Madman and 2o6 are gonna bust copious nuts over my rental

[ifcar]

I didn't even realize that the Soul was considered a subcompact. And yeah, I think there's some sorcery involved in making the Versa. The interior seems impossibly large compared to the exterior.

The Soul has probably slightly wandered out of the traditional subcompact class to be more like a FWD-only Honda HR-V competitor, but dimensionally and price-wise it's still in line with Fit/Versa/etc.

[Vinsanity]

Wow, seems like that car would fail pretty bad back here. Say what you will about the Nissan Versa, but it's actually a pretty well thought-out package with relatively few design flaws...I mean "quirks"

[2o6]

Wow, seems like that car would fail pretty bad back here. Say what you will about the Nissan Versa, but it's actually a pretty well thought-out package with relatively few design flaws...I mean "quirks"

The Versa sells because it's cheap and has a lot of room. The Versa as a car is actually pretty garbage.


I think the C4 Cactus could have a nice market here.

[veeman]

I remember the Toyota Echo.  So much room, so economical, so dumpy looking.

[Vinsanity]

The Versa sells because it's cheap and has a lot of room. The Versa as a car is actually pretty garbage.


I think the C4 Cactus could have a nice market here.

Maybe with a more suitable engine and rear windows that roll down. Maybe.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[12,000 RPM]

The Versa sells because it's cheap and has a lot of room. The Versa as a car is actually pretty garbage.


I think the C4 Cactus could have a nice market here.

Americans have generally terrible tastes. Garbage sells here. Even for the "discerning B-segment buyer" this doesn't bring much to the table besides being different. The shifter felt like something from the 80s, and it was OK dynamically but not as good as the Fit. Nowhere close. What exactly would this bring to the US outside of a French badge?

[2o6]

Americans have generally terrible tastes. Garbage sells here. Even for the "discerning B-segment buyer" this doesn't bring much to the table besides being different. The shifter felt like something from the 80s, and it was OK dynamically but not as good as the Fit. Nowhere close. What exactly would this bring to the US outside of a French badge?

It's cool looking. (That worked for the Soul)

[12,000 RPM]

Soul is practical and makes sense though. My only need with the Soul rental I had was the steering.... everything else was up to american standards and made sense.

[Vinsanity]

Also, how's the passing power in that thing? As in, say, 60-80 mph acceleration? Plenty of tiny-engine econoboxes will cruise steadily at 80 mph nowadays, but I wouldn't imagine you'd be attempting many passing maneuvers on 2-lane backroads in the Cactus

[2o6]

Then put a bigger engine in it? My car comes with a 1.2L NA GAS and 1.3L diesel. Those engines would be not enough. So use something else.

Soul is practical and makes sense though. My only need with the Soul rental I had was the steering.... everything else was up to american standards and made sense.

You do realize that most of those "quirks" are because the car is cheap, right?


If you want something more traditional, you don't buy a Cactus line car.

[cawimmer430]

Also, how's the passing power in that thing? As in, say, 60-80 mph acceleration? Plenty of tiny-engine econoboxes will cruise steadily at 80 mph nowadays, but I wouldn't imagine you'd be attempting many passing maneuvers on 2-lane backroads in the Cactus

Most European economy cars may not shine in the 0-100 km/h department, but when it comes to passing power they're pretty sufficient. The passing power of the diesel Cactus should be more than sufficient, especially with all that diesel torque.

Also, people seem to forget that passing is not only about sheer power, it's also about intelligence and intelligent driving. Overtake at the right time and at the right place. I've driven weaker cars than this and had no problems overtaking trucks on country roads. Timing is everything and knowing the performance capabilities of your ride.

[MX793]

Most European economy cars may not shine in the 0-100 km/h department, but when it comes to passing power they're pretty sufficient. The passing power of the diesel Cactus should be more than sufficient, especially with all that diesel torque.

Also, people seem to forget that passing is not only about sheer power, it's also about intelligence and intelligent driving. Overtake at the right time and at the right place. I've driven weaker cars than this and had no problems overtaking trucks on country roads. Timing is everything and knowing the performance capabilities of your ride.

