Tesla

[Char]

The market is betting on Tesla. Sure it's being shorted  - massive negative P/E ... https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/key-statistics?p=TSLA

But you are making the mistake of comparing Teslas to IC cars. Tesla's merit is that it has the early jump on a new market - one that will largely be enforced for it by government regulation.

Possible - but what does that have to do with the here and now? The Chevy Volt is proof automakers could make a viable electric car if they want to/if the demand is there. Tesla's early start is meaningless because they simply don't have the resources to compete with real automakers.

Sure a Chevy will travel further on a tank of gas and be cheaper and more reliable (well, maybe not reliable)  but that's only  looking at its attributes as a transportation device. Not as a technology that will become largely illegal in the next 40 years.

So objectively you agree every car is better than this one. I'm not looking at 40 years from now, because it's possible we'll find another/better storage medium and transportation device.

And Teslas are cool;

No, they aren't.

they have a huge following out of all proportion to their market share - that is a MASSIVE advantage.

No, it isn't.

You mustn't focus on the rational here.

Yes, I should. Someone should.

Ten years ago it was far more rational to buy a flip phone over the iPhone. But the iPhone was a cool icon, an object of desire. That led it to crush the opposition. So squabbling over the Model 3's range and lack of dashboard is irrelevant. It's its qualities as a cool object of desire that will lead it to dominance. Once people start seeing them on the roads, they will sell themselves.

That's not why the Iphone dominated. It was arguably a better tool. There were many phones that could do what the Iphone did, but the Iphone objectively was better than most, with a very good UI.

The Model 3 isn't any of those things. By your own admission it does nothing better, and it's interface (we've seen centralized dashboards before, and always hated them) requires the owner to adapt to the car, and not the other way around. The car is a decent attempt and is about as good as could be expected for a novelty vehicle.

People who care nothing about cars follow and recognize Teslas.

And Ferrari's and BMW's and any other status symbol.

My wife, who cares nothing about mobile phones, had an Android phone - worked great. All her friends had iPhones. She came one night & said she wanted an iPhone. Got online the next day and ordered a big expensive pink iPhone.

Tesla is a game changer. Like it or not.

It's not - it's a novelty product that sells on being a status symbol and nothing more.

[Cookie Monster]

Are you misreading what I'm saying on purpose? I have a bone to pick with the ill-thought out interior, and the dubiousness of Tesla's build quality and ability to scale up quickly and produce a competent product on the level of GM et al.


But the car itself, the range and performance numbers is nothing to sneeze at (at least on paper).

Sorry, hard to read anything with all the hate in here. You were ragging on the interior so hard (without having any first hand experience with it) that I figured you wrote the whole car off.

[Char]

What do you mean there's no progression?  Electric cars have been shit for range until recently.  Back when the Nissan Leaf EV came out it could go, what, 120 miles on a charge?  How is 300 miles not progress?

Bigger batteries  = longer range. Nothing has changed.

[Char]

You are tho

I'm not.

[2o6]

Back when the Nissan Leaf EV came out it could go, what, 120 miles on a charge?

83 miles. And it gets significantly worse with battery age, heat, or cold. There was a big class-action lawsuit, IIRC that Leafs were basically unusable in hot climates (some were reporting as low as 46 miles of range)

[2o6]

Bigger batteries  = longer range. Nothing has changed.

Packaging the battery, charging the battery, how power dense the battery is for its size has made great strides in the past decade.

[2o6]

Sorry, hard to read anything with all the hate in here. You were ragging on the interior so hard (without having any first hand experience with it) that I figured you wrote the whole car off.

Oh come on, some things you can spot from a mile away as being bad design, but I'm not gonna beat this dead horse.

[Char]

Packaging the battery, charging the battery, how power dense the battery is for its size has made great strides in the past decade.

Not as much as you want to believe - it's still a horrible storage medium.

[2o6]

Not as much as you want to believe - it's still a horrible storage medium.

That says nothing about the fact it's made great strides in the past decade

[Cookie Monster]

Oh come on, some things you can spot from a mile away as being bad design, but I'm not gonna beat this dead horse.

That's not what the reviews are saying.


If this car didn't look so weird to me in person I think I'd like it.

[Char]

That says nothing about the fact it's made great strides in the past decade

So have I, so have all cars. What the fuck about it?

Call me when it's a viable product.

[2o6]

That's not what the reviews are saying.


If this car didn't look so weird to me in person I think I'd like it.

Most reviews are going to be positive of this thing - and once again - if any other automaker tried this y'all would drag them across the pavement.

[GoCougs]

On the eve of Tesla's watershed moment and Tesla is down some 10% the last month while most other tech/hype stocks are still flying high (the market is anticipating another hefty loss today).

I don't think the analogy to the iPhone quite holds in that the iPhone was a viable business venture from Day One, and 10 years on Apple is the most valuable (non-SEO) corporation in the world with ~$250B of cash on hand. Further, there was material, near-infinite advantage to the iPhone over the competition upon debut - there is currently no such material advantage to an EV - much more expensive, less range, still pollutes o' plenty and PITA to "fill up." In short, yes, there was never-before-seen hype with the iPhone, but the product backed it up.

Tesla is a "game changer" only with the help with significant fascist intervention (which we're sorta seeing in Yurrup, with their supposed outlawing of ICE vehicles in a few decades' time) or a TBD revolution in energy storage.

[Soup DeVille]

Dang this thread is weird. Even you're supporting this car now.

Kevin's issues were with some questionable design decisions. I don't think he ever said that electric cars were stupid; at least not to the degree Char is.

[Char]

Kevin's issues were with some questionable design decisions. I don't think he ever said that electric cars were stupid; at least not to the degree Char is.

I didn't say elective vehicles were stupid.

[12,000 RPM]

Am I fucking wrong?

Yes, absolutely.

You claim people who don't care about cars follow/buy Tesla/BMW/Ferrari. Which are the most profitable car companies at the moment?

I don't think the fundamental idea of the car is bad; it's Tesla's manufacturing and design choices. But EVs def have a future

[AutobahnSHO]

So have I, so have all cars. What the fuck about it?

Call me when it's a viable product.

It's a viable product when people buy it. That's it. Doesn't matter whether you like it or need it or hate it. The market decides viable.

Your iPhone comparison is flawed- for years it was available only on AT&T which was demonstrably worse than Verizon at the time. People still switched over to a worse network for a fancy phone. So they were really downgrading one capability for a different one (phone calls vs. better UI).

EVs are the same- right now they don't make sense for all situations. I couldn't drive one cross country like an ICE car. But time will tell, technologies change, market (and government regulation) will decide where things go.

[MX793]

Yes, absolutely.

You claim people who don't care about cars follow/buy Tesla/BMW/Ferrari. Which are the most profitable car companies at the moment?

I don't think the fundamental idea of the car is bad; it's Tesla's manufacturing and design choices. But EVs def have a future

Tesla profitable?  Tesla has yet to turn a profit in 14 years, save for a very small profit in one quarter of last year (which was more the result of subsidies and selling green credits than actual product sales).  They aren't forecasted to be profitable until sometime beyond 2018.

[Char]

It's a viable product when people buy it. That's it. Doesn't matter whether you like it or need it or hate it. The market decides viable.

Your iPhone comparison is flawed- for years it was available only on AT&T which was demonstrably worse than Verizon at the time. People still switched over to a worse network for a fancy phone. So they were really downgrading one capability for a different one (phone calls vs. better UI).

But we aren't talking about the service provider, we are specifically talking about the hardware - so I'm objectively correct.

EVs are the same- right now they don't make sense for all situations. I couldn't drive one cross country like an ICE car. But time will tell, technologies change, market (and government regulation) will decide where things go.

EV's don't make sense for ANYONE right now - they do nothing better than their gas counterparts.

[AutobahnSHO]

EV's don't make sense for ANYONE right now - they do nothing better than their gas counterparts.

Absolutely incorrect, I could save a half hour per month if I had one. I rarely go more than 300miles in 2 weeks, could skip fillups twice a month.

[Cookie Monster]

But we aren't talking about the service provider, we are specifically talking about the hardware - so I'm objectively correct.
EV's don't make sense for ANYONE right now - they do nothing better than their gas counterparts.

Quieter, less maintenance, charging from home, HOV lane usage, packaging, etc?

[Char]

Absolutely incorrect, I could save a half hour per month if I had one. I rarely go more than 300miles in 2 weeks, could skip fillups twice a month.

Over a cheaper gas car? No need to rent a car?
No. You absolutely wouldn't.

Quieter, less maintenance, charging from home, HOV lane usage, packaging, etc?

Ok, so you don't have to change oil and gas up -Hybrids can use HOV lanes, and a Civic and Accord are similar in size. So what advantages?

[Morris Minor]

But we aren't talking about the service provider, we are specifically talking about the hardware - so I'm objectively correct.
EV's don't make sense for ANYONE right now - they do nothing better than their gas counterparts.

