Tesla

[r0tor]

Smell of desperation is strong

[giant_mtb]

If Tesla partook in wrongdoing, they should absolutely be held responsible. But, I don't think any of it is egregious enough that they should be shut down, etc etc.  Live and learn, I guess...they keep pressing forward giving an admittedly impressive few number of fucks.

[MrH]

If Tesla partook in wrongdoing, they should absolutely be held responsible. But, I don't think any of it is egregious enough that they should be shut down, etc etc.  Live and learn, I guess...they keep pressing forward giving an admittedly impressive few number of fucks.

Have you been following it closely enough to know what's been happening to make that judgement?

[giant_mtb]

Have you been following it closely enough to know what's been happening to make that judgement?

Not really, I just listen to you and read most of the links you post. Tis just my opinion.

[GoCougs]

The SEC is an unmitigated failure WRT Tesla, as it was with Madoff, Enron, WorldCom, etc. Nothing new. Tesla is also a perfect illustration of the dangers of retail investing.

Tesla has never been profitable and there is no path by which Tesla will ever be profitable. If it ever gets there, it won't ever be better than established players. Industry average is 5% profit and P/E of 10. So at Tesla's current revenue that is 10 p/e * $25B revenue *0.05 margin /184MM outstanding shares = $68/share.

Tesla will be the short of the century.

[AutobahnSHO]

Tesla will be the short of the century.

The problem is people are fooled by the snake oil. Some day the market will figure it out and you will be correct, and the people who are going nuts right now "making money" will be angry and demand justice.

[r0tor]

I heard Tesla was the short of the century at $300... It's only triple that now

[MrH]

I heard Tesla was the short of the century at $300... It's only triple that now

Stock price does not negate fraud.

[CaminoRacer]

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update

Tesla has remotely disabled driver assistance features on a used Model S after it was sold to a customer, Jalopnik reports. The company now claims that the owner of the car, who purchased it from a third-party dealer — a dealer who bought it at an auction held by Tesla itself — "did not pay" for the features and therefore is not eligible to use them.

The features were enabled when the dealer bought the car, and they were advertised as part of the package when the car was sold to its owner.

The owner in question, who Jalopnik refers to as Alec, purchased the car last December. The dealer bought the car a month earlier from a Tesla auction, with both "Enhanced Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving Mode" features intact, according to Jalopnik, which reviewed documents related to the car's ownership and sale.

The dealer then listed the Model S, advertising both features. However, unbeknownst to the dealer, Tesla had independently conducted a software "audit" of the car after selling it, and disabled those features in a December update. The end result: when Alec picked up the car on December 20th, he did not have access to all its advertised features.

WOW

[MrH]

[r0tor]

I wonder if you end up accepting some legal disclaimers when you buy the FSD features... Therefore it's something each owner needs to purchase

[MX793]

I wonder if you end up accepting some legal disclaimers when you buy the FSD features... Therefore it's something each owner needs to purchase

If true, that's a hell of a scam.

[MrH]

No way tesla thought that far ahead.  It's just another cash grab.  This company is morally bankrupt and has been for quite some time.

[Soup DeVille]

I wonder if you end up accepting some legal disclaimers when you buy the FSD features... Therefore it's something each owner needs to purchase

There is some sort of EULA involved, but I haven't had any luck finding the actual text thereof.

When Tesla rolled out FSD, they were clear that using it as a Lyft/Uber would violate that EULA and they could revoke the license. I haven't heard anything about removing features after a sale until now.

But, apparently, the policy is that any vehicle sold back to Tesla is returned to base trim as far as software goes regardless of what the original window sticker said (its unclear if badges are removed too or not). Tesla then will reinstall those features, but only at full new car sticker prices. Its unclear to me how this effects resale price.

If however, you sell the car third party, its supposed to retain all the original options,  which makes sense. I wonder however, if the new owner has to sign their own EULA.

[AutobahnSHO]

laws just can't keep up with cYbEr

[Soup DeVille]

No way tesla thought that far ahead.  It's just another cash grab.  This company is morally bankrupt and has been for quite some time.

