///M2 First Drive Reviews are online.....

[MrH]

I still use what I call the Gran Turismo rule.  When playing gran turismo, I could switch the shifter from a gated manual, to a paddle shift transmission.  If it was <400 hp, I usually preferred the gated shifter.  Over 400 hp, I went with paddle shifters.

Same kind of applies to street cars IMO.  E90 M3 with a manual made me feel like a big dumb gorilla.  The whole thing was so frantic except for me and my shifting.

[veeman]

What's interesting is that European WRC and/or Rallycross require a four wheel drive system linked to a manual sequential gearbox.  Any electronically controlled gearshift system and traction control are prohibited. 

It's very nice they're keeping the human skill element in certain types of very popular racing.  Since it's not followed in the U.S., outside of a very small group, this art is being lost.  If Nascar required manual transmissions, the racing would probably be more fun to watch and talk about.  And many more Americans would be buying manual transmission cars. 

[MexicoCityM3]

I still use what I call the Gran Turismo rule.  When playing gran turismo, I could switch the shifter from a gated manual, to a paddle shift transmission.  If it was <400 hp, I usually preferred the gated shifter.  Over 400 hp, I went with paddle shifters.

Same kind of applies to street cars IMO.  E90 M3 with a manual made me feel like a big dumb gorilla.  The whole thing was so frantic except for me and my shifting.

While I don't agree that an E90 M3 feels any weird with a manual, generally I think as well that the choice of transmission depends on the car, with larger, heavier cars tending to go well with an automatic.

[MX793]

A car doesn't need to survey surroundings to be in the highest gear possible. Every speed has an optimal gear for power. Combine that with a margin before redline (i.e. no point downshifting to be put right at the rev limiter) and the auto box can shift to the ideal gear no matter what the car is doing or where it is. Both the GT-R and 458 I drove did rev match downshifts in full auto mode and kept the revs high (though admittedly not high enough). I think the 991 GT3 utilizes the kind of logic I'm talking about. So the limitations you experienced come from a lack of will I'm guessing- no reason such a system couldn't be implemented in a planetary box.

I think you're missing my point.  It's not necessarily about keeping the revs high (in the autocross scenario it was, but not in daily driving), nor do you always want the car in the highest gear possible.  If I'm rolling up to a traffic light in 3rd gear at 35 mph that is about to turn green, I don't want the transmission to upshift into 4th or 5th when I lift off the throttle to decelerate slightly.  I want it to stay in 3rd so that when I roll back into the throttle when the light turns green I have a smooth transition as I accelerate back up to the speed limit.  Instead, I get hesitation as the car tries to figure out what's going on, bogs a bit, slips the torque converter in the higher gear to see if that will get enough acceleration to satisfy the accelerator input, and then finally downshifts back into 3rd (typically with a bit of a lurch). 

Likewise, if I'm on a 35 mph suburban street with an upcoming downhill slope and lift off the throttle at the top of the hill, I don't want the car to upshift when I let off the throttle and force me to drag the brakes down the hill.  I want the transmission to hold the gear and engine brake down the hill.

When I slow to turn onto a side street, I want the transmission in the correct gear to accelerate again once I've completed my turn (this would generally be 2nd gear).  Instead, it holds the highest gear possible (3rd or 4th) and then bogs when I roll into the gas to accelerate out of the turn, then finally decides to drop into 2nd like it should have.  In a manual, I downshift into 2nd before entering the turn, roll through the turn in 2nd, and then smoothly accelerate away.

I spend so much time providing manual intervention by shuffling between Drive, Sport, and Manual mode in that damned Jetta to get it to behave "properly" that I may as well just be driving a manual.  Maybe somebody who doesn't understand proper gear selection and doesn't know any better wouldn't be bothered by the typical automatic behavior, but for someone who learned to drive manual gearboxes and about proper gear selection when they were 8 years old and has driven almost exclusively manual vehicles since, such automatic transmission logic is incredibly frustrating.  And the Jetta is not the only auto I've driven to behave like that. 

