Dieselgate - the cancer is spreading

[cawimmer430]

Thing is Diesel cars are also expensive to own here because of their taxation scheme.

Diesel fuel is cheap and if you generally do over 15,000 km a year then a Diesel car makes financial sense. If not, then you're paying more to own a Diesel car. You still get the fuel economy and range benefits, but you're paying more to enjoy them.

For some cars, however, a Diesel engine makes them cheaper to own even if you don't do huge mileages: big fat luxury cars and SUVs. And this is why literally 8 out of 10 luxury SUVs here are powered by Diesels.

In the end it's also personal preference. I think the Diesel characteristics are ideal for big fat SUVs. 

[mzziaz]

How are they the perfect match? In the US it's they're at least a $5,000 upgrade and are generally slower, and always noisier, dirtier, smellier, and usually don't ever offer a payback on the minor efficiency gains.

Diesel will be gone in Europe within 10-15 years (i.e., will follow the lead of Paris, Madrid and Athens). They're just too dirty. Oh, and EVs are a "Mr. Fusion" or catastrophic levels of government intervention away from taking over.

The torquey engine characteristics of a diesel suits an SUV very well, as does the significantly lower consumption. The NVH/smell arguments you mention are totally overblown.

Here, where diesel fuel is cheaper than gasoline, it is a no brainer.

[GoCougs]

The torquey engine characteristics of a diesel suits an SUV very well, as does the significantly lower consumption. The NVH/smell arguments you mention are totally overblown.

Here, where diesel fuel is cheaper than gasoline, it is a no brainer.

With 8+ speed transmissions now the norm, torque curve issues are a non issue.

Diesel fuel would have to be at least ~20% cheaper to offset more expensive purchase cost, maintenance and repair. Harder to quantify having to live with the additional noise and smell and likely decreased performance however. 

At least in the US, gasoline is simply the better choice for passenger vehicles. Diesel only makes sense for commercial rigs (i.e., constantly laden if not perpetually operating at full load).

[12,000 RPM]

With 8+ speed transmissions now the norm, torque curve issues are a non issue.

To a point. Not very refined to have your $50K+ luxury vehicle groaning at 4K+ RPMs

But I agree otherwise.... here in the US where our fuel costs aren't colored by wacky taxes, and our driving habits are more suitable to payback, it still doesn't add up for the average person. Especially factoring in the "dieselfication" of the gas engine with this turbocharging craze.

[CaminoRacer]

Gas engine 4000rpm is hella smooth compared to 2500rpm in a dieSLOW.

[12,000 RPM]

Gas engine 4000rpm is hella smooth compared to 2500rpm in a dieSLOW.

There are too many variables. At ~85 MPH, diesel Focus wagon rental I had was probably spinning under 2000 in 6th. Constrast that to my Civic which is probably close to or at 4000 in 5th at the same gear, like "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". For highway driving I know which of the two I prefer (hint not Civic)

[2o6]

To a point. Not very refined to have your $50K+ luxury vehicle groaning at 4K+ RPMs

But I agree otherwise.... here in the US where our fuel costs aren't colored by wacky taxes, and our driving habits are more suitable to payback, it still doesn't add up for the average person. Especially factoring in the "dieselfication" of the gas engine with this turbocharging craze.

Have you driven these 8-9AT cars? An x5 3.0TT is only turning like 1900RPM at 75MPH.

[2o6]

There are too many variables. At ~85 MPH, diesel Focus wagon rental I had was probably spinning under 2000 in 6th. Constrast that to my Civic which is probably close to or at 4000 in 5th at the same gear, like "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". For highway driving I know which of the two I prefer (hint not Civic)

Gearing is a product of engine characteristics, and Hondas have been traditionally torqueless and geared very short.



My car is a 1.4T, and it turns 2300RPM at 70MPH in 6th. If I take it up to 85MPH, it's not even 3K RPM.


(The Yaris was a 3200RPM at 65MPH)

[2o6]

The torquey engine characteristics of a diesel suits an SUV very well, as does the significantly lower consumption. The NVH/smell arguments you mention are totally overblown.