I also wonder of there's room in their EULA to turn bought and paid for features into a monthly subscription after a certain period of time.

[CaminoRacer]

There is some sort of EULA involved, but I haven't had any luck finding the actual text thereof.

When Tesla rolled out FSD, they were clear that using it as a Lyft/Uber would violate that EULA and they could revoke the license. I haven't heard anything about removing features after a sale until now.

But, apparently, the policy is that any vehicle sold back to Tesla is returned to base trim as far as software goes regardless of what the original window sticker said (its unclear if badges are removed too or not). Tesla then will reinstall those features, but only at full new car sticker prices. Its unclear to me how this effects resale price.

If however, you sell the car third party, its supposed to retain all the original options,  which makes sense. I wonder however, if the new owner has to sign their own EULA.

Never buying a Tesla now.

[Soup DeVille]

Never buying a Tesla now.

The biggest thing I like about Tesla is that they are refusing to do the normal dealer network thing, which I hate, is horribly outdated, and needs to die.

However, I want to be able to use the car I bought in the way I see fit, to actually own it (and not just be a licensed user), and sell it when I want and to whom I want.

[CaminoRacer]

The biggest thing I like about Tesla is that they are refusing to do the normal dealer network thing, which I hate, is horribly outdated, and needs to die.

However, I want to be able to use the car I bought in the way I see fit, to actually own it (and not just be a licensed user), and sell it when I want and to whom I want.

100% agree

[GoCougs]

The biggest thing I like about Tesla is that they are refusing to do the normal dealer network thing, which I hate, is horribly outdated, and needs to die.

However, I want to be able to use the car I bought in the way I see fit, to actually own it (and not just be a licensed user), and sell it when I want and to whom I want.

Tesla's intent in cutting out the dealer was to pull these and other 'shens. Not a knock against Tesla really - other automakers would pull these 'shens too if they were also selling direct to consumer.

You're not ever going to get both direct to consumer auto sales and a laissez faire ownership experience. The US auto dealer model is a major PITA, but it provides a huge benefit in checking adverse automaker behavior.

[Soup DeVille]

I can buy lots of other things direct from the manufacturer and none of them come with strings attached; why should cars be different, and how does a dealership protect against those shenanigans anyways?

[Laconian]

John Deere has dealerships, and they DRM their commercial farm equipment to hell.

[MX793]

John Deere has dealerships, and they DRM their commercial farm equipment to hell.

Pretty sure they ended up losing their DRM case.

[GoCougs]

I can buy lots of other things direct from the manufacturer and none of them come with strings attached; why should cars be different, and how does a dealership protect against those shenanigans anyways?

It's different because you're not buying a thing as complicated as a modern car direct from a manufacturer. Plus add in the insane amounts regulation and low margins and automakers would love such control as Tesla is exerting in order to maximize their interests.

Dealerships are generally part of networks of some sort, and when automakers behave badly or otherwise cause problems for dealers, dealers can fight back, such as the ginormous judgements against VW for dieselgate.

As it pertains to Tesla, imagine Tesla has a dealer network, and Tesla tries these 'shens with removing options over the air. Dealer customers will be very unhappy, which makes dealers unhappy, and they'd respond somehow.

This dealer feedback loop is a major check on automakers.

[Soup DeVille]

Boeing sells direct to customers.

[GoCougs]

Boeing sells direct to customers.

And Boeing has ALL sorts of IP protections and contracts about what an airline can and can't do to 787 or whatever.

[MX793]

And Boeing has ALL sorts of IP protections and contracts about what an airline can and can't do to 787 or whatever.

Also, components like brakes are basically leased.

[CaminoRacer]

Also, components like brakes are basically leased.

wat

[MX793]

wat

Guy I work with used to do aircraft brake and landing gear design.  Airlines basically buy a brake contract.

[AutobahnSHO]

Guy I work with used to do aircraft brake and landing gear design.  Airlines basically buy a brake contract.

That industry is all levels of wacky. I'm sure the engine maintenance is nuts too.