Tesla

[GoCougs]

And government in charge of it all. No, thanks, and not only because it wouldn't work.

Driving is a responsibility and a privilege and the cornerstone of US success - as an ersatz right it's going to go poorly.

[Morris Minor]

Musk Lanes would be like the Clear security lines at the airports: pay to play. 

[AutobahnSHO]

Any other company would have been sued into the ground by now over wrecks and other shenanigans.

[r0tor]

https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/guid/6AA12BB8-5803-11EA-BF64-5AC3A6D77C0D

Love it... 1 Tesla driver dies while playing a video game while driving and it is a huge news story.


Meanwhile 4,637 people died in the US in 2018 from playing with their phone while driving regular old cars... Not a news story though

[Morris Minor]

Love it... 1 Tesla driver dies while playing a video game while driving and it is a huge news story.


Meanwhile 4,637 people died in the US in 2018 from playing with their phone while driving regular old cars... Not a news story though

I know - trash media at work. I suppose we should be glad he was removed from the gene pool.

[NomisR]

Love it... 1 Tesla driver dies while playing a video game while driving and it is a huge news story.


Meanwhile 4,637 people died in the US in 2018 from playing with their phone while driving regular old cars... Not a news story though

You were panning what GM was doing with Supercruise and praising Telsa for not requiring it, and when someone dies, you're saying it's not that big of a deal because people die all the time? 

Things like this happening is what people's problem with Tesla lies, the fact that they use deceiving naming such as autopilot or biohazard mode, making people believe that it could do what it couldn't actually do. 

[giant_mtb]

Love it... 1 Tesla driver dies while playing a video game while driving and it is a huge news story.


Meanwhile 4,637 people died in the US in 2018 from playing with their phone while driving regular old cars... Not a news story though

You miss the point. The Tesla is supposedly supposed to prevent these types of accidents/deaths. Regular old cars aren't.

And Teslas account for probably like .003% of vehicles on the road in the US.

[Morris Minor]

You were panning what GM was doing with Supercruise and praising Telsa for not requiring it, and when someone dies, you're saying it's not that big of a deal because people die all the time? 

Things like this happening is what people's problem with Tesla lies, the fact that they use deceiving naming such as autopilot or biohazard mode, making people believe that it could do what it couldn't actually do. 

Autopilots in planes do not make them autonomous. They require monitoring, adjusting etc. If you want to change say the heading, or the speed, or the altitude, you have to dial in the settings, then execute. The human pilot, the Pilot Flying, is still flying the plane.

So Tesla's system is not too far off from being analogous to what goes on on a plane. In hindsight maybe they could have called it PilotAssist or TeslAssist or something. But to me it's not a big deal.
Dumbfucks would still reliably do the wrong thing.

[MrH]

From Ed Niedermeyer on twitter:

The NTSB findings and recommendations on the fatal Walter Huang crash are now available (PDF here: ntsb.gov/news/events/Do...). Here are a few of what I believe are the most consequential:
Finding 11: "The Tesla Autopilot system did not provide an effective means of monitoring the driver's
level of engagement with the driving task."
Finding 15: Because monitoring of driver-applied steering wheel torque is an ineffective surrogate measure of driver engagement, performance standards should be developed pertaining to an effective method of ensuring driver engagement in SAE L2 partial driving automation systems
Finding 16: If Tesla Inc. does not incorporate system safeguards that limit the use of the Autopilot system to those conditions for which it was designed, continued use of the system beyond its operational design domain is foreseeable and the risk for future crashes will remain.
Finding 17: NHTSA's failure to ensure that vehicle manufacturers of SAE Level 2 driving automation systems are incorporating appropriate system safeguards to limit operation of these systems to the operational design domain compromises safety.
Finding 19: The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's approach to the oversight of automated vehicles is misguided, because it essentially relies on waiting for problems to occur rather than addressing safety issues proactively.
Combining Findings 20 and 21 here, since they are both related and too long to fit into single tweets. I can't recall NTSB ever challenging NHTSA as directly as they did in today's hearing and in these findings.

These are NTSB's Recommendations to NTSB in the wake of this investigation, as well as past investigations into the safety of Tesla's Autopilot system. Recommendations 2 and 4 strike me as being the most consequential.


Here are the two recommendations that NTSB already made to NHTSA, and are now reiterating. Both were already classified "Open-Unacceptable Action," reflecting NTSB's dissatisfaction with NHTSA's response (or lack thereof).

Finally, the big one: two previously-made NTSB recommendations to Tesla itself that the board has now reiterated and reclassified as "Open―Unacceptable Response."

[r0tor]

You were panning what GM was doing with Supercruise and praising Telsa for not requiring it, and when someone dies, you're saying it's not that big of a deal because people die all the time? 

Things like this happening is what people's problem with Tesla lies, the fact that they use deceiving naming such as autopilot or biohazard mode, making people believe that it could do what it couldn't actually do. 

