Tesla

[GoCougs]

Jesus Christ.

That's a plasma bomb waiting to go off.

For those not generally in the know, arc flash is a serious hazard of high power electrical equipment. In short, if something goes wrong (like a short circuit) such as dropping a wrench across live terminals or using the incorrect voltmeter, the excess current due to the short circuit vaporizes the conductor into plasma and it's literally like standing on the sun for some milliseconds. Thing is, if unprotected, it seldom kills instantly, but it always kills eventually (but takes days or weeks). Turns out you can live quite a while with your guts, eyes and lungs burned out and your privates burned off. Oh, and you're usually conscious during those days or weeks.

In the typical industrial setting, being anywhere near the plugging/unplugging of a 400V/400A service such as that of a Tesla Supercharger, would absolutely require some moderate or serious measure of arc flash protection kit. I'm sure the powers that be have done their homework and design such that that is not required for Tesla Supercharging, but Jesus, I can't exactly image what they've done, other than a ginormous amount of smarts and redundancy that all but ensures a short circuit in the connector, car or cable does not result in an arc flash event.

[giant_mtb]

Lots of copper to be mined for a nationwide charging infrastructure for those cables. Bet nobody thinks about that or the fossil-fueled power plants their earth-saving EV power needs come from.

[GoCougs]

Lots of copper to be mined for a nationwide charging infrastructure for those cables. Bet nobody thinks about that or the fossil-fueled power plants their earth-saving EV power needs come from.

The worst of it is the ginormous increase in demand for variables elements (not only for conductors but electronics and batteries - most of which is mined outside the US) will simply be a replay of the current sociopolitical hot boi topic that is oil, but it'll be Africa and South America, and the US ain't got much of a hold in either place.

[Morris Minor]

I worked at a place that made mega-sized industrial drives, as used in steel production (dump a rail hopper of pig iron in at one end, & rolled steel to customer's spec spits out  a mile away at the opposite end of the building.) One morning I was out on the floor and there was the ear-splitting crack followed by lots of yelling. One of the workers had shorted a massive capacitor with a wrench or something. Blinding flash & he was DRT. There was a big shitstorm over that: cops, ambulances, OSHA, State DoL, news crews. Some checklist item had been bypassed.

[GoCougs]

What's DRT?

[Morris Minor]

Dead Right There.

[Laconian]

Yeah, we're a little scared about that with our boat electronics. Short circuiting four batteries yoked together, that's like 500A of pain if something were to go wrong.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Welding is fun

[Laconian]

The worst of it is the ginormous increase in demand for variables elements (not only for conductors but electronics and batteries - most of which is mined outside the US) will simply be a replay of the current sociopolitical hot boi topic that is oil, but it'll be Africa and South America, and the US ain't got much of a hold in either place.

This sounds like a knock against car dependence in general, EV or ICE. Thousands of pounds of material to produce, hundreds of megawatt hours spent building it and moving it around. Driving less, or not driving at all, is the answer.

[giant_mtb]

Driving less, or not driving at all, is the answer.

Feel free to hand in or burn your Car Enthusiast Membership Card at any time.

[Laconian]

Feel free to hand in or burn your Car Enthusiast Membership Card at any time.

Hey, you threw the "think of the waste" card.

[giant_mtb]

Hey, you threw the "think of the waste" card.

Touche. 

[GoCougs]

Dead Right There.

Jesus. At least he went quick. Sometimes the vaporization of the metal (which is in effect an explosion, as the sun-heat expands the immediate air) will launch stuff at the victim, such as a panel door or other devices near the vaporization (panel components such as breakers or the like). If in a small room, the heat and fumes will get a person right quick too.

[GoCougs]

Yeah, we're a little scared about that with our boat electronics. Short circuiting four batteries yoked together, that's like 500A of pain if something were to go wrong.

There must be switch gear and design methods to greatly reduce the risk, no?

The industrial accidents are typically many thousands of amps (sometimes tens of thousands), but 500A going somewhere it shouldn't can also cause injury and damage (and fire on a boat!).

[Laconian]

There must be switch gear and design methods to greatly reduce the risk, no?

The industrial accidents are typically many thousands of amps (sometimes tens of thousands), but 500A going somewhere it shouldn't can also cause injury and damage (and fire on a boat!).

I'm talking about working on the electrical system itself. The OEM design overloads some common battery posts and there is no busbar to sort it all out. When working on the batteries, the thick gauge cables have a mind of their own when you take your hands off them. Nerve wracking. Kind of want to DIY the lithium install, but tales of the limitless current ready to explode out of zero resistance lithium batteries has us spooked.

[AutobahnSHO]

We used to fool around with 400v and 720v stuff at work all the time    

Lots of safeguards on Army stuff that's meant to be taken apart by Soldiers though... 

[GoCougs]

This sounds like a knock against car dependence in general, EV or ICE. Thousands of pounds of material to produce, hundreds of megawatt hours spent building it and moving it around. Driving less, or not driving at all, is the answer.

Thing is though most of what we know as the modern world is due in prominent part to the mobility of the workforce, and just living a normal life in the USA.

A good happy medium to me is on the demand side - WtP limiting our buying to ICE-powered compact vehicles, esp. pickup trucks.

[AutobahnSHO]

Thing is though most of what we know as the modern world is due in prominent part to the mobility of the workforce, and just living a normal life in the USA.

A good happy medium to me is on the demand side - WtP limiting our buying to ICE-powered compact vehicles, esp. pickup trucks.

We could probably cut our gas consumption 2/3 by driving efficient small cars for commuting, then renting bigger vehicles as needed.

of course it would become a status symbol to drive a big vehicle all the time- which would lead us right back to where we are now. oh wait.....      

I laugh as I drive the Miata hard from lights and F250s race to keep up or try to beat me. They think they "won" when I settle at my cruise control speed and they go past. I'm still getting 26mpg at the worst LOL!

[r0tor]

Yeah, we're a little scared about that with our boat electronics. Short circuiting four batteries yoked together, that's like 500A of pain if something were to go wrong.

Fear not, you would never feel it

[r0tor]

For those not generally in the know, arc flash is a serious hazard of high power electrical equipment. In short, if something goes wrong (like a short circuit) such as dropping a wrench across live terminals or using the incorrect voltmeter, the excess current due to the short circuit vaporizes the conductor into plasma and it's literally like standing on the sun for some milliseconds. Thing is, if unprotected, it seldom kills instantly, but it always kills eventually (but takes days or weeks). Turns out you can live quite a while with your guts, eyes and lungs burned out and your privates burned off. Oh, and you're usually conscious during those days or weeks.

In the typical industrial setting, being anywhere near the plugging/unplugging of a 400V/400A service such as that of a Tesla Supercharger, would absolutely require some moderate or serious measure of arc flash protection kit. I'm sure the powers that be have done their homework and design such that that is not required for Tesla Supercharging, but Jesus, I can't exactly image what they've done, other than a ginormous amount of smarts and redundancy that all but ensures a short circuit in the connector, car or cable does not result in an arc flash event.

Needing a 40 cal "bomb suit" is not typical in industry.  The arc flash potential is heavily determined by switchgear design and protection systems.

Most companies that are worth working at mitigate arc flash potentials far below the bomb suit.

[GoCougs]

We could probably cut our gas consumption 2/3 by driving efficient small cars for commuting, then renting bigger vehicles as needed.

of course it would become a status symbol to drive a big vehicle all the time- which would lead us right back to where we are now. oh wait.....      

I laugh as I drive the Miata hard from lights and F250s race to keep up or try to beat me. They think they "won" when I settle at my cruise control speed and they go past. I'm still getting 26mpg at the worst LOL!

In the new car, I only get about 10-20% the attention I did in the G. Still, pickup trucks have this deep insecure need to prove how slow and ponderous their vehicles are. There are some deep psychological problems with that customer base - abysmal MPG (and $1,000+/mo payments, and all the rest of it) is only but a part of it all.

[giant_mtb]

In the new car, I only get about 10-20% the attention I did in the G. Still, pickup trucks have this deep insecure need to prove how slow and ponderous their vehicles are. There are some deep psychological problems with that customer base - abysmal MPG (and $1,000+/mo payments, and all the rest of it) is only but a part of it all.

I drive my truck like a gramma. I haven't even gone past like half throttle on the new Taco.

[GoCougs]

Needing a 40 cal "bomb suit" is not typical in industry.  The arc flash potential is heavily determined by switchgear design and protection systems.

Most companies that are worth working at mitigate arc flash potentials far below the bomb suit.

Actually, there are multiple levels of arc flash PPE. I chose that image because he's just a handsome devil in there:



The top kit is typical in industries that have that level of power, and kit in general is common. People need to periodically interface to the equipment, and there is no getting around it. Mitigations via design and component selection help, but you'll always need the correct PPE

[GoCougs]

I drive my truck like a gramma. I haven't even gone past like half throttle on the new Taco.

I meant full-size trucks of course , extra points for diesel, and double for rimz/tirz/lifz/exhautz.

I see a lot of it now from newer 4Runners actually, esp. kitted out as (poser TBH) overland vehicles. The air cleaner snorkle is a sure sign that road rage is lumbering my way.

[Soup DeVille]

Actually, there are multiple levels of arc flash PPE. I chose that image because he's just a handsome devil in there:



The top kit is typical in industries that have that level of power, and kit in general is common. People need to periodically interface to the equipment, and there is no getting around it. Mitigations via design and component selection help, but you'll always need the correct PPE

When did they remove "cotton underwear?" All my stickers list it as required PPE.


As for the 800v chargers; I'm sure there are robust protections, but even so- its a flexible cable, in the weather, that's being used by the general public (and we all know that means the worst of the general public will set the standards).

I just worry, as these age, the combined effects of UV damage, mechanical wear, and stupidity will eventually show themselves.

[r0tor]

Actually, there are multiple levels of arc flash PPE. I chose that image because he's just a handsome devil in there:



The top kit is typical in industries that have that level of power, and kit in general is common. People need to periodically interface to the equipment, and there is no getting around it. Mitigations via design and component selection help, but you'll always need the correct PPE

I assume you then also know the approach boundary of where that chart is actually applicable to - many times of which in modern switchgear the boundary is inside the switchgear itself

[GoCougs]

I assume you then also know the approach boundary of where that chart is actually applicable to - many times of which in modern switchgear the boundary is inside the switchgear itself

So this is a hill I think even you would have not chosen. When working around electrical thingies, there are litany of laws, rules, regs and PPE, and there is an near-finite legacy of injury and death that made it to so.

[r0tor]

Yea, I didn't think so

[GoCougs]

Yea, I didn't think so

You're just throwing out terms and buzz words, hoping no one knows anything, hoping to avoid an L.

I have to take the training fairly often due to the disparate clients I work at. I don't (ever) service or even touch that stuff (480 VAC/20A max for me, roughly speaking) but required to go through the motions. IOW, good luck with your throwing.

[r0tor]

I get to review arc flash and coordination studies from 500kv to 480v and come up with methods to mitigate problems... Good luck as well