A vehicle with slow 0-60 will be slow everywhere.  I've been stuck behind slower vehicles for miles and miles in cars well quicker than a Cactus, or similar Euro econo-cars, because I couldn't find a window large enough to execute a safe pass.  A slower car only makes that window of opportunity even smaller.  That's not to mention all of the highways with very short acceleration/merge lanes for on-ramps.

[2o6]

0-60 in the biggest diesel engine comes at 10 seconds flat.


0-60 in the biggest gas engine is about 8-9 seconds.


Those times aren't super fast, but sound reasonable.

[cawimmer430]

A vehicle with slow 0-60 will be slow everywhere.  I've been stuck behind slower vehicles for miles and miles in cars well quicker than a Cactus, or similar Euro econo-cars, because I couldn't find a window large enough to execute a safe pass.  A slower car only makes that window of opportunity even smaller.  That's not to mention all of the highways with very short acceleration/merge lanes for on-ramps.

I think "slowness" is subjective. I'd say the average modern European/Japanese/Korean economy car has a 0-100 km/h time of around 10-12 seconds. Personally I don't consider that to be distressingly slow. It's simply "not very fast." In my limited experience with some of these cars I'd say they have pretty decent midrange power, good enough to pass a truck or two in the right situation.

[cawimmer430]

This thread needs some pictures! A Citroen C4 Cactus with French plates! Spotted today. These guys are probably heading towards the Oktoberfest to get wasted! 

[MX793]

I think "slowness" is subjective. I'd say the average modern European/Japanese/Korean economy car has a 0-100 km/h time of around 10-12 seconds. Personally I don't consider that to be distressingly slow. It's simply "not very fast." In my limited experience with some of these cars I'd say they have pretty decent midrange power, good enough to pass a truck or two in the right situation.

For many of the passing zones in the 2-lane rural highways around here, that's not gonna cut it.

Example from a road I was on today:

Twisty/windy road with only one passing zone for several miles.  Speed limit is 55, average semi is going to struggle to do much over 40 (lots of sharp, 25-30 mph turns).  Only one passing zone for a couple of miles is only ~615 ft long.

Typical semi truck in the US is 70-75 ft long.  If the truck is going 40 mph and I'm following at a safe distance, the truck has a ~190 ft head start before I'm in the passing zone.  To safely pass the truck, I need to be a couple of car-lengths (let's say 40 ft from rear bumper to the front of the truck) ahead before I pull back into my lane.  It will take the truck 7.25 seconds to cover the remaining 425 ft of passing zone if it maintains constant speed.  So I have to cover the entire 615 ft of passing zone in ~6.25 seconds to safely pass the truck.  That will require an acceleration of 6.4 ft/s^2.  A Cactus weighs 2400 lbs, so, excluding drag (will get to that in a moment), I'd need an average force of 477 lbs just to accelerate the mass.  That works out to be an average horsepower of 85 not including drag.  Drag at those speeds is going to take somewhere around 10 additional HP.  So, 95 hp at the wheels, average, to make that pass.  That's around 115 hp at the engine.  The most powerful C4 Cactus made doesn't even make 115 hp PEAK.

[2o6]

That's about as slow as a Yaris, Versa, et al


It's not like Citroen doesn't have other engines that wouldn't fit in this car.

[cawimmer430]

For many of the passing zones in the 2-lane rural highways around here, that's not gonna cut it.

Example from a road I was on today:

Twisty/windy road with only one passing zone for several miles.  Speed limit is 55, average semi is going to struggle to do much over 40 (lots of sharp, 25-30 mph turns).  Only one passing zone for a couple of miles is only ~615 ft long.

Typical semi truck in the US is 70-75 ft long.  If the truck is going 40 mph and I'm following at a safe distance, the truck has a ~190 ft head start before I'm in the passing zone.  To safely pass the truck, I need to be a couple of car-lengths (let's say 40 ft from rear bumper to the front of the truck) ahead before I pull back into my lane.  It will take the truck 7.25 seconds to cover the remaining 425 ft of passing zone if it maintains constant speed.  So I have to cover the entire 615 ft of passing zone in ~6.25 seconds to safely pass the truck.  That will require an acceleration of 6.4 ft/s^2.  A Cactus weighs 2400 lbs, so, excluding drag (will get to that in a moment), I'd need an average force of 477 lbs just to accelerate the mass.  That works out to be an average horsepower of 85 not including drag.  Drag at those speeds is going to take somewhere around 10 additional HP.  So, 95 hp at the wheels, average, to make that pass.  That's around 115 hp at the engine.  The most powerful C4 Cactus made doesn't even make 115 hp PEAK.

The length of the truck does seem to be important. Here the trucks tend to be shorter in length, and they generally keep a distance between themselves and the truck ahead which allows cars to overtake them and slide in in front of them to repeat the same maneuver when possible.

I've just never had a problem with most "underpowered" cars in regards to overtaking. I generally wait for the right moment and use what power there is to overtake - and I am still alive, so it's working! 

There are a few hopeless cases, cars which are so slow that I won't even think about overtaking with them. I remember a 1990s Mercedes C200 Diesel W202 I had to drive which had like 79-horsepower (naturally aspirated). That thing was slow, even with the 5-speed manual. Acceleration was nonexistent and overtaking was virtually impossible unless you had long straight roads and no oncoming traffic in sight. Compared to this thing most modern economy cars which I've driven were sports cars and "quick".

If Citroen were to bring over the C4 Cactus I'm sure they'd drop a more powerful engine in it. Then again for America a C4 Cactus would be more of a funky city car - something to use in town rather than do a cross country trip in.

[12,000 RPM]

Wim you don't drive in the US. It's different. People are more aggressive, on ramps are much shorter, and aside from Germany highway speeds are much higher. The C4 Cactus felt fine in the UK among other 80-100HP misery mobiles. But back in the US, where I'm pretty sure the slowest of the top 10 vehicles sold does 0-60 in 8 seconds, this thing would get mauled. I did the math last night... cruising speeds in the fast lane on UK highways was about 75 MPH. In the US that's 85-90. Drag increases with the square of speed so for it to have the same comfort at the same speeds in the US it would need about 20-30% more power, which- surprise!- is the 130 or so HP found in a lot of base B-segment cars here.

Then put a bigger engine in it? My car comes with a 1.2L NA GAS and 1.3L diesel. Those engines would be not enough. So use something else.


You do realize that most of those "quirks" are because the car is cheap, right?


If you want something more traditional, you don't buy a Cactus line car.

I don't think Americans would put up with something this cheap from an unknown manufacturer. You are thinking about this purely from the car side; I'm looking at this from the business POV. Citroen would have to establish their dealership and parts network quickly, AND develop or partner with a financing arm that would specialize in subprime financing. You take away the Citroen badge, there's little reason to buy this over a Versa Note. By the time they tweaked it for American tastes- bigger engine, openable rear windows- it would cost the same as other B-segment cars here and be a much bigger PITA to service and repair. It's not a bad car, but for Americans it's a weird car that doesn't bring a ton of new value to the market

[2o6]

Mirage has 72HP


All variants of the versa have 106HP



(I'm not against extra power, but it sounds silly - if Citroen were to bring it here they'd add more HP def.)

[12,000 RPM]

Mirage monthly payments are probably not much more expensive than the cheapest daily rental rates

Versa has what fat Americans want (space space space, abundant dealerships, easy ownership experience)

[2o6]

So no car ever should ever be sold on the US ever again



Got it.

[MrH]

Well, they probably couldn't bring over the cactus at a competitive price either.  They're manufactured in Spain.  I haven't heard of any car being imported to the US from Spain.  There's a good reason for that.  I'm sure between exchange rates and tariffs, you can't bring any car here profitably.  And then when you talk economy cars, it's even more difficult since the margins are so much smaller.

They don't have the geographical footprint and whatever small sales they could get here wouldn't justify tooling up an entire new location.

[cawimmer430]

Wim you don't drive in the US. It's different. People are more aggressive, on ramps are much shorter, and aside from Germany highway speeds are much higher. The C4 Cactus felt fine in the UK among other 80-100HP misery mobiles. But back in the US, where I'm pretty sure the slowest of the top 10 vehicles sold does 0-60 in 8 seconds, this thing would get mauled. I did the math last night... cruising speeds in the fast lane on UK highways was about 75 MPH. In the US that's 85-90. Drag increases with the square of speed so for it to have the same comfort at the same speeds in the US it would need about 20-30% more power, which- surprise!- is the 130 or so HP found in a lot of base B-segment cars here.

If the C4 Cactus were to come to the US it would definitely receive a more powerful engine. I see it as a niche product in the US anyway, and the dedicated fan base which would buy the Cactus probably value its quirky design over sheer performance.

I think the Citroen C4 is a more realistic choice for the US market.




And as you can see it has more powerful engine options.

[ifcar]

So no car ever should ever be sold on the US ever again



Got it.

Yep, that's obviously the logic when pointing out the issues with one particular car.

[2o6]

Well, they probably couldn't bring over the cactus at a competitive price either.  They're manufactured in Spain.  I haven't heard of any car being imported to the US from Spain.  There's a good reason for that.  I'm sure between exchange rates and tariffs, you can't bring any car here profitably.  And then when you talk economy cars, it's even more difficult since the margins are so much smaller.

They don't have the geographical footprint and whatever small sales they could get here wouldn't justify tooling up an entire new location.

I could have sworn that some sort of Jeep or FCA car was made in Spain, but I was wrong.

[Cookie Monster]

Wim you don't drive in the US. It's different. People are more aggressive, on ramps are much shorter, and aside from Germany highway speeds are much higher. The C4 Cactus felt fine in the UK among other 80-100HP misery mobiles. But back in the US, where I'm pretty sure the slowest of the top 10 vehicles sold does 0-60 in 8 seconds, this thing would get mauled. I did the math last night... cruising speeds in the fast lane on UK highways was about 75 MPH. In the US that's 85-90. Drag increases with the square of speed so for it to have the same comfort at the same speeds in the US it would need about 20-30% more power, which- surprise!- is the 130 or so HP found in a lot of base B-segment cars here.
I don't think Americans would put up with something this cheap from an unknown manufacturer. You are thinking about this purely from the car side; I'm looking at this from the business POV. Citroen would have to establish their dealership and parts network quickly, AND develop or partner with a financing arm that would specialize in subprime financing. You take away the Citroen badge, there's little reason to buy this over a Versa Note. By the time they tweaked it for American tastes- bigger engine, openable rear windows- it would cost the same as other B-segment cars here and be a much bigger PITA to service and repair. It's not a bad car, but for Americans it's a weird car that doesn't bring a ton of new value to the market

You don't need to drive in the fast lane, though.

[12,000 RPM]

You don't need to drive in the fast lane, though.

Even people who drive sanely have expectations of power. They could sell Camrys and Corollas with smaller engines here, but they don't. Mainstream engines actually keep getting more powerful here. Why?

2o6 stop taking this so personally. You are way tougher than that. French cars won't work here for the manufacturers or the majority of the American car buying market. It is what is. The American cat market is damn near optimized

[Cookie Monster]

Wimmer, 10-12 seconds is abysmal. That's barely acceptable power for merging on the highway here, and to have to do it while straining and going WOT is not fun.

Hell my bike is pretty damn slow and merging isn't all that fun, and its 0-60 time is in the mid 7's. Granted most of that acceleration seems to be down low where it has a ton of torque and can hop off the line, and loses steam up top, but still my bike is much, much quicker than a POS 12 second car. That would not be that fun.

[AutobahnSHO]

Americans don't know what WOT is anyway.