Are we going to install the same system on conventional vehicles to prevent them from looking away from the road?

What is wrong with a system that is 6x safer thAn the US average driver? What because it's not perfect - which is of course never achievable?

https://electrek.co/2020/01/16/tesla-crashes-autopilot-increase-better-without-autopilot/

[MrH]

It's not 6 times safer.  Stop repeating that.  It's total BS.  There is zero reliable data backing this up.

Autopilot is primarily used on high ways only, and when compared to any other modern car on the highway (especially those with any sort of well sorted Level 2 system), the crash rates are higher, and the death rate with the crashes is significantly higher.  To just take crash rate per mile with auto pilot on vs auto pilot off is intentionally misleading and intellectually dishonest.

[NomisR]

Autopilots in planes do not make them autonomous. They require monitoring, adjusting etc. If you want to change say the heading, or the speed, or the altitude, you have to dial in the settings, then execute. The human pilot, the Pilot Flying, is still flying the plane.

So Tesla's system is not too far off from being analogous to what goes on on a plane. In hindsight maybe they could have called it PilotAssist or TeslAssist or something. But to me it's not a big deal.
Dumbfucks would still reliably do the wrong thing.

That's definitely true but I don't think that's how the layman understands it, and from the way Tesla describes it, it's definitely misleading. 

Just the basic version of accelerate, steer, brake automatically?  They're marketing autopilot like a L4 autonomous driving but in reality it's at L2 and if you're generous, and L3.

[NomisR]

Are we going to install the same system on conventional vehicles to prevent them from looking away from the road?

It's the way it's marketed.  It's basically a more improved version of a cruise control that keeps it's distance, lane keep assist, and assistive braking, but not what they advertise it as with the standard autopilot.

[giant_mtb]

If you want to see how good a Tesla actually is at fully autonomous driving, just look at the Summon feature. lol

https://youtu.be/OdPE2WRSTw0

https://youtu.be/3o2sI37xwOc

https://youtu.be/VbVoTK-lM00

[Soup DeVille]

Autopilots in planes do not make them autonomous. They require monitoring, adjusting etc. If you want to change say the heading, or the speed, or the altitude, you have to dial in the settings, then execute. The human pilot, the Pilot Flying, is still flying the plane.

So Tesla's system is not too far off from being analogous to what goes on on a plane. In hindsight maybe they could have called it PilotAssist or TeslAssist or something. But to me it's not a big deal.
Dumbfucks would still reliably do the wrong thing.

Autopilot is one thing, "Full Self Driving" is another.

[r0tor]

If you want to see how good a Tesla actually is at fully autonomous driving, just look at the Summon feature. lol

https://youtu.be/OdPE2WRSTw0

https://youtu.be/3o2sI37xwOc

https://youtu.be/VbVoTK-lM00

And the million + successful smart summons?

[giant_mtb]

And the million + successful smart summons?

Source, please?  And no, I wouldn't count the car creeping 4' out of a space so you can get in the door easier as a successful SS since the product is supposed to be able to navigate a lot and pick you up at the door.

https://www.consumerreports.org/automotive-technology/teslas-smart-summon-performance-doesnt-match-marketing-hype/

Consumer Reports tested Tesla's recently launched Smart Summon feature on our Model 3, and we found that the automation was glitchy and at times worked intermittently, without a lot of obvious benefits for consumers.

😬😬😬

[MX793]

Love it... 1 Tesla driver dies while playing a video game while driving and it is a huge news story.


Meanwhile 4,637 people died in the US in 2018 from playing with their phone while driving regular old cars... Not a news story though

Those other people weren't driving cars with half-baked "autonomous driving features" pitched as "autopilot" that outright encourages playing video games, reading, taking a nap, etc...

If you don't want to pay attention to the road and drive, call a cab or take a bus or train.

[GoCougs]

Smart summons is awful. It's pretty much a party joke (at least to me) whenever I'm in a Tesla. Parking lots are even worse with variability. IME it's 50% reliable; or, about as good as "Autopilot" actually autonomously driving:

Can't read stop lines on pavement.
Can't read one-way arrows on pavement.
Can't discern right-of-way if bushes are at the corners of intersections.
If a car is backing out, or has backed out, the Tesla gets right up on its bumper before stopping, which prevents the other driver from fully backing out.

I will say though, it's better than I would have thought, and I've not seen any actual accidents, but it's a colossally bad idea and shows how out of touch both Tesla and its fans are.

[r0tor]

Those other people weren't driving cars with half-baked "autonomous driving features" pitched as "autopilot" that outright encourages playing video games, reading, taking a nap, etc...

If you don't want to pay attention to the road and drive, call a cab or take a bus or train.

