Tesla

[12,000 RPM]

Why are they losing money then?

"They make money on selling the cars, they lose money on building/designing them" - summary of explanations I've heard from Tesla fanbois

[GoCougs]

Tesla is making money on the 3, S, and X

As discussed previously, "gross margin" is not profitability.

The more cars Tesla makes the more money they lose (also discussed previously).

[Laconian]

Tesla's magic was that they didn't suffer from the Innovator's Dilemma. Established car companies treated EVs as a token cost center for placating environmental agencies. Tesla showed that EVs can deliver record-shattering performance, which the public was completely ignorant of beforehand. Now that the word is out that electrics can kick ass - look at that Pikes Peak run! - big car companies are moving their chips to EV R&D. Tesla will face stiff competition but EV share as a whole will definitely grow.

[GoCougs]

^ The "magic" is predicated on the fact that no one has yet made a legit business out of EVs, which established automakers were well aware of.

[Laconian]

If you pointed to the mild success of the Altair and made the same prediction about Apple Computer...

The situation is different than before because the foundational pieces are coming together. Technologically, EVs are built with lighter and power-dense batteries with sophisticated computer control and better power grid integration. From a demand POV, EVs are fast, convenient, and very much in demand in the pollution-choked growth markets which matter to car cos today.

[GoCougs]

If you pointed to the mild success of the Altair and made the same prediction about Apple Computer...

The situation is different than before because the foundational pieces are coming together. Technologically, EVs are built with lighter and power-dense batteries with sophisticated computer control and better power grid integration. From a demand POV, EVs are fast, convenient, and very much in demand in the pollution-choked growth markets which matter to car cos today.

Thing is, personal/retail computing was a brand new thing, and it so quickly become big business there was little if any time to question its viability. EVs have been around for 100+ years and despite plenty of trying pretty much no one has every made a retail business out of them.

Things are getting better for making a business out of EVs, but there is no clear path, absent extreme government intrusion (which is what EV makers are hedging/hoping for).

[ChrisV]

Obviously not if the company is hemorrhaging money.

Why are they losing money then?

The company is also building out the Supercharger network, building the Gigafactories, and doing a lot of other non-income producing growth.  It's a rapid growth company that makes money on it's products but loses money overall due to other investments in R&D and growth (and also to a small extent putting money into things like SpaceX and Solar City).

The cars are profitable.

[Soup DeVille]

The company is also building out the Supercharger network, building the Gigafactories, and doing a lot of other non-income producing growth.  It's a rapid growth company that makes money on it's products but loses money overall due to other investments in R&D and growth (and also to a small extent putting money into things like SpaceX and Solar City).

The cars are profitable.

That makes no sense. Its like saying "my lemonade stand makes money if I don't count the cost of the lemons."

The company is investing in its own growth, therefore is not making a profit; that makes sense. It makes none to say "selling cars is profitable, but we lose more money making them.".

[Morris Minor]

Maybe we here SPINners are too invested in the glories of reciprocating mass, oil changes & valvetrains to be able to see straight when it comes to EVs.
Teslas are very seductive. People buy on seduction. Not spreadsheets.

[giant_mtb]

Maybe we here SPINners are too invested in the glories of reciprocating mass, oil changes & valvetrains to be able to see straight when it comes to EVs.
Teslas are very seductive. People buy on seduction. Not spreadsheets.

I'm seduced by being able to drive more than 300 miles without needing to take 2 hours to re-fuel.

[r0tor]

Why are they losing money then?

Something about building an assembly plant, a battery facility, R&D on new models, and a nation wide charging network might just account for that...

[Soup DeVille]

Maybe we here SPINners are too invested in the glories of reciprocating mass, oil changes & valvetrains to be able to see straight when it comes to EVs.
Teslas are very seductive. People buy on seduction. Not spreadsheets.

I would actually love a bolt-in EV drivetrain made to fit older cars; something to fit small block Ford or Chevy mounts.

I like the idea of EVs, but I'm not really moved by the way Tesla is styling or equipping their cars, and the Bolt and such just have no style.

[r0tor]

They are all the same? They all revised their projections by 50% on the same day? Post one that matches up to either data set
I agree that Tesla's magic is in how good the Model S looks, and the ugliness/mundaneness of mainstream offerings is a turn off, for me at least.

The notion that mainstream OEMs would intentionally hamstring expensive cars they'd like to sell is ridiculous. A more logical answer is they are playing it safe and going for broad appeal over sex appeal (Chevy Bolt) or they just don't have the cash to build a brand new EV only platform (everyone else). And OEMs ARE starting to inject some sex into their EVs (Porsche Taycan) now that there's enough demand to afford them that opportunity.

Intentionally selling something that will never sell because it looks like shit is an obvious GM strategy for global dominance.

[Soup DeVille]

Something about building an assembly plant, a battery facility, R&D on new models, and a nation wide charging network might just account for that...

Yes, which means they aren't profitable. Which means they're losing money in the business of selling cars.

[MrH]

Something about building an assembly plant, a battery facility, R&D on new models, and a nation wide charging network might just account for that...

What R&D? Engineers are working on the line for the last few months.  Charging network has also flatlined. There is no model Y coming. There is no plan to build the semi

[r0tor]

Yes, which means they aren't profitable. Which means they're losing money in the business of selling cars.

Please show me which car model pays for its R&D and new assembly plants within 2 years of production...

[Soup DeVille]

Please show me which car model pays for its R&D and new assembly plants within 2 years of production...

None.

Which is a perfectly legitimate reason to not be profitable. To say "Oh all our cars are profitable but nothing in our business of making cars is profitable" is just foolishness.

Its really the rate at which they're losing money that's worrisome.

[r0tor]

What R&D? Engineers are working on the line for the last few months.  Charging network has also flatlined. There is no model Y coming. There is no plan to build the semi

You should get paid to bash tesla

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/24/tesla-will-double-number-of-supercharger-stations-in-2017.html

Doubling the charging network is clearly flatlined.   The Y and semi are still in the works - shrug-

[MrH]

That article is over a year old

[r0tor]

None.

Which is a perfectly legitimate reason to not be profitable. To say "Oh all our cars are profitable but nothing in our business of making cars is profitable" is just foolishness.

Its really the rate at which they're losing money that's worrisome.

The goal posts were set at making money on the cars they are selling - which they are.   

[r0tor]

That article is over a year old

So what - do you need a month by month, day by day, or hour by hour "metric"?

[Soup DeVille]

The goal posts were set at making money on the cars they are selling - which they are.   

No, they're not. They're only making money if they ignore a substantial amount of the costs imvolved in making and supporting their cars.

[Soup DeVille]

So what - do you need a month by month, day by day, or hour by hour "metric"?

Something that negates the bad news during that last year would be preferably to a rosy prediction from better days.

[MrH]

Here's day by day. The July cash crunch is real. I've got tons of other data to support if you'd like.

[r0tor]

Lol... Quoting teslacharts

... Holy shit...

[MrH]

So is the data wrong?

[CaminoRacer]

Rotor do you know what overhead is?

[Rich]

Rotor do you know what overhead is?

A cam?

[FoMoJo]

A cam?

[r0tor]

So is the data wrong?

The fact you even pay attention to the largest Tesla asshat short (and previously posted a seeking alpha column) says it all...