Being worse than their gas counterparts does not deter their fan base. Also, remember Amazon never turned a profit for years and years. Now they are so big & profitable they have achieved evil status.
I'm not saying Tesla will not crash and burn. I'm saying that to judge their cars as merely rationally-bought transportation bought with the cold hard eyes of a cost accountant is way too narrow.

[Char]

Being worse than their gas counterparts does not deter their fan base. Also, remember Amazon never turned a profit for years and years. Now they are so big & profitable they have achieved evil status.
I'm not saying Tesla will not crash and burn. I'm saying that to judge their cars as merely rationally-bought transportation bought with the cold hard eyes of a cost accountant is way too narrow.

I'm not speaking on hypotheticals. Can you not make a point and speak on the objective merits? If you can't, I think we can all agree I'm correct and you live in a fucking pipe dream.

[Tave]

Char you were doing really well at engaging others in a manner that didn't make us want to spit in your face. Something happen lifewise? Wanna make a thread about it in place of these profanity-laced, poorly-written tirades?

[giant_mtb]

For many, a couple hundred miles of range is plenty for daily life.  I don't think we'll see mass EV use until the range gets slightly better, charging infrastructure increases dramatically across the country, and charge times go wayyyy down.  Until it takes maybe 30 minutes or less to get 2-300 miles of range pumped into a battery, I don't see ICEs going away soon.  There's just too much convenience in filling the gas tank back up and hitting the road for another 3-500+ miles (depending on the vehicle).  I mean, shit, you can get a big tank on an Ecoboost F150 and go 700 miles on one fillup.  That's insane.

The thing about charging infrastructure...it's kind of a chicken before the egg situation. There has to be demand for it, which means people need to buy EVs, but people don't wanna buy EVs if the proper infrastructure isn't already in place...ah!

[Char]

For many, a couple hundred miles of range is plenty for daily life.  I don't think we'll see mass EV use until the range gets slightly better, charging infrastructure increases dramatically across the country, and charge times go wayyyy down.  Until it takes maybe 30 minutes or less to get 2-300 miles of range pumped into a battery, I don't see ICEs going away soon.  There's just too much convenience in filling the gas tank back up and hitting the road for another 3-500+ miles (depending on the vehicle).  I mean, shit, you can get a big tank on an Ecoboost F150 and go 700 miles on one fillup.  That's insane.

The thing about charging infrastructure...it's kind of a chicken before the egg situation. There has to be demand for it, which means people need to buy EVs, but people don't wanna buy EVs if the proper infrastructure isn't already in place...ah!

No one is arguing about that though (at least I'm not) I'm arguing about the tangible merits of this vehicle RIGHT NOW, not what it could be in 5-10 years, not what it represents, not how it impresses your friends. Tell me what it does NOW to deserve the hype.

I've been digging at this car for how many pages so far, and you have yet to come up with one reason - all that tells me is this car isn't ready for prime time. You shouldn't be giving it a free pass for existing, save the praise for when it actually accomplishes something.

[CaminoRacer]

The hype is because it's getting better and closer to a feasible car for everyone. The Teslas and Bolt are actual usable cars.

[giant_mtb]

No one is arguing about that though (at least I'm not) I'm arguing about the tangible merits of this vehicle RIGHT NOW, not what it could be in 5-10 years, not what it represents, not how it impresses your friends. Tell me what it does NOW to deserve the hype.

I've been digging at this car for how many pages so far, and you have yet to come up with one reason - all that tells me is this car isn't ready for prime time. You shouldn't be giving it a free pass for existing, save the praise for when it actually accomplishes something.

Whoahhhh.  The only compliment I've given the thing is its range. Chill.

And considering range is one of the biggest hurdles for EVs...it's progress.

[AutobahnSHO]

The thing about charging infrastructure...it's kind of a chicken before the egg situation. There has to be demand for it, which means people need to buy EVs, but people don't wanna buy EVs if the proper infrastructure isn't already in place...ah!

True.

There is a Tesla charging station at the local mall/movie theater. There is a station at the Hampton Inn in Evanston, WY. That one is weird- noway will the cowboys there be buying the cars. It's 100% aimed at people traveling I-80 across the country. It will take a while for that to see much use, methinks.

Right where that pickup in the patch of dirt is. Zoom out to get a sense of space. The next town that has a McDonald's is 57miles southwest or 88miles east or 189miles north or who knows how far south????...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Evanston,+WY+82930/@41.2633601,-110.9854647,144m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x875177aa02934793:0x51a37d5df4d67ad0!8m2!3d41.2682794!4d-110.9632373?hl=en