Tesla

[SJ_GTI]

Why? He wasn't rude or ambiguous. There's nothing in his emails that has warranted Tesla's practices. You guys are so easily annoyed.

What do you mean, "you guys?" 



I am not here to defend Tesla (I almost never do), I am just pointing out how absurd the youtuber was.

[Soup DeVille]

He didn't do things the way I would have, but that doesn't make him wrong; and in the spectrum of customer service, he was downright professional. If you think he was being absurd, you should see some actually absurd customers sometime.

[SJ_GTI]

He didn't do things the way I would have, but that doesn't make him wrong; and in the spectrum of customer service, he was downright professional. If you think he was being absurd, you should see some actually absurd customers sometime.

Really, you don't think paying insurance on a car you haven't taken delivery of yet (and acting like its Tesla's fault) is absurd?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.

[MrH]

It's 100% Tesla's fault for not being able to give him a date that he'll have his car.

[giant_mtb]

Really, you don't think paying insurance on a car you haven't taken delivery of yet (and acting like its Tesla's fault) is absurd?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.

The whole insurance thing is beside the point, IMO.  The real tragedy is the inability of Tezla to deliver the car in the first place.  Or even give him an accurate time table of when to expect it. 

[12,000 RPM]

I am not here to defend Tesla (I almost never do), I am just pointing out how absurd the youtuber was.

His absurdity (by your standards) is irrelevant in the context of what actually matters- Tesla's CPO shitshow. You act like if he hadn't started paying insurance on the car or been less annoying (to you) Tesla would have delivered it by now.

[SJ_GTI]

His absurdity (by your standards) is irrelevant in the context of what actually matters- Tesla's CPO shitshow. You act like if he hadn't started paying insurance on the car or been less annoying (to you) Tesla would have delivered it by now.

That's not what I said or how I am acting.

The faster delivery thing is something you made up a few posts ago. This is what i actually posted re: Tesla's issue in this particular scenario:

PS. I don't mean the above as a defense of Tesla. They shouldn't put a used car up for sale until they have the title IMHO, but I have heard of regular car dealers doing the same thing.

I think "you guys" problem is that you see everything in an "us vs them" point of view.

For an actual person, instead of internet persona, its possible to see that Tesla messed up AND this youtuber made things more difficult for himself. Its not an either/or situation.

[CaminoRacer]

Victim blaming!

[MrH]

You have really lofty expectations for a random dude on YouTube.  He's actually more informed on how it all works than the general public is.

The story is not how uninformed the public is about how car buying works.  It's how terrible Tesla is at it.

[CaminoRacer]

And how dealerships can usually answer those same questions in about 20 seconds. And deliver the car the same day.

[MrH]

It points to more than just incompetence. Here's a good summary of what is potentially going on.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1080841512223690753.html

[Soup DeVille]

Really, you don't think paying insurance on a car you haven't taken delivery of yet (and acting like its Tesla's fault) is absurd?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.

By the time he actually paid for insurance, Tesla had dropped the ball long before then.

Yes, you need to have insurance on a car to finance it, and to take delivery of it, so yeah, you put insurance on the car before you evr get it.

No, I wouldn't have paid the insurance when I still didn't have a car after 30 days; but by then, it was indeed Tesla's screwup.

[GoCougs]

Really, you don't think paying insurance on a car you haven't taken delivery of yet (and acting like its Tesla's fault) is absurd?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.

He bought the car, and to do so, he had to have insurance (because he financed it through Tesla). Then the process starts in getting the car to him. It's also in his best interest to have insurance, as if the car is damaged or stolen in transit, he is protected.

[GoCougs]

You have really lofty expectations for a random dude on YouTube.  He's actually more informed on how it all works than the general public is.

The story is not how uninformed the public is about how car buying works.  It's how terrible Tesla is at it.

I've watched a few of his rebuild vids. Dude is legit sharp.

I wouldn't have done it by email however - that is an awful way to make progress IME.

[MrH]

You guys are hung up on the wrong thing.  These are massive signs of fraud, and you're all worried about some dude paying 2 extra months for insurance

[CaminoRacer]

It's a common startup mindset to do whatever it takes to get cash flowing in based on future promises. A real nightmare for the people in charge of operations. And def sketchy.

