M/T On Demand: 2017 ZL1 vs. 2017 GT350R

[GoCougs]

https://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2017-ford-shelby-mustang-gt350r-/0_fq6remft/

Great video and just in general M/T is still killing it these days with their video content - well worth the sub. This isn't the best match up as the ZL1 is more a GT and the GT350R is more a track car but as of today each represents the top of their model range. They said they'll do a rematch when the ZL1 1LE is available (particularly, R-compound tires).

SPOILER:

ZL1 has superior performance (strip and track), far better comfort (ride and NVH), better quality (paint, interior), better drivablity (particularly throttle response and engine NVH) and though close they chose the GT350R because it had more drama (their words), was louder and more raw and had better balance and engine sound.

[GoCougs]

I will say (again) I do prefer Ford's N/A approach. Sure, the ZL1 is on another level for acceleration but at this level, does it really matter? But I will also say (again) that Ford made a mistake with the flat plane approach. There are power band and NVH and response issues. Sure, it's novel and sounds good but the results are questionable esp. WRT the 12-year-old LS7. Throwing Voodoo effort into the Coyote would have resulted in a better performing motor but not as high revving nor as novel. I would very much look forward to an SS 1LE w/550 hp "LT7" (and the pinnacle of the pony car craft).

[MX793]

Voodoo could have been much more flexible if Ford had bothered to develop VVL.  For whatever reason, Ford (as well as the other US manufacturers) doesn't want to invest in this technology.

[GoCougs]

But a one trick pony though - Voodoo isn't going to be used anywhere else. At least an upmarket Coyote could be deployed in lesser form elsewhere - i.e., the effort would scale.

Perhaps VVL is the path but then again GM and Chrylser are getting big usable N/A power without VVL. That all said, in general, with ever more forced induction and transmission speeds the benefit of wide(r) power band dwindles considerably.

[MX793]

But a one trick pony though - Voodoo isn't going to be used anywhere else. At least an upmarket Coyote could be deployed in lesser form elsewhere - i.e., the effort would scale.

Perhaps VVL is the path but then again GM and Chrylser are getting big usable N/A power without VVL. That all said, in general, with ever more forced induction and transmission speeds the benefit of wide(r) power band dwindles considerably.

VVL tech could be carried over to other engines.  Coyote, Cyclone, Duratec...

[12,000 RPM]

I would bet the heads on the Coyote/Voodoo are the same, aside from timing and tuning obviously. The IMs swap over. So if Ford made VVT for the Voodoo it could use the same parts across the rest of the V8s, and if they were smart across their whole DOHC lineup. Kind of surprised by that

[GoCougs]

VVL tech could be carried over to other engines.  Coyote, Cyclone, Duratec...

True, but since those other engines sell in such higher quantities, the more likely/easier path would be that the tech would flowed to the Voodoo.

[GoCougs]

I would bet the heads on the Coyote/Voodoo are the same, aside from timing and tuning obviously. The IMs swap over. So if Ford made VVT for the Voodoo it could use the same parts across the rest of the V8s, and if they were smart across their whole DOHC lineup. Kind of surprised by that

I would take that bet.

Eeking out another 1,250 rpm and ~90 hp at 12:1 CR virtually guarantees that there was significant work in combustion chamber design over the Coyote.

[68_427]

I think we knew what their choice would be right off the bat.

[CaminoRacer]

I've seen multiple GT350R's at autox events and I'm thoroughly unimpressed. Too much hype.

[GoCougs]

I think we knew what their choice would be right off the bat.

To be fair they've picked the other trims of the Camaro over pretty much everything, including the M4.

[MX793]

I would take that bet.

Eeking out another 1,250 rpm and ~90 hp at 12:1 CR virtually guarantees that there was significant work in combustion chamber design over the Coyote.

Guys are bolting Voodoo heads with cross-plane sequenced cams onto Coyotes.  In fact, Ford's in-house performance group was showing off a kit that included Voodoo heads for the Coyote.  It obviously would have had some work done to the porting and chamber shape (what I think Sporty meant by "tuning"), but it is physically interchangeable, so obviously closely related.

[MX793]

I've seen multiple GT350R's at autox events and I'm thoroughly unimpressed. Too much hype.

They're down on low end grunt, which is where you'll spend much of your time at an auto-x.  A regular 5.0 GT with 3.73s will walk a GT350 in a top gear roll on anywhere below 100 mph or so.  The two are geared almost the same (350 is maybe 2% shorter).  Auto-x really isn't what they were built for.

[MX793]

I would bet the heads on the Coyote/Voodoo are the same, aside from timing and tuning obviously. The IMs swap over. So if Ford made VVT for the Voodoo it could use the same parts across the rest of the V8s, and if they were smart across their whole DOHC lineup. Kind of surprised by that

Ford has VVT.  Voodoo has it on both cams, as does the Coyote and Cyclone/Duratec V6.  But VVT only gets you so far.  VVL with VVT will really fatten up the power band.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

ZL1 has superior performance (strip and track), far better comfort (ride and NVH), better quality (paint, interior), better drivablity (particularly throttle response and engine NVH) and though close they chose the GT350R because it had more drama (their words), was louder and more raw and had better balance and engine sound.

Bullshit.......

[FoMoJo]

Ford has VVT.  Voodoo has it on both cams, as does the Coyote and Cyclone/Duratec V6.  But VVT only gets you so far.  VVL with VVT will really fatten up the power band.

So would a little more displacement; but that's beside the point .  VVL would certainly help, but for the extra cost and complexity, it just doesn't seem worth it just to get an extra bump at higher rpm ranges.  It might be worth it on limited displacement engines.

[FoMoJo]

Bullshit.......

So, they're comparing a blown 6.2 litre vs. a 5.2 litre NA engine and the Mustang still takes the cake .

[12,000 RPM]

So would a little more displacement; but that's beside the point .  VVL would certainly help, but for the extra cost and complexity, it just doesn't seem worth it just to get an extra bump at higher rpm ranges.  It might be worth it on limited displacement engines.

If a Fiat 500 can have VVL, any car can.

[MX793]

So would a little more displacement; but that's beside the point .  VVL would certainly help, but for the extra cost and complexity, it just doesn't seem worth it just to get an extra bump at higher rpm ranges.  It might be worth it on limited displacement engines.

VVL would actually help the Voodoo make more power down low.  With a fixed cam profile, Ford had to sacrifice lower RPM power to make the power it does up top.  To breathe well at high RPM, you want large valve openings (high lift, large valves), but at lower RPM, an engine breathes better with smaller valve openings.  VVL let's you have both.

[GoCougs]

So, they're comparing a blown 6.2 litre vs. a 5.2 litre NA engine and the Mustang still takes the cake .

Well, the ZL1 is the better performer and by M/T's admission the better car in general, which means M/T fanboy'd it to choose the GT350R over the ZL1. They tried a bit too hard to justify it - they just should have come out with it.

[12,000 RPM]

Oh come on. This is the GT-R vs GT3. Both are faster than you will ever need on the street, but only one will make dead men scream. There is a wrong and right choice, and the ZL1 is not the right one.

[GoCougs]

Oh come on. This is the GT-R vs GT3. Both are faster than you will ever need on the street, but only one will make dead men scream. There is a wrong and right choice, and the ZL1 is not the right one.

The GT-R is a now 10-year-old car but in 2008 was a revolution on par with the LS400 and NSX and it most certainly slotted above the 2008 911 - GT3 or Turbo, and virtually all others. You'd have to be a fanboy to take the 911 GT3 over the GT-R circa 2008 just as you'd have to be a fanboy to take the GT350R over the ZL1 circa 2017. It's no sin, but there it is.

TL;DR - Point taken on the ZL1/GT-R comparison. Thanks .

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

There is a wrong and right choice, and the ZL1 is not the right one.

Why not! It's the all around better car AND kicks the GT in the face performance wise! How could it not be the right choice?

So, they're comparing a blown 6.2 litre vs. a 5.2 litre NA engine and the Mustang still takes the cake .

Ford ALWAYS bring a knife to a gun fight..... 

[12,000 RPM]

The GT-R is a now 10-year-old car but in 2008 was a revolution on par with the LS400 and NSX and it most certainly slotted above the 2008 911 - GT3 or Turbo, and virtually all others. You'd have to be a fanboy to take the 911 GT3 over the GT-R circa 2008 just as you'd have to be a fanboy to take the GT350R over the ZL1 circa 2017. It's no sin, but there it is.

TL;DR - Point taken on the ZL1/GT-R comparison. Thanks .

If all that matters is objective performance then yes the ZL1 is better. Unfortunately for you, Mr. Bench Racer, it isn't . The GT350R sounds/looks/feels better, and is hardly slow.   So when you are not at the race track/WOT/at the car's limits, which on the street will be about 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of the time, the GT350R will be more fun to drive everywhere but maybe an on ramp or a top gear pass. This isn't to say the ZL1 