Tesla

[CaminoRacer]

There's FSD which is $10k and Autopilot which comes with the car. The 75 mph thing (soon 80 — https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-pure-vision-autopilot-80-mph-max-speed-update-elon-musk/) is Autopilot, so you'll get that whether you want it or not. I suggest you try it before writing it off.

I don't think we'll ever see working FSD in current Teslas, I don't think the sensor suite is sufficient. I certainly didn't buy it on mine. FWIW, I *do* think we will see real L5 self driving at some point, but more likely from Waymo or Cruise than Tesla.

Ah that's better. Also I don't know why people would pay $10k for a feature that's not out yet

[MrH]

It's text book fraud.  I don't know why people buy it, but more importantly why the FTC allows for it to be "sold".

[Morris Minor]

It's text book fraud.  I don't know why people buy it, but more importantly why the FTC allows for it to be "sold".

Tesla's site

Full Self-Driving Capability
$10,000

Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Autopark
Summon
Full Self-Driving Computer *
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control
Coming later this year
Autosteer on city streets
The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.


* Full Self-Driving Computer
Tesla-designed silicon optimized for computer vision enables detailed, onscreen environment visualization and eventual Full Self-Driving Capability through over-the-air software updates.

[r0tor]

How dare Tesla charge money for things... Complete fraud

[Morris Minor]

I'll watch them later. Looking at the link though, these are all Sandy Munro videos. The dude has absolutely zero credibility. He's admitted to buy Tesla stock and how much he's made off of it. He pumps Tesla stock all day now that he's an investor. Terribly unethical.

I've known about him since my auto days. People think he's a functional expert on all things manufacturing and quality, when it reality, he's cheap contract labor for OEMs if they want some sort of tear down idea on something. If they want real, in depth knowledge, they do it internally. Their experts in these areas are infinitely more knowledgeable than someone like Sandy Munro.

He needs to be arrested for praising the Mach E - proof, if ever any were needed, that he's in the pay of TSLA shorts.
He likes RAM 1500 trucks - proof, if ever any were needed, , that he's in the pay of Stellantis. (take one at bedtime  - may cause conspiracy theory delusions in Teslaphobes)

[Soup DeVille]

How dare Tesla charge money for things... Complete fraud

The way I understand it is they're charging money for the promise of a thing which they don't have and don't yet know how to make.

[Morris Minor]

The way I understand it is they're charging money for the promise of a thing which they don't have and don't yet know how to make.

$10K is the price of the bet on whether they'll be able to pull the trigger on future autonomy.
Plus you get
Autopilot navigation
Auto lane change
Autopark
Summon
Traffic light & stop sign control
City streets autosteer "later this year."

[12,000 RPM]

I don't see how Tesla selling Autopilot is any different from all the other fucked up things corporations do for profit that often gets flat out praise and impassioned defense here.

Werent we just discussing how corporations should keep gaslighting their employees from discussing salaries with each other and how anyone who doesn't know their worth is stupid and deserves whatever they get?

I guess corporate morality is dependent on whether you have taken a short or long position on a certain company or whether you're a beneficiary of scummy practices. Full disclosure, if I have any TSLA holdings it's bundled up in something like VOO... like I said I don't like Musk but not enough to go through the hassle of divesting or taking a short position. The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.

[Submariner]

I thought Tesla's already had a high degree of driving autonomy. 

Fully "driverless" cars are probably a decade away at most and it seems that the problem is more software than hardware.  Tesla shouldn't be charging 10k for a promise, but it seems that they are offering some actual features right this minute, so it's less of a lie and more of an exaggerated truth.

[12,000 RPM]

If people want to pay for a promise from Elon Musk they should be free to. I doubt the people complaining about Autopilot have anything against payday loans or w/e. It's all about getting Tesla's stock to zero to clear short positions.

[GoCougs]

Google/Waymo is the furthest along, and with far better talent churning away for ~15 years, spending billions of $$$, driving millions of miles and burning millions of gallons of gazoline, the best that can be mustered are super expensive cars running routes that took ~4 years to map in the world's easiest driving environment (Phoenix, AZ - new infra, flat, and no rain or snow, or extended dark winters). And, after all that, it isn't 100% capable nor is it all that popular.

$10K you say? Sounds like a steal (har, har).

[Morris Minor]

My son's employers trial their autonomy software in San Francisco. Perfect for any startup in Silicon Valley: one of the most broken, fucked-up, poorly-run cities, full of edge-case crazies, is right on your doorstep.

[MrH]

How dare Tesla charge money for things... Complete fraud

Yes, charging customers for years and years for something that doesn't exist.  Raising capital by claiming they've solved it, and in actuality, have never been close, do not have a path forward with their current hardware, and will never be able to deliver.  It's text book fraud. 

[MrH]

I don't see how Tesla selling Autopilot is any different from all the other fucked up things corporations do for profit that often gets flat out praise and impassioned defense here.

Werent we just discussing how corporations should keep gaslighting their employees from discussing salaries with each other and how anyone who doesn't know their worth is stupid and deserves whatever they get?

I guess corporate morality is dependent on whether you have taken a short or long position on a certain company or whether you're a beneficiary of scummy practices. Full disclosure, if I have any TSLA holdings it's bundled up in something like VOO... like I said I don't like Musk but not enough to go through the hassle of divesting or taking a short position. The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.

I don't have any positions in Tesla currently.  That has nothing to do with it.