A person can choose to respect the dangers of the road and pay fucking attention while driving a Focus or a Model 3 with or without any safety or autonomous features turned on.  It's on the driver.  Everyday for centuries assholes are drinking and driving, read books, watching movies, doing their makeup and messing with their phones .  Until Tesla came along, we never criticized automakers for not doing enough to prohibit drivers from doing everything but driving while behind the wheel.  We simply called these drivers assholes.  For every asshole sleeping in a Tesla there is an asshole that hacked his infotainment to watch YouTube while driving.

This notion of "oh its crap because it's not perfect" is nonsense. The simple question should be is it at least as good as the average to above average driver - if the answer is yes (and all stats point that way) thEn it's a net positive on the road and should be considered a success rather then failure.  There is literally nothing in this planet that would stand up to a "it shouldn't be sold if its not perfect" litmus test.

[Soup DeVille]

So, who said "its crap because its not perfect?" Or is that just a strawman you're using to get upset about?


(but no, they haven't been messing with their phones while driving for centuries)

[r0tor]

(but no, they haven't been messing with their phones while driving for centuries)

Talk about a strawman...

[Soup DeVille]

Talk about a strawman...

"Everyday for centuries assholes are drinking and driving, read books, watching movies, doing their makeup and messing with their phones . "

Your direct quote.

[Soup DeVille]

A person can choose to respect the dangers of the road and pay fucking attention while driving a Focus or a Model 3 with or without any safety or autonomous features turned on.  It's on the driver.  Everyday for centuries assholes are drinking and driving, read books, watching movies, doing their makeup and messing with their phones .  Until Tesla came along, we never criticized automakers for not doing enough to prohibit drivers from doing everything but driving while behind the wheel.  We simply called these drivers assholes.  For every asshole sleeping in a Tesla there is an asshole that hacked his infotainment to watch YouTube while driving.

This notion of "oh its crap because it's not perfect" is nonsense. The simple question should be is it at least as good as the average to above average driver - if the answer is yes (and all stats point that way) thEn it's a net positive on the road and should be considered a success rather then failure.  There is literally nothing in this planet that would stand up to a "it shouldn't be sold if its not perfect" litmus test.

[r0tor]

"Everyday for centuries assholes are drinking and driving, read books, watching movies, doing their makeup and messing with their phones . "

Your direct quote.

Yea, I can't compete on that level of dickhead

[Soup DeVille]

Yea, I can't compete on that level of dickhead

Oh, sure you can. Those were, after all, your own words.

They were wrong. I mean, they're not the only things you've said that were wrong, but they were some of the more amusingly wrong words you've said.

A strawman, by the way, is when one makes arguments against statements that were never said, or positions that were never stated. You seem confused about that.

A dickhead, to continue, is one that gets pissed and resorts to insult when they have their own words read back to them. There may be some confusion on your part there as well.

[Soup DeVille]

Yea, I can't compete on that level of dickhead

Oh, I hope you don't mind me using this as my new sig line

[MX793]

"Everyday for centuries assholes are drinking and driving, read books, watching movies, doing their makeup and messing with their phones . "

Your direct quote.

Alexander Hamilton was notorious for texting while weaving through LA rush hour traffic on the 405.

[MX793]

A person can choose to respect the dangers of the road and pay fucking attention while driving a Focus or a Model 3 with or without any safety or autonomous features turned on.  It's on the driver.  Everyday for centuries assholes are drinking and driving, read books, watching movies, doing their makeup and messing with their phones .  Until Tesla came along, we never criticized automakers for not doing enough to prohibit drivers from doing everything but driving while behind the wheel.  We simply called these drivers assholes.  For every asshole sleeping in a Tesla there is an asshole that hacked his infotainment to watch YouTube while driving.

This notion of "oh its crap because it's not perfect" is nonsense. The simple question should be is it at least as good as the average to above average driver - if the answer is yes (and all stats point that way) thEn it's a net positive on the road and should be considered a success rather then failure.  There is literally nothing in this planet that would stand up to a "it shouldn't be sold if its not perfect" litmus test.

How many attentive, unimpaired drivers have smashed into the back of parked emergency vehicles that have their lights on while traveling at highway speeds?  How many have plowed fatally into guardrails?

Safety net systems are great.  Even if they aren't 100% perfect in every situation. 

Systems misleadingly marketed as "Autopilot" that encourage people to tune out aren't helpful.

[veeman]

One of these days a Tesla is going to kill a child in a parking lot because it was "summoned" by the owner and Tesla smart summon is going to be disabled. 

I watched my brother in law smart summon his Tesla in a poorly lit shopping plaza parking lot in the night.  It took a long time but the Tesla did make it to us.  I told him that this was real cool, like Knight Rider cool, but you're a dumbass if you think this is a good idea when people are walking in the parking lot near your car.  He said he's always watching the car when he summons it.  I said you're still a dumbass if you think it's safe to do it when people are even somewhat near your car.