Here, where diesel fuel is cheaper than gasoline, it is a no brainer.

I've driven a few diesel X5's and although I didn't mind the diesel engine, I don't understand the appeal of a diesel motor in a large SUV. Maybe 10 years ago, when a diesel X5 would real world get closer to 26-27MPG, but these days the gap between gas and diesel is closing.

[Vinsanity]

We need to fund Wimmer's automotive exchange trip here more than ever.... he's slipping further and further into his delusions of the American automotive landscape.

Poor sap's gonna be dismayed to see all the malaise-era yachts rusted to oblivion in the scrap yards.

But yeah, there's definitely been a proliferation of B- and C- segment hatchbacks in the past 5 years or so. It's almost as if the American working man actually wants something practical and efficient as well. Shocking.

[AutobahnSHO]

You guys know how much it costs to make diesel vs petrol?

[MX793]

Some law firm (which has been helming consumer class action suit against VWAG and FCA) just filed suit against GM for their diesel trucks having defeat devices.  Nothing from the EPA/feds, but if true, the penalties in the US could be worse than what VW paid.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a9942689/general-motors-accused-of-rigging-diesel-pickup-truck-emissions/

[CaminoRacer]

Seems like they're just suing everyone now in hopes of a payday.

[MX793]

Seems like they're just suing everyone now in hopes of a payday.

Most likely.  I'm sure at least 50% of the settlement $$$ is going to the lawyers.

[Soup DeVille]

You guys know how much it costs to make diesel vs petrol?

Until it became "ultra low sulfur" diesel fuel, it cost less. I don't know that that is still the case.

[93JC]

This law firm are a bunch of jokers akin to ambulance-chasers. They're the same schmucks who already filed suit against GM for supposedly using the same trickery VW did to get the Chevy Cruze diesel to pass emissions testing, and who filed suit against Daimler and FCA for the same thing. They've sued just about every carmaker out there for one thing or another—Ford, Kia, Tesla...

[Tave]

Most likely.  I'm sure at least 50% of the settlement $$$ is going to the lawyers.

With the VW class action, VW paid out 100% of the ordered judgment to the class members, and then they paid the plaintiff counsel's fees on top of it. None of the money from the actual settlement went to pay the attorneys.

[MX793]

With the VW class action, VW paid out 100% of the ordered judgment to the class members, and then they paid the plaintiff counsel's fees on top of it. None of the money from the actual settlement went to pay the attorneys.

From past experience with consumer class action suits, I find that really surprising.

[Tave]

From past experience with consumer class action suits, I find that really surprising.

I was just as surprised as you. I'm guessing the combo of big individual loss amounts, large class size, and huge publicity kept the excess in check.

As much as I complained about the process, they ended up paying me almost exactly the purchase price of the car.

[MX793]

I was just as surprised as you. I'm guessing the combo of big individual loss amounts, large class size, and huge publicity kept the excess in check.

As much as I complained about the process, they ended up paying me almost exactly the purchase price of the car.

The fact that it was a buy-back deal rather than pure reimbursement is probably the difference.  Most of my encounters with class action settlements revolved around companies I was a shareholder in being sued for misrepresenting their financials or similar.  The lawyers end up cleaning house on those deals.

[Morris Minor]

Minor point, but I learned on vacation that filling up with diesel gives you stinky diesel hands at most pumps. It would have been good to have a pair of gloves in the trunk.

[Soup DeVille]

Minor point, but I learned on vacation that filling up with diesel gives you stinky diesel hands at most pumps. It would have been good to have a pair of gloves in the trunk.

Lol, just wait until you top off the DEF.

[shp4man]

Just drove a 2014 BMW 328 D. Impressive power and torque, oddball transmission control system, very precise steering. Too much electronic crap. I cant image paying to fix that stuff in 8 or 9 years. Also, just a little bit of Kubota tractor sound at parking lot speeds, but otherwise very un-diesel like.