[SJ_GTI]

[12,000 RPM]

It's a common startup mindset to do whatever it takes to get cash flowing in based on future promises. A real nightmare for the people in charge of operations. And def sketchy.

Yea dude might have shined a light on something else the SEC might want to look at.

I wonder if non-refundable deposits are legal through a dealership. I'm assuming not because I've never heard of such a practice outside of for exotic allocations.

But let's get back to him paying insurance and corresponding through email.............................................

[2o6]

Y'all get hung up on some of the most minute details. Two insurance payments totaling what...$750?  $1000 max?

[Soup DeVille]

Y'all get hung up on some of the most minute details. Two insurance payments totaling what...$750?  $1000 max?

Holy shit, I'd hope not.

You gettin' those young black dude rates, man.

[BimmerM3]

It's a common startup mindset to do whatever it takes to get cash flowing in based on future promises. A real nightmare for the people in charge of operations. And def sketchy.

Yeah, honestly most of what's going on here is pretty common in software - it's just a lot more visible to the public when it's a physical product from a high profile company. Not that that's an excuse though - there are plenty of device manufacturers that don't have these issues, or at least have them to a much lesser extent. Of course, Tesla's "device" is way more complicated than other tech devices.

4th frame, in particular:

[MrH]

It's a common startup mindset to do whatever it takes to get cash flowing in based on future promises. A real nightmare for the people in charge of operations. And def sketchy.

Selling out of trust isn't just some common thing start ups do that's kind of sketchy.  It's a felony.

[2o6]

Holy shit, I'd hope not.

You gettin' those young black dude rates, man.

The guy said that the Model X was expensive to insure.

[CaminoRacer]

Quick Google shows that some people are getting quotes for $370-380 a month. Others are getting cheaper rates than that through better companies.

[giant_mtb]

That seems really expensive.  I insure my truck and my shop for like $185/month. 

[12,000 RPM]

He's in NYC so I wouldn't doubt $750-1000 being one month's payment

I was paying $300 a month or so for liability only on my POS Accord like 10 years ago. But again he couldn't get financing without insurance so it is what it is.

[MX793]

Yeah, honestly most of what's going on here is pretty common in software - it's just a lot more visible to the public when it's a physical product from a high profile company. Not that that's an excuse though - there are plenty of device manufacturers that don't have these issues, or at least have them to a much lesser extent. Of course, Tesla's "device" is way more complicated than other tech devices.

4th frame, in particular:

There is definitely a very different mentality between SW engineers and mechanical/HW engineers with regards to what is construed as good enough.  Mostly because SW bugs can always be fixed with a patch or update, which is considerably less expensive than fixing a mistake on physical product.  A power train engineer screws up when spec'ing valve springs, and the company needs to recall all of the faulty engines, take them apart, replace the springs with new ones, and the old defective ones go to scrap.  Millions in material that needs to be replaced, probably 8 hours per vehicle to fix.  If the guys writing the engine control code screw up, they send out a CD or flash drive with a SW update to the dealerships and they just have customers come in and a tech reflashes the ECU in like 15 minutes.  Minimal material cost, minimal labor cost to remediate.

[FoMoJo]

Yeah, honestly most of what's going on here is pretty common in software - it's just a lot more visible to the public when it's a physical product from a high profile company. Not that that's an excuse though - there are plenty of device manufacturers that don't have these issues, or at least have them to a much lesser extent. Of course, Tesla's "device" is way more complicated than other tech devices.

4th frame, in particular:

Most software developers are mediocre. 

[Laconian]

Software quality is exxxxtreeemely difficult to verify, thanks to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem and the halting problem... that is, it's impossible to statically verify Turing-complete software from "outside the system". We can do things to intuit where bugs might lie since there are often certain observable patterns and behaviors that indicate the presence of bugs, but they're imperfect approximations. The productive output of other engineering disciplines can be analyzed and verified ad nauseum. Software, on the other hand, remains a black box.

afty here is a really strong domain expert in the realm of static analysis, actually.

[CaminoRacer]

AKA, no matter how thorough your coding is, some idiot will do something you'd never imagine anyone would do & break it?