[MX793]

If Nascar required manual transmissions, the racing would probably be more fun to watch and talk about.  And many more Americans would be buying manual transmission cars. 

NASCAR does require manual transmissions and that's what all of them run (4 speeds).  Granted, you don't do a great deal of shifting on super speedways.

[Rich]

If Nascar required manual transmissions, the racing would probably be more fun to watch and talk about.  And many more Americans would be buying manual transmission cars. 

[GoCougs]

I think you're missing my point.  It's not necessarily about keeping the revs high (in the autocross scenario it was, but not in daily driving), nor do you always want the car in the highest gear possible.  If I'm rolling up to a traffic light in 3rd gear at 35 mph that is about to turn green, I don't want the transmission to upshift into 4th or 5th when I lift off the throttle to decelerate slightly.  I want it to stay in 3rd so that when I roll back into the throttle when the light turns green I have a smooth transition as I accelerate back up to the speed limit.  Instead, I get hesitation as the car tries to figure out what's going on, bogs a bit, slips the torque converter in the higher gear to see if that will get enough acceleration to satisfy the accelerator input, and then finally downshifts back into 3rd (typically with a bit of a lurch). 

Likewise, if I'm on a 35 mph suburban street with an upcoming downhill slope and lift off the throttle at the top of the hill, I don't want the car to upshift when I let off the throttle and force me to drag the brakes down the hill.  I want the transmission to hold the gear and engine brake down the hill.

When I slow to turn onto a side street, I want the transmission in the correct gear to accelerate again once I've completed my turn (this would generally be 2nd gear).  Instead, it holds the highest gear possible (3rd or 4th) and then bogs when I roll into the gas to accelerate out of the turn, then finally decides to drop into 2nd like it should have.  In a manual, I downshift into 2nd before entering the turn, roll through the turn in 2nd, and then smoothly accelerate away.

I spend so much time providing manual intervention by shuffling between Drive, Sport, and Manual mode in that damned Jetta to get it to behave "properly" that I may as well just be driving a manual.  Maybe somebody who doesn't understand proper gear selection and doesn't know any better wouldn't be bothered by the typical automatic behavior, but for someone who learned to drive manual gearboxes and about proper gear selection when they were 8 years old and has driven almost exclusively manual vehicles since, such automatic transmission logic is incredibly frustrating.  And the Jetta is not the only auto I've driven to behave like that. 

No offense but a Jetta, save for maybe the 2.0T/DSG version, is not an example of a performance AT. What you describe is exactly as it was designed and programmed to do, which is what 99% of Jetta buyers are gonna want: smoothness and economy.

[12,000 RPM]

I think you're missing my point.  It's not necessarily about keeping the revs high (in the autocross scenario it was, but not in daily driving), nor do you always want the car in the highest gear possible.  If I'm rolling up to a traffic light in 3rd gear at 35 mph that is about to turn green, I don't want the transmission to upshift into 4th or 5th when I lift off the throttle to decelerate slightly.  I want it to stay in 3rd so that when I roll back into the throttle when the light turns green I have a smooth transition as I accelerate back up to the speed limit.  Instead, I get hesitation as the car tries to figure out what's going on, bogs a bit, slips the torque converter in the higher gear to see if that will get enough acceleration to satisfy the accelerator input, and then finally downshifts back into 3rd (typically with a bit of a lurch). 

Likewise, if I'm on a 35 mph suburban street with an upcoming downhill slope and lift off the throttle at the top of the hill, I don't want the car to upshift when I let off the throttle and force me to drag the brakes down the hill.  I want the transmission to hold the gear and engine brake down the hill.

When I slow to turn onto a side street, I want the transmission in the correct gear to accelerate again once I've completed my turn (this would generally be 2nd gear).  Instead, it holds the highest gear possible (3rd or 4th) and then bogs when I roll into the gas to accelerate out of the turn, then finally decides to drop into 2nd like it should have.  In a manual, I downshift into 2nd before entering the turn, roll through the turn in 2nd, and then smoothly accelerate away.

I spend so much time providing manual intervention by shuffling between Drive, Sport, and Manual mode in that damned Jetta to get it to behave "properly" that I may as well just be driving a manual.  Maybe somebody who doesn't understand proper gear selection and doesn't know any better wouldn't be bothered by the typical automatic behavior, but for someone who learned to drive manual gearboxes and about proper gear selection when they were 8 years old and has driven almost exclusively manual vehicles since, such automatic transmission logic is incredibly frustrating.  And the Jetta is not the only auto I've driven to behave like that.

Maybe they changed the programming on yours, but in my wife's car I find Sport mode to be enough. Or I just give up and do what the transmission wants me to do. No use fighting it. But in something like a 911 GT3 that DSG will always be in the right gear in auto mode. Plus it will have enough power where it can be in the "wrong" gear and still make haste on surface streets.

[MX793]

No offense but a Jetta, save for maybe the 2.0T/DSG version, is not an example of a performance AT. What you describe is exactly as it was designed and programmed to do, which is what 99% of Jetta buyers are gonna want: smoothness and economy.

Except it's not smooth, nor is it especially efficient.

[MX793]

Maybe they changed the programming on yours, but in my wife's car I find Sport mode to be enough. Or I just give up and do what the transmission wants me to do. No use fighting it. But in something like a 911 GT3 that DSG will always be in the right gear in auto mode. Plus it will have enough power where it can be in the "wrong" gear and still make haste on surface streets.

Sport mode is better in terms of holding gear when lifting off the throttle in normal driving, but locks out top gear and kills fuel economy.  Considering the car struggles to get much over 20 mpg in suburban driving in drive, where it short shifts at 2400 rpm all the time and keeps RPMs under 2000, I don't want to think about sport mode where it shifts after 3000 and will run 1000 rpm higher all the time.  I find that I constantly flick between drive and sport.  At which point, I might as well just drive a manual.

[12,000 RPM]

The crap fuel economy is all down to that 2.5L. The new TSI literally gets like 50% better fuel economy driven exactly the same, I've had em back to back.

[GoCougs]

Except it's not smooth, nor is it especially efficient.

To me it sounds smoother and more efficient than the preferences you're describing. Try to program a non-performance AT as a performance AT and it would be a disaster, particularly for response and durability.

It takes a lot of work and fine tuning to make a slushie into a performance piece - pumps, bands/dog clutches, clutch plates, solenoids, valve body, sensors, and means of selecting modes.

[MX793]

To me it sounds smoother and more efficient than the preferences you're describing. Try to program a non-performance AT as a performance AT and it would be a disaster, particularly for response and durability.

It takes a lot of work and fine tuning to make a slushie into a performance piece - pumps, bands/dog clutches, clutch plates, solenoids, valve body, sensors, and means of selecting modes.

Tell me what's smoother:

Scenario A (My Jetta or similar automatic vehicle):  Cruising 45 mph down a turnpike, approaching a side street I intend to turn onto.  Car is in 6th gear.  I release the accelerator and apply the brake.  At 40 mph, the car decouples the torque converter.  RPMs drop to idle (I'm effectively coasting in neutral), but the car doesn't downshift.  At ~30 mph it downshifts to 5th, but the TC is still decoupled.  At ~20 it downshifts to 4th, still sitting at idle with the TC decoupled.  At ~15 it drops to 3rd, still decoupled.  I coast through the corner and apply the throttle to accelerate away.  RPMs surge up to 2500 as the TC slips, transmission gear-hunts for a moment, then slams down into 2nd and locks the TC with a bit of a jerk/lurch.

Scenario B (My technique when driving a manual):  Cruising at 45 mph in 6th gear, approaching turn onto a side street.  I release the throttle, apply the brake, rev-match downshift down through the gears until 2nd gear as I decelerate down to 15 mph (car never coasting with clutch in for longer than it takes to execute a shift), roll through the turn in 2nd gear with the clutch out/engaged, roll into the throttle as I accelerate away smoothly.

[veeman]

NASCAR does require manual transmissions and that's what all of them run (4 speeds).  Granted, you don't do a great deal of shifting on super speedways.

