Tesla

Started by SJ_GTI, February 23, 2017, 07:11:02 AM

Morris Minor

I would guess Hyundai/Kia would be the most likely to join Ford. GM much less so.

Stellantis - nobody cares.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

Laconian

I rode in a friend's Model Y for the first time a couple days ago. The infotainment was slick and had a high framerate, and of course the car accelerated very impressively, but the suspension was rock hard. Plastics looked fine but if you flick them you definitely get a hollow/cheap vibe. The cost cutting is very palpable. I don't think they should continue down this path.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Morris Minor

Quote from: Laconian on May 29, 2023, 08:28:11 PMI rode in a friend's Model Y for the first time a couple days ago. The infotainment was slick and had a high framerate, and of course the car accelerated very impressively, but the suspension was rock hard. Plastics looked fine but if you flick them you definitely get a hollow/cheap vibe. The cost cutting is very palpable. I don't think they should continue down this path.
Someone here is considering getting a Y and asked on FB for neighborhood Tesla owners' opinions. What you said above pretty much ties in with the responses, "They're not luxury cars; don't expect a BMW/Audi interior."
Owners love them though - amazing software. One pointed out how good they are for the crazy mountain roads here, torque & regen braking. Negatives were one really bad service experience, and then some from non-owners parroting conservative radio talking points.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

Laconian

"Not up to Audi levels" is too mild a statement. The interior quality isn't even up to Bolt levels IMO. The plastics and their rubberized coatings are like fingernails on a chalkboard for dash strokers.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

GoCougs

As I've said many times, Tesla product is a sociological study on the value of quality and workmanship. Just think the untold time and $$$ the rest of the automotive industry has spent on body panel gaps, paint quality, mold lines, squeaks/rattles, NVH, etc. Tesla's $100k+ models can't touch a $22k Civic. At ~10 years hence, with the Model Y approaching if not having taken the spot as top selling vehicle on the planet, it's pretty much impossible IMO to couch it as early adopter largesse.

CaminoRacer

The drivetrain and software experience is just on another level so other flaws are forgiven
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

MrH

Brand reputation is in the trash already, and will continue to get worse.  People falsely conflate EV powertrain positives with Tesla.  When other OEMs can consistently provide that without the Tesla issues that plague everything they make, the sentiment will change.  Public perception takes a long time to turn though.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

AutobahnSHO

I like how a lot of my peeps view Tesla fanbois like the bummer drivers of old  :ohyeah:
Will

r0tor

Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 30, 2023, 12:27:53 PMThe drivetrain and software experience is just on another level so other flaws are forgiven

This ... I think it's the rare instance where performance is so eye opening to consumers that they forget about everything else.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

GoCougs

Quote from: MrH on May 30, 2023, 12:41:40 PMBrand reputation is in the trash already, and will continue to get worse.  People falsely conflate EV powertrain positives with Tesla.  When other OEMs can consistently provide that without the Tesla issues that plague everything they make, the sentiment will change.  Public perception takes a long time to turn though.

It's been ~10 years of drama, controversy and subpar product, and the Model Y is now deed the best selling vehicle on the planet, plus Germany and China are foaming at the mouth for Tesla mega factories. There's plenty of other EVs other there but they still only sell in token volumes.

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: GoCougs on May 31, 2023, 03:28:32 PMIt's been ~10 years of drama, controversy and subpar product, and the Model Y is now deed the best selling vehicle on the planet, plus Germany and China are foaming at the mouth for Tesla mega factories. There's plenty of other EVs other there but they still only sell in token volumes.

People are weird, man!

The TWO people I know who own Teslas
-one got a screaming good deal but would have kept their Volt if it didn't have weird shutoff issues
-other is a car nut, single guy, has 6+ cars and the Tesla is for stupid fast cheap speed. He usually drives his GTI with non-riced sweet looking mods to work. License plate "TOBLAVE" (Princess Bride reference, yeah he's weird).
Will

r0tor

Despite the flaws and rants, the Tesla x/y is still the best EV option for practicality and performance reasons
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

giant_mtb

Quote from: r0tor on May 31, 2023, 05:36:30 PMDespite the flaws and rants, the Tesla x/y is still the best EV option for practicality and performance reasons

I think you're basically right. Especially as vehicles become more and more like "appliances" that can (mostly) drive themselves from A to B. People are caring less about the quality.

Which is a shame from multiple aspects, but I understand it for the everyday consumer that DGAF about cars.

