Cheap used EVs

Started by CaminoRacer, December 29, 2016, 10:55:11 PM

ChrisV

Quote from: Raza  on January 16, 2017, 07:58:28 PM
And I wouldn't have trust in a full EV. 

Why not? I spent 90% of the time in the Volt in pure EV mode and that only had a 45 mile range. I really started to wonder why I was lugging around all that extra weight and complexity of a gas drivetrain in there when it was used so little. I'd have no problem dailying a pure EV, even one with a mere 80-100 miles of range.
Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection...

ChrisV

Quote from: 93JC on January 03, 2017, 11:36:16 PM
This was easily the next biggest problem with the ELR, after being grossly overpriced. Two-doors have a very limited appeal; relatively sedate, 'economy' two-doors especially.

But coupe versions of 4 door sedans have always sold for a higher premium, both new and used, even if they had a more limited market. Just look at collector cars for that. A '57 Bel Air, for example, will bring approx 8 times teh money that the same trim level 4 door version does. A 2 door Chevelle will bring  huge money. A 4 door version, barely into new economy car money in the same condition. They made way more 4 door sedan versions of most classic and muscle era cars, but the 2 door versions are the ones that usually survived, even in base trim levels, due to being more "special."

In the economy arena, look at 2 door versions of Datsun 510s and Toyota Corollas through the '70s and '80s. They generally bring more money and are more desirable than the 4 door versions, even though the 4 doors come with the same drivetrains and are more practical. Look at prices of 4 door R32 and R33 Skylines vs the 2 door versions.

Modern cars, look at the same chassis Camaro and ATS. Why doesn't the ATS-V or CTS-V outsell the Camaro? Don't 4 doors mean a larger audience?

Especially since the Volt was a 4 door that sat 4 and people bitched about that. Adding doors to the ELR would not have stopped the complaining, so why not make it a real coupe?

The ELR's only problem was initial price. At $50-55k before incentives, it would have been the correct step up from a Volt and they would have sold many more of them. The stubby Lamborghini shape was excellent as was the interior appointments. I'd definitely have loved one instead of the Volt, but not for $70-80k.

I just love this little car:



Make it a 250 mile pure EV for $50k, and you have a winner.
Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection...

93JC

#32
*sigh*...

Alright Chris, I'll humour you for minute.

First, let's just...

Quote from: ChrisV on January 17, 2017, 02:56:25 PM
But coupe versions of 4 door sedans have always sold for a higher premium, both new and used, even if they had a more limited market. Just look at collector cars for that. A '57 Bel Air, for example, will bring approx 8 times teh money that the same trim level 4 door version does. A 2 door Chevelle will bring  huge money. A 4 door version, barely into new economy car money in the same condition. They made way more 4 door sedan versions of most classic and muscle era cars, but the 2 door versions are the ones that usually survived, even in base trim levels, due to being more "special."

In the economy arena, look at 2 door versions of Datsun 510s and Toyota Corollas through the '70s and '80s. They generally bring more money and are more desirable than the 4 door versions, even though the 4 doors come with the same drivetrains and are more practical. Look at prices of 4 door R32 and R33 Skylines vs the 2 door versions.

... scratch all that talk about 40 to 60-year-old cars, because it is totally irrelevant to the modern, new car market. GM sells new cars, not old ones.

QuoteModern cars, look at the same chassis Camaro and ATS. Why doesn't the ATS-V or CTS-V outsell the Camaro? Don't 4 doors mean a larger audience?

Well, this all goes back to the part where I said "relatively sedate, 'economy' two-doors" have an especially limited market. The Camaro is 'sporty', it's fast, it's cool, and it starts around $30,000. The ATS-V and CTS-V are $65,000+ and $90,000+ cars, respectively (Canadian prices; I have no idea what they're asking for in the US but the gist is the Camaro is a lot less expensive). The ATS-V and CTS-V play in a completely different part of the market. Even though they share a chassis they don't compete with the Camaro and their competition from other manufacturers is totally different.

So much of what the ATS-V and CTS-V must sell on in the market they're playing in is snob appeal, which Cadillac just doesn't have in the same way Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz have. People looking for CTS-Vs and ATS-Vs will tend to go out and buy an M3 or M5 or E-class AMG or whatever. People looking for a regular ATS and CTS will go out and buy 3-series, C-classes, 5-series, E-class, A4, A6, etc., and Audi/BMW/Mercedes-Benz(/Lexus/Infiniti) are very good at appealing to the buyers of those sorts of cars. They're better at it than GM, for sure. Whether the ATS/CTS are objectively good or bad cars doesn't even matter. Perception matters more than reality.

All the Camaro competes with is the Mustang and the Challenger, and on the higher end maybe some of those two-door BMWs and stuff like that. The Camaro has performance credentials, that's why it sells. That's the only way you can sell a two-door anymore: it's got to be fast. It has to be a performance car. It has to be 'cool'. That's the only compelling reason buyers are willing to give up the versatility and practicality that comes with two extra doors. The Camaro sells well because it is fast, and 'cool'.

The ELR was not sporty. It was not fast. It gave buyers no compelling reason to buy one: it was a two-door Volt with lipstick on it. The Volt is a perfectly good car, and so is the ELR, but whether the ELR is good or bad is irrelevant when it cost $75,000 and was a two-door electric car that did 0-60 mph in 8½-9 seconds. That's considered "slow" these days, especially for a two-door; especially for a $75,000 two-door. If a two-door isn't fast or cool it will not sell in great numbers. You've asked why the Camaro is popular; you should be asking yourself why they don't make a Monte Carlo anymore. Hint: no one wants a 'slow', boring-ass two-door anymore.

QuoteEspecially since the Volt was a 4 door that sat 4 and people bitched about that. Adding doors to the ELR would not have stopped the complaining, so why not make it a real coupe?

GM probably asked themselves the same question, and came up with "Screw it, the Volt is a little impractical: let's go buck wild and make a two-door Volt and badge it as a Cadillac!" as their solution. GM totally missed the mark because they jumped to a dumb conclusion: the people bitching about the Volt having four seats didn't want a $75,000 Cadillac-ified Volt coupe, they just wanted a Volt with five seats...  :facepalm:

QuoteThe ELR's only problem was initial price. At $50-55k before incentives, it would have been the correct step up from a Volt and they would have sold many more of them. The stubby Lamborghini shape was excellent as was the interior appointments. I'd definitely have loved one instead of the Volt, but not for $70-80k.

I just love this little car...

I'll re-iterate, with some emphasis, that I said "[not being a four-door] was easily the next biggest problem with the ELR, after being grossly overpriced." I didn't argue its biggest problem wasn't that it was overpriced: it was, absolutely, way the hell overpriced. You say $50,000-55,000 before incentives would have been more compelling. So, after incentives, we're talking somewhere in the neighbourhood of $40,000: not much more than a Volt. I don't disagree at all, they would have sold a lot more of them at that price. Would they have sold so many that it would have been worth pouring the money into developing the car? Probably not, because there still isn't much of a market for $40,000 slow electric two-doors.

I don't think the ELR was a bad car at all, it's just not what people wanted, and it was dumb of GM to build a car people didn't want.

Raza

Quote from: ChrisV on January 17, 2017, 02:44:08 PM
Why not? I spent 90% of the time in the Volt in pure EV mode and that only had a 45 mile range. I really started to wonder why I was lugging around all that extra weight and complexity of a gas drivetrain in there when it was used so little. I'd have no problem dailying a pure EV, even one with a mere 80-100 miles of range.

Battery degradation over time.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Raza  on January 17, 2017, 11:48:52 PM
Battery degradation over time.

As long as the battery isn't stressed out by going totally empty and being overcharged, it is supposed to have as long of a service life as the rest of the vehicle.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Raza  on January 16, 2017, 07:58:28 PM
I could see looking into a 6MT CR-Z as a commuter, but only if it's super cheap (like under $7,000), because it's otherwise not that practical.  And I wouldn't have trust in a full EV.
Don't be fooled! The Fit is a better car in almost every way. ~2 seconds faster to 60 (!!!!!), just as good dynamically, way more fun to drive, only down 1 MPG combined....
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

ChrisV

Quote from: Raza  on January 17, 2017, 11:48:52 PM
Battery degradation over time.

Over how long? All of them have 8-10 year battery warranties and so far none of them, save the first gen air-cooled Leafs, have shown battery degredation.
Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection...

ChrisV

#37
Quote from: 93JC on January 17, 2017, 09:17:53 PM
*sigh*...

Alright Chris, I'll humour you for minute.

First, let's just...

... scratch all that talk about 40 to 60-year-old cars, because it is totally irrelevant to the modern, new car market. GM sells new cars, not old ones.


A blanket statement was made, and I countered it. Sorry you can't handle it. Coupes generally go for more than sedans of the same platform. If you want to only talk new cars, M4s list for more than M3s. Same platform, 2 less doors.

The simple fact is, it didn't sell not because it was a coupe, but because it was $25-30k overpriced. Simple as that. Had it been $10k more than a Volt, it would have been a success. It gave better styling (like many coupes do) it gave better interior materials.
Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection...

Eye of the Tiger

2024 Mitsubishi Mirage ES

93JC

Oh wow, you countered my statement with a bunch of irrelevant crap that has nothing to do with the ELR. You sure showed me, I'm so glad you've set me straight. I don't know how we could go on without Chris Vetters stepping in to tell us all how wrong we are about everything, because I mean after all you've owned a bunch of cars and stuff so obviously you know better than everyone else. Thanks for reminding me.


Laconian

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 18, 2017, 07:11:59 AM
Don't be fooled! The Fit is a better car in almost every way. ~2 seconds faster to 60 (!!!!!), just as good dynamically, way more fun to drive, only down 1 MPG combined....

The CR-Z is a major POS.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

93JC

The CR-Z was just overpriced!!

Payman

Quote from: 93JC on January 18, 2017, 11:47:46 AM
The CR-Z was just overpriced!!

It was mediocre at everything, even for an economy car. It sure was a looker though.

12,000 RPM

The one at my job is sharp. White EX, clean. I don't fear him on the highway though
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Soup DeVille

Quote from: 93JC on January 18, 2017, 11:47:46 AM
The CR-Z was just overpriced!!

It was a Honda experiment to see just how much they could troll those desperate for a modern CRX.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

93JC

Hm, I guess I'm in the minority, I've never liked the look of the CR-Z, and the fact that it's a lame-duck hybrid was the shit icing on a turd cake.

Cookie Monster

Quote from: Rockraven on January 18, 2017, 11:49:57 AM
It was mediocre at everything, even for an economy car. It sure was a looker though.

Bruh it has 2 doors obviously it's good.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

93JC

Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 18, 2017, 12:38:37 PM
It was a Honda experiment to see just how much they could troll those desperate for a modern CRX.

Too true. I remember when they first showed it. My reaction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE1HriDzlJs

Soup DeVille

Great now I'm gonna waste so much time watching Gunnery Sergeant Hartman clips...
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Eye of the Tiger

Still waiting for the CR-Y ...
2024 Mitsubishi Mirage ES

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: Laconian on January 18, 2017, 11:31:23 AM
The CR-Z is a major POS.

so "cute" though

(what, no vomit smiley?)
Will


Eye of the Tiger

2024 Mitsubishi Mirage ES