Well I'll be...  I've never bothered to actually watch a NASCAR race but that's good to know.

[MrH]

Well I'll be...  I've never bothered to actually watch a NASCAR race but that's good to know.

Very valid excuse

[12,000 RPM]

I still use what I call the Gran Turismo rule.  When playing gran turismo, I could switch the shifter from a gated manual, to a paddle shift transmission.  If it was <400 hp, I usually preferred the gated shifter.  Over 400 hp, I went with paddle shifters.

Same kind of applies to street cars IMO.  E90 M3 with a manual made me feel like a big dumb gorilla.  The whole thing was so frantic except for me and my shifting.

Yep.... threshold braking from 170+ down to a 2nd or 3rd gear corner, the last thing I want to throw in that mix is having to nail a perfect heel to downshift 3-4 times. We are not dealing with ~400HP Miuras anymore; pretty much everything faster than a base 911 is on some completely different shit.

And like I said before I'd rather a good DCT than a bad manual. The Z probably could have been a mid-high 13 second car instead of a mid 14 second car.... responsible gear shifts on that are glacial

[CaminoRacer]

Nascars are actually pretty cool vehicles. Big American V8s and a four speed going 200 mph. It's just the circle tracks and organization that make it crappy.

[12,000 RPM]

Tell me what's smoother:

Scenario A (My Jetta or similar automatic vehicle):  Cruising 45 mph down a turnpike, approaching a side street I intend to turn onto.  Car is in 6th gear.  I release the accelerator and apply the brake.  At 40 mph, the car decouples the torque converter.  RPMs drop to idle (I'm effectively coasting in neutral), but the car doesn't downshift.  At ~30 mph it downshifts to 5th, but the TC is still decoupled.  At ~20 it downshifts to 4th, still sitting at idle with the TC decoupled.  At ~15 it drops to 3rd, still decoupled.  I coast through the corner and apply the throttle to accelerate away.  RPMs surge up to 2500 as the TC slips, transmission gear-hunts for a moment, then slams down into 2nd and locks the TC with a bit of a jerk/lurch.

Scenario B (My technique when driving a manual):  Cruising at 45 mph in 6th gear, approaching turn onto a side street.  I release the throttle, apply the brake, rev-match downshift down through the gears until 2nd gear as I decelerate down to 15 mph (car never coasting with clutch in for longer than it takes to execute a shift), roll through the turn in 2nd gear with the clutch out/engaged, roll into the throttle as I accelerate away smoothly.

Judging by my wife's head bobbing, I'm gonna say the auto is smoother. Though I'm not sure her TC disengages in this manner. Her Rabbit gets about the same gas mileage as the Z did with half the HP

[MX793]

Judging by my wife's head bobbing, I'm gonna say the auto is smoother. Though I'm not sure her TC disengages in this manner. Her Rabbit gets about the same gas mileage as the Z did with half the HP

I'm very good at rev matching (good enough that I don't really need to use the clutch to shift).  I've had more than one person ride with me and comment that if they closed their eyes, they'd think they were riding in an automatic.  I had one guy, a former coworker (and professional truck driver), ride in my car for a half hour before he noticed the car was a manual (he was riding in the back seat).

I would describe the VW's transmission behavior as being very similar to what you get if somebody were to push the clutch in while braking, coast through the corner with the clutch in, shift to the correct gear mid-corner or at corner exit, and then let the clutch out without rev-matching as they started to accelerate away.  Sometimes it's smoother than others, but it's frequently not smooth.  Another prime example of clunky/indecisive behavior is when slowing from 55 to 35 when approaching a red light that has just turned green and traffic ahead is just starting to move.  When I roll back into the throttle, there's some hesitation, TC slippage, and then a somewhat clunky shift down from 5th to 3rd.

[12,000 RPM]

Downshifts to 3rd are clunky in wifey's car too. Not to where it worries me though.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Saw a new M3 coupe the other day. I really like the new BMW styling.

[MexicoCityM3]

This thread is not for discussing VW transmissions.

SHITLORDS