's was anything to write home about) offered a better sensory experience.  You felt like you were in a performance car.  The WRX was likely faster than either car, but the experience when driving it slowly was uninspiring.

WRXs and STIs haven't been exciting below the limit since the Hawkeye style. That age WRX was good, but the STI was blown out of the water by the Evo, which did feel very alive at low speeds.

[Raza]

Alot of the complaints here about the WRX are fixed with the STi.  The old EJ has a more exciting character, way better exhaust sound, the STi has better steering, brakes, and even though it's limits and performance are higher, it makes you work harder for them.  People complain about the higher boost threshold in the STi saying they wish it had the meatier power curve of the FA until they drive one and realize it's more fun to wring the thing out.  It's a car that eggs you on, and actually feels special unlike the standard WRX nowadays.

Even a kid I know who wasn't much into cars said he didn't really like the last gen WRX. He ended up with the MkVI GLI 6MT, and he said it was so much more fun just driving around.

[68_427]

Even a kid I know who wasn't much into cars said he didn't really like the last gen WRX. He ended up with the MkVI GLI 6MT, and he said it was so much more fun just driving around.

He probably liked the Fender sound system

[MX793]

Even a kid I know who wasn't much into cars said he didn't really like the last gen WRX. He ended up with the MkVI GLI 6MT, and he said it was so much more fun just driving around.

Yeah, I was talking previous generation car (still had the EJ).

[68_427]

If we're talking previous gen even the STi was definitely eh.  Subaru tried making them a bit grown up but did it the wrong way by numbing them up and not making any improvements where they really needed it.

[12,000 RPM]

"Begs to be wound out" = shitty when you can't.

IDK. WRX/STI seem to be the result of making the most of a shitty situation. Base Impreza is not great so it's no surprise that hi po versions of it aren't the best driver's cars either. It is what it is. I would rock a WRX if I lived up north I think.

[AutobahnSHO]

I see a bazillion WRX and STI here in upstate NY. But there are 3 bazillion Subarus, too.

The AWD is definitely a consideration for snow country. And young Soldiers looking to get "cool" and not just "normal" will probably throw the extra dough for the turbo.

Honestly I've always wanted a turbo Subie but after seeing a non-car guy get one just because it was the cool thing to do, and seeing the gas penalty just for some added speed in an economy car base, I've chilled on it.

Still looking for a Miata though.........!    CHEAP reliable fun.