Selling a fictitious product with no path forward on ever delivering is somehow similar to saying a poorly written law in Colorado forcing employers to disclose salary range is a dumb idea?  This isn't even apples to oranges.  Nothing is similar about the two scenarios.

[MrH]

My son's employers trial their autonomy software in San Francisco. Perfect for any startup in Silicon Valley: one of the most broken, fucked-up, poorly-run cities, full of edge-case crazies, is right on your doorstep.

Yep, and they log their miles, and number of disengagements.  They're working hard and still quite a ways off.  And they're light years beyond Tesla.

[r0tor]

All the autonomous driving software is based off of machine learning and AI algorithms.  Those algorithms can only ever be as good as the data they are trained from.  Tesla has more *real world* data then anyone which puts them at a massive advantage.

[GoCougs]

All the autonomous driving software is based off of machine learning and AI algorithms.  Those algorithms can only ever be as good as the data they are trained from.  Tesla has more *real world* data then anyone which puts them at a massive advantage.

Are you familiar with AI/ML? It's just clever programming with a pipe into some data store. It's a moderate amount of fake news really. There's nothing new under the sun.

The best system thus far is Waymo, and it uses cameras, LIDAR and radar, and though better, won't be near enough either. It'll need the infrastructure piece (i.e., homogenized road construction, if not AD-only roads) and probably some sort of air traffic control-like fleet management system.

[r0tor]

Yea... I happen to do ML for a good portion of my job.  It needs to have a defect in it's learned data before it can detect/predict a defect in real life.  You need a massive amount of data from the real world to get information on all the different ways humans screw up when driving.  You don't get that from a closed loop test track or driving at 25mph on defined roads.

LIDAR is unneeded

[GoCougs]

Yea... I happen to do ML for a good portion of my job.  It needs to have a defect in it's learned data before it can detect/predict a defect in real life.  You need a massive amount of data from the real world to get information on all the different ways humans screw up when driving.  You don't get that from a closed loop test track or driving at 25mph on defined roads.

LIDAR is unneeded

Waymo AD driving sorta works however profoundly limited its environment. Tesla AD does NOT work, so there's that.

You're just training models and limit samples, like me. That's easy. You're not the comp sci resource hammering out the algos or system design or architecture. It's not magic pr a cure-all, but it is resource heavy (both talent and computing), and Tesla lacks in both, relative to Waymo (by like 1,000x or more, literally).

Though I have nothing to do with Waymo (or Cruise) I have to think they knew that the highly controlled and curated "robo-taxi" approach was better for control and characterization vs. spying on its customers. Plus of course with that sensor suite that is one expensive-ass vehicle the likes of which is not in any way affordable at present.

None if it will ever work without my aforementioned agitations, but Waymo (and Cruise) will get way way closer than Tesla.

[Morris Minor]

For me - the autonomy thing is the least interesting aspect of Tesla. I'm intrigued by their battery tech, drivetrains, first-principles thinking, & the high-stakes willingness to try new stuff, & learn on the fly.
I'm unchanged in my opinion that they made a huge mistake in building a factory within the borders of the EU.... compounded by choosing Germany... compounded again by choosing the state of Brandenburg.

[MrH]

Yea... I happen to do ML for a good portion of my job.  It needs to have a defect in it's learned data before it can detect/predict a defect in real life.  You need a massive amount of data from the real world to get information on all the different ways humans screw up when driving.  You don't get that from a closed loop test track or driving at 25mph on defined roads.

LIDAR is unneeded

Holy fucking shit. I'm truly speechless.

[veeman]

For me - the autonomy thing is the least interesting aspect of Tesla. I'm intrigued by their battery tech, drivetrains, first-principles thinking, & the high-stakes willingness to try new stuff, & learn on the fly.
I'm unchanged in my opinion that they made a huge mistake in building a factory within the borders of the EU.... compounded by choosing Germany... compounded again by choosing the state of Brandenburg.

I think it's very beneficial for a car company to be embedded within the fabric of the economy of where they plan to sell their vehicle.  For Europe, the largest number of car sales by far occurs in Germany.  When you have a company with a manufacturing plant in Germany employing a large number of German people, it's much more difficult to enact laws which favor native German manufacturers over Tesla.  All of the German car companies are competing with Tesla for future EV dominance.

[Morris Minor]

I think it's very beneficial for a car company to be embedded within the fabric of the economy of where they plan to sell their vehicle.  For Europe, the largest number of car sales by far occurs in Germany.  When you have a company with a manufacturing plant in Germany employing a large number of German people, it's much more difficult to enact laws which favor native German manufacturers over Tesla.  All of the German car companies are competing with Tesla for future EV dominance.

All good points. But the factory is already behind schedule - being done in, ironically enough, by environmental objections. It is not a business-friendly area, to say the least.

[r0tor]

Maybe you can be "planet friendly" instead of "business friendly" and if your country has their shit together, you can prosper.

[Morris Minor]

Maybe you can be "planet friendly" instead of "business friendly" and if your country has their shit together, you can prosper.

"instead of" hmm.

[r0tor]

So much craziness...

https://youtu.be/9ARiJSGvfww

[CaminoRacer]

https://youtu.be/YzSHOw-ilMA

[MrH]

So much craziness...

https://youtu.be/9ARiJSGvfww

Craziness is one way to describe it...

[GoCougs]

Craziness is one way to describe it...

Reckless.

[r0tor]

I think FSD did a better job then most drivers would... Especially if they were not familiar with the area