SJ_GTI

Quote from: r0tor on May 31, 2023, 05:36:30 PMDespite the flaws and rants, the Tesla x/y is still the best EV option for practicality and performance reasons

I think you can make a case that for a given price Tesla are still the best performance (ie: speed/handling), but practically all the major manufacturers have practical EV's now. GM's Bolt seems the best combo of price and practicality (IMHO), thought it clearly couldn't match the Model 3 for performance (speed/handling). The others (Ford, Kia, Hyundai, BMW, VW, Audi, MB, etc...) all have options with various levels of performance and practicality. Given that "non Tesla" EV sales are growing faster than Tesla sales I think it is reasonable to assume that the market is catching up and offering different variations to suit different peoples wants/needs.

r0tor

Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 01, 2023, 05:27:47 AMI think you can make a case that for a given price Tesla are still the best performance (ie: speed/handling), but practically all the major manufacturers have practical EV's now. GM's Bolt seems the best combo of price and practicality (IMHO), thought it clearly couldn't match the Model 3 for performance (speed/handling). The others (Ford, Kia, Hyundai, BMW, VW, Audi, MB, etc...) all have options with various levels of performance and practicality. Given that "non Tesla" EV sales are growing faster than Tesla sales I think it is reasonable to assume that the market is catching up and offering different variations to suit different peoples wants/needs.

Practicality of an EV includes charging both at home and out in the real world... The later of which is still a massive cluster outside of Tesla
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

veeman

Buying a Tesla is going all in.  Only sells pure EV, no dealerships, and if you need a loaner you get another Tesla.

Buying an EV from an established ICE automaker is one foot in and one foot out. That probably doesn't matter to a lot of people but it's not completely "cutting the cord". 

As an analogy most popular think cable sucks but they keep it because it's easy and it always (or most of the time anyways) works.  Then a subset of these people completely cut the cord and, despite some issues of not being able to watch something they wanted to, overall are happy they cut the cord. They'll never go back. 

Dealerships are like cable TV.  Few people like them but they make life easier.

Morris Minor

Quote from: veeman on June 01, 2023, 11:25:59 AMBuying a Tesla is going all in.  Only sells pure EV, no dealerships, and if you need a loaner you get another Tesla.

Buying an EV from an established ICE automaker is one foot in and one foot out. That probably doesn't matter to a lot of people but it's not completely "cutting the cord". 

As an analogy most popular think cable sucks but they keep it because it's easy and it always (or most of the time anyways) works.  Then a subset of these people completely cut the cord and, despite some issues of not being able to watch something they wanted to, overall are happy they cut the cord. They'll never go back. 

Dealerships are like cable TV.  Few people like them but they make life easier.
I respectfully disagree on dealerships. IMO they are a ball & chain for the OEMs: they drag down brand reputation and siphon off profit. The challenge for OEMs & customers is that dealerships are wealthy and pay state legislators to protect their rackets.

Manufacturers need local mechanisms for sales fulfillment & service... maybe a small showroom here & there. But everything else about the dealership model could be broomed & replaced with a smartphone app. 
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

Laconian

If that's the case, I don't know how long that kind of loyalty will last. Everything's looking a bit long in the tooth at this point. At least with other car companies you get a tick/tock refresh/replacement cycle that keeps things exciting within a given segment. And there are other brands you can flee to in the event your favorite brand pushes J-bodies for too long. :lol:
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Morris Minor

There's a refresh of the 3 coming out soon. Also they're going to build a smaller car when the factory in Mexico gets going. Guessing it would be about the size of a Golf or Corolla.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

MrH

Quote from: Morris Minor on June 04, 2023, 08:48:10 AMThere's a refresh of the 3 coming out soon. Also they're going to build a smaller car when the factory in Mexico gets going. Guessing it would be about the size of a Golf or Corolla.

Is that coming out before or after the roadster, the cybertruck, the semi, next gen model s, full self driving, trips to Mars, Optimus robots, etc?
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

GoCougs

Quote from: MrH on June 04, 2023, 08:59:51 AMIs that coming out before or after the roadster, the cybertruck, the semi, next gen model s, full self driving, trips to Mars, Optimus robots, etc?

The drama is the allure in extreme - people fucking love it.

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: GoCougs on June 04, 2023, 09:15:56 AMThe drama is the allure in extreme - people fucking love it.

People love anything that makes them feel better than other people.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

Morris Minor

If true, this is a disappointment for the UK. Sitting on the outside of the EU tariff zone has its drawbacks.

Tesla negotiates to build an electric car factory in Valencia
https://cincodias.elpais.com/companias/2023-06-08/tesla-negocia-levantar-una-fabrica-de-coches-electricos-en-valencia.html

Google Translation:
Everything indicates that Tesla will manufacture electric vehicles in Spain. The US company is negotiating with the Generalitat Valenciana to build a car assembly plant in the metropolitan area of Valencia, sources familiar with the operation confirm to CincoDías . The Generalitat, which has signed a confidentiality agreement with the company run by Elon Musk, has refused to comment on it.

This Wednesday, the Levante-EMV newspaper announced (without giving the name of the company) that a multinational would invest more than 4,500 million euros . Sources familiar with the process, although they do not specify the amount, point out to this newspaper that the figure could be significantly higher and that it will be greater than what the VW group will do in Sagunto to build its battery plant. There, the German consortium reported that it will spend 3,000 million to build a 40 GWh gigafactory, expandable to 60 GWh. In the latter case, the sum would amount to 4,500 million , as it appears in the initiative presented to the Generalitat Valenciana by the company Power Holdco, belonging to the VW group.

Tesla was from one of the several multinationals with which the Valencian government was in dialogue to land in the region. On May 19, Ximo Puig, president of the Generalitat, had pointed out at the Mediterranean Tribune Europe Forum that his executive was holding open negotiations "at the highest level" with ten large companies to settle there, which could involve an investment of 24,400 million euros and the creation of 43,000 direct jobs.

The Valencian automobile sector remained completely oblivious to these talks, but celebrated in a statement the existence of said negotiations with a multinational motor company. "If an investment of this magnitude is confirmed, the sector will be at the disposal of the company that has chosen the Valencian Community for its destination," said the president of the Valencian automotive cluster, Francisco Segura, on Wednesday.

If confirmed (the talks with the company "are very advanced", the Generalitat acknowledged yesterday, when the name of the company was not yet known), Valencia will become the great center of the Spanish automobile industry . The region will have the Volkswagen battery plant, which will start operating in 2026, and the Ford Almussafes plant, which will start assembling electric cars in the middle of the decade . This comes on top of the arrival of Tesla, the world's largest maker of electric vehicles, which last year opened its first plant in Europe, in Berlin.

If the Berlin factory, announced in 2019 and inaugurated in March 2022, is taken as a reference, the company directed by Elon Musk invested some 5,000 million dollars there (about 4,661.8 million euros at current exchange rates). There, the manufacturer has the capacity to assemble 500,000 electric vehicles per year. Valencia would be his second factory in the Old Continent.

In 2022, Tesla was the largest seller of electric cars in the world, with 1.31 million units delivered, which represented an advance of 40% compared to the previous year. The automobile company is thus far ahead of competitors such as the Volkswagen group , which in that year sold 572,100 electric vehicles worldwide, with a growth of 26%.

Sales of the North American manufacturer have been boosted in recent months by an aggressive discount policy that other car companies cannot follow. The company, a pioneer in this type of vehicle, is taking advantage of its years of advantage in technological developments to lower prices and leave many of its competitors out of the game .

Where this discount policy began was in China , the largest market for electric vehicles in the world, where in the last quarter of 2022 it lowered its prices by up to 24%. The reason was the withdrawal of aid for the purchase of electric cars by the Chinese government, which affected sales. Discounts in the United States and Europe followed. In our country, the Model 3 can now be obtained for about 39,990 euros, when at the beginning of the year it was around 53,000 euros.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

MrH

This isn't news.  Here are all the plants that were rumored in just the last couple of years.  Is this supposed to happen before or after these?

- LFP battery plant with CATL in the US
- India
- Indonesia
- Canada
- Battery plant with Panasonic in Oklahoma
- A second plant next to their Shanghai plant
- New, unnamed location in China
- Mexico
- South Korea
- multiple rumors about plants in the UK :lol:
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

SJ_GTI

So GM is also going to be using Tesla superchargers in the future...interesting development.

I have to imagine the supercharging itself is profitable for Tesla because this takes away one of their biggest selling points in the future.

Morris Minor

Quote from: Morris Minor on May 26, 2023, 07:49:04 PMI would guess Hyundai/Kia would be the most likely to join Ford. GM much less so.

Stellantis - nobody cares.
Well I guessed wrong on this one. GM is jumping on board too.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/08/gm-tesla-partner-on-ev-charging-network.html
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

CaminoRacer

#5336
CCS1 is dead, long live NACS
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Morris Minor

Will risk eating crow again... and guess KIA/Hyundai will go next. The elegance of their design & engineering is incongruous with CCS. (C&D tested the Ioniq 6 & loved it)
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

Morris Minor

Right down in the weeds, but HVAC nerds might like this. Taking heat from everywhere they can: inverters, traction motors, computer, cabin blower fan etc. - 16 sources.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

Laconian

Potential unintentional acceleration root cause found. Big DC draws cause brief voltage drops which can bias up pedal ADC calibration into thinking that an undervoltaged state is the new baseline. The power steering can induce this state; it draws 100A from DC.

The miscalibrated ADC will think that an accelerator pedal with no pressure applied is floored.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/breaking-nhtsa-petition-shows-tesla-s-sudden-unintended-acceleration-is-real-and-curable-217525.html
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT