Tesla

[MrH]

IMO the velocitation is just as big a hazard. The excellent NVH of EVs makes them drive faster than they feel.

It really says something that Teslas are outdoing RAM and Nissan, which I assumed were the worst drivers on Earth.

The idea that "Autopilot" & "Full Self Driving" is safer than humans, and yet, Tesla is the most crashed OEM.  It doesn't work and never will.  It's all a fraudulent stock pump and always has been.

[Morris Minor]

The idea that "Autopilot" & "Full Self Driving" is safer than humans, and yet, Tesla is the most crashed OEM.  It doesn't work and never will.  It's all a fraudulent stock pump and always has been.

It would be good to know how the accident rates break down between autopilot-engaged, FSD-engaged, & neither of above-engaged.

Interestingly I noticed  recently that my neighbor was driving a new Aviator, "What's up Billy, where's your RAM?"
"Oh I totalled it, ran off the road avoiding a deer."

(haha says he, whose Mazda [#5 on list] is still in the body shop.)

[MrH]

It would be good to know how the accident rates break down between autopilot-engaged, FSD-engaged, & neither of above-engaged.

Interestingly I noticed  recently that my neighbor was driving a new Aviator, "What's up Billy, where's your RAM?"
"Oh I totalled it, ran off the road avoiding a deer."

(haha says he, whose Mazda [#5 on list] is still in the body shop.)

That would require Tesla to actually release the data. Instead, we're told "just trust me bro".

[MrH]

Slowly, the media is waking up. NHTSA continues their reign as possibly the most corrupt and incompetent arm of the federal government, which is a very high bar to clear.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/

[Laconian]

Whompy Wheels have entered the public consciousness. Big Reuters expose backed by internal comms.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/

[MrH]

Just further reinforces the warranty reserve accounting fraud that's been pointed out for ages. Much of the suspension repairs were denied. Much of those that were fixed were done as "goodwill" and not as warranty work. By classifying it as good will and not warranty, they under reserved financially.

This was done on purpose, as goodwill expenses hit below the line. Warranty reserves impact gross margin. Guess whose stock options were dependent on hitting gross margin metrics?

[GoCougs]

Slowly, the media is waking up. NHTSA continues their reign as possibly the most corrupt and incompetent arm of the federal government, which is a very high bar to clear.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/

Musk also ran the tables on the SEC - corrupt and as inefficient as it gets.

WtP have freely given Musk, a disordered, non-accountable, non-business non-engineer, virtually infinite power over widespread business and engineering decision. All of his Funny Business couldn't have turned out any other way.

We'll see how much the media is waking up. Musk Inertia will not go quietly into the night.

[Submariner2]

I just started a new thread for this topic: https://www.carspin.club/index.php/topic,36833.msg2569189.html#new

RAM drivers are indeed the worst. "Across 30 car brands analyzed, Ram has the worst drivers. Nationally, Ram drivers had 32.90 driving incidents (accidents, DUIs, speeding and citations) per 1,000 drivers from Nov. 14, 2022, through Nov. 14, 2023. Tesla (31.13) and Subaru (30.09) were the only other brands whose drivers had incident rates above 30.00."

I absolutely believe that for RAM and Subaru.  I cannot say that I have had many bad encounters with Tesla drivers, but there are probably fewer Tesla's on the road which likely accounts for the discrepancy.

But man...I *hate* RAM drivers.

[565]

Well, just did the holiday Tesla update with the autopilot recall updates.  I was concerned that all the new nags would make the system worse. Previously the autopilot system was light years head of the level 2 system in the BMW and my dad's Tundra.  Mostly I wanted the update to get the updated parking vision system with the holiday update.

Well for my uses the autopilot is now vastly better.  The achilles heel of the old system was that it constantly wanted steering wheel torque inputs and would nag if it didn't.  Now with the new update I made it through my 1 hr commute without any nags with my hand just resting on the wheel naturally. The system responds to far smaller torque inputs and with the awareness camera, has longer intervals before requesting them. 

The OTA updates on the Tesla have dramatically improved function over the 1 year I've owned it (improved sentry mode, more ap controls, parking vision, speed camera warnings on the nav, etc etc). The BMW and Cadillac very occasionally get OTA updates too but bascially don't change anything.

[Laconian]

Consumer Reports says that you can block the camera entirely and it won't alert at all.

[565]

Consumer Reports says that you can block the camera entirely and it won't alert at all.

If you block the camera then the AP system will nag you nearly constantly for torque inputs.

In the BMW there is an infrared awareness camera that is only active when you are below 40mph on limited access highway and you dont have to hold the steering wheel at all.  Also in the BMW as long as you are touching the steering wheel the system is happy to chug along at a speed up to 110mph with you not looking at the road at all.  Also the system doesn't slow for corners if you have the system set too fast, it will just YOLO it and let the car run wide into another lane.

The Toyota doesnt have any in cabin camera at all, and fails to stay in lane beyond the slightest of curves, and constanty loses the lane markings.

[Laconian]

Does AP (not FSD) slow down preemptively for curves? I've read a lot of claims that Tesla's system rely on visual inputs instead of mapping data, so I assumed that it lacks the ability to anticipate.

[565]

Does AP (not FSD) slow down preemptively for curves? I've read a lot of claims that Tesla's system rely on visual inputs instead of mapping data, so I assumed that it lacks the ability to anticipate.

No it will slow for curves preemptively. Not sure if it is doing it based on vision ahead or map data but it will slow the car to make the turn.

The AP visualization on the screen does a good job displaying what the car sees and it's impressive.  It shows the curve of the road ahead it sees, it shows not just the cars it can see but also their exact positions in their lanes. When cars cross into your lane, the system depicts their actions in real time. The car the system is basing decision off of is highlighted in a darker grey. It could be the car ahead of you, but it could also be the car that it anticipates will cut into your lane based on its behavior, much like a human anticipates when someone is itching to cut into your lane. So when a car does cut into your lane, the AP system is already slowing down.

The BMW has a very crude graphic that shows the road as straight, the car in front of you and the cars next to you depicted as perfectly centered in their lanes.  Any lane changes are a set animation. It doesn't really anticipate anything and is far more reactive. If a car cuts in front of you, the system doesn't really react until the car is completely in your lane, and then the car slams on brakes far too late and far too hard. I'm then looking in the rearview to see who's gonna rear end me.

Before I got the Tesla I thought the name Autopilot was gimicky and that many automakers had level 2 driver assists. We had the BMW for about 1 full year before we got the Tesla.  After using the AP system you really get the sense for how superior the Tesla system is. It all technically does the same stuff on paper, but the implementation and confidence makes the difference. The implementation on the BMW is poor enough that I mostly activate it because I paid for the option, but honestly I don't feel more relaxed using it than just driving myself. I have to intervene constantly during my commute. The system is far to aggressive with the throttle and brakes (probably tuned for a X3 30i and not the X3m), makes sweeping curves in this unsettling stepwise fashion, and doesn't anticipate anything in traffic. The AP system I use for probably 90% of my 50 mile in each direction commute on I95.

[Morris Minor]

I'm 90% sure that if my CX-5 had something like Autopilot it would have not let me smash into that poor guy's almost-new Volvo: collision course with incoming object two points on the starboard bow: drop anchors.

[Laconian]

That sounds nice. The Kia EV6 handles curves but only on major mapped highways. While on a highway it flips on a mode called "HDA" which features more tenacious LKA, better rendering of neighboring cars, automatic speed limit adjustment, etc. When you're on regular roads you get the much less assertive "autosteer".

I think I would have a different opinion about Autopilot if it used radar sensors. Being vision-based it is prone to phantom braking in rain and fog. I live in an area with both of these things, and there are a lot of Teslas on the road too, so...

[Laconian]

I'm 90% sure that if my CX-5 had something like Autopilot it would have not let me smash into that poor guy's almost-new Volvo: collision course with incoming object two points on the starboard bow: drop anchors.

How long was it in front of you for? Vision-based autobraking is slower since it needs to analyze several frames of historical video data to compute object information.

[r0tor]

AI explanation of how Full Self Driving works

You cannot view this attachment.

[MrH]

https://defector.com/youre-supposed-to-be-glad-your-tesla-is-a-brittle-heap-of-junk

Great article that summarizes the culture of Tesla better than I ever could.

[Morris Minor]

Whompy Wheels have entered the public consciousness. Big Reuters expose backed by internal comms.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/

Tesla's calling Reuters out for bullshit.

https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/1740097070789198241

Reuters published an article that leads with a wildly misleading headline and is riddled with incomplete and demonstrably incorrect information.

This latest piece vaguely and nonsensically suggests there are thousands upon thousands of disgruntled Tesla customers. It's nonsensical because it's nonfactual—the reality is Tesla's customer retention is among the best and highest in the industry.

Misleading headline:
"Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective."

Reality (buried in the article):
Tesla paid for most of the 120,000 vehicle repairs under warranty.

Manufactured story:
The customer photo represents not a failed component, but instead a post crash component that was damaged in the course of reducing the adverse effects of a collision. The customer was informed that Tesla was able to review the telemetry and understood there was a crash that resulted in this repair not being covered by warranty.
Most, if not all, manufacturer warranties exclude damages caused by a crash because that is the point of insurance coverage.

Helpful context:
Tesla has the most advanced vehicle telemetry system that can identify emerging issues, determine scope, and allow for faster vehicle and service improvements than has ever been seen in the auto industry. We take action as soon as we see a problem, something that should be celebrated as best-in-class, and is often cited by our regulators as a major safety advantage.

False accusation:
The author has conflated a noise-related (non-safety) issue with a range of unrelated and disconnected service actions. Contrary to the article's statements based on erroneous data, Tesla is truthful and transparent with our safety regulators around the globe and any insinuation otherwise is plain wrong.

Tesla Service Principles:
a.
Our service technicians and advisors diagnose, maintain and fix our customers' cars efficiently and are not incentivized to profit off customers' repair needs.

b.
Tesla provides our service employees with excellent compensation and benefits packages. They don't work off of commission like at other dealers who are incentivized to upsell or overcharge their customers.

c.
The best service is no service. When service must be done, we fix 90%+ problems without even needing the customer present – either through over-the-air updates or with mobile service at a customer's house or workplace.
To see Tesla's approach in action, one can refer to this maintenance study from earlier this year, "Tesla was named the cheapest luxury car brand to maintain.." → https://autos.yahoo.com/tesla-named-cheapest-luxury-car-110000613.html?guccounter=2#:~:text=Tesla's%20average%20maintenance%20cost%20was,the%20Model%203%20in%20fourth

This cherry-picking approach to journalism results in missing the truth, which is a pattern in many of the negative articles about Tesla.

Using one customer's one-sided version of events as the universal experience of all customers paints a false and misleading picture of Tesla. In reality, for every upset customer, there are hundreds more who are thrilled with their Tesla and eager to repeat their business. The numbers don't lie in terms of repeat sales and customer satisfaction.

We strive to make every customer a lifelong member of the Tesla family.

While others may have their own agendas, our principles have been the same since the beginning: to make the safest cars in the world, which are easiest to maintain, while accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy.

[giant_mtb]

Do Teslas know when ball joints or CV shafts or brakes are dead? Like, the important things?

[MrH]

So they admitted to replacing 120,000 suspensions after failure.  And that they paid for "most of them".

- How were these repairs classified in their ERP system?  As warranty expense, or as goodwill to the customer.  Very important distinction, and the answer is, we know they fraudulently classified much of this goodwill, because it's below the line and doesn't impact gross margin.  It should have been all warranty repair.

- How did 120,000 suspensions get fixed without a recall?  How do they know they managed to capture all of the defects?  How do they know it isn't 500,000 vehicles?  They're just going to wait until it breaks, and then fix?  How many accidents have happened where the Tesla suddenly veers off the road?

This is a total failure and shows a lack of any sort of meaningful quality system.  When a defect happens, especially a safety critical one, you need to quickly contain as fast as possible.  There is zero attempt to contain the issue at all.  Just repair after it happens.  There are accidents with people dying, the wheel totally disconnected from the vehicle, but all wheel lugs still present.

[CaminoRacer]

Yeah I don't think that's a great response from Tesla. Trying to go with the "fake news" rebuttal and cry foul to hope people brush it off.

[r0tor]

Everyone would benefit if there was a meaningful failure rate that forced recalls... Too many times OEMs just ignore issues

[Laconian]

Does Tesla have a leg to stand on when it complains about how it's framed by the press? They proudly lack a PR staff and don't read emails sent to press@tesla.com. Well, PR people are the folks who work with the media to get the facts right before stories hit the presses.

In any event the rebuttal was heavy on the huffing and puffing and pretty light on the refutations.

[CaminoRacer]

Everyone would benefit if there was a meaningful failure rate that forced recalls... Too many times OEMs just ignore issues

Ah, the old "everyone does it" excuse for a clear problem at Tesla.

[Laconian]

Ah, the old "everyone does it" excuse for a clear problem at Tesla.

All OEMs Matter

[r0tor]

Ah, the old "everyone does it" excuse for a clear problem at Tesla.

Why should they be any different?

[CaminoRacer]

Why should they be any different?

It's not relevant. Is Tesla has a problem, Tesla should fix it.

[Laconian]

https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/5/21502379/tesla-modely-roof-flies-off-convertible-quality-issue

Model Y now comes in a targa top trim

[AutobahnSHO]

https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/5/21502379/tesla-modely-roof-flies-off-convertible-quality-issue

Model Y now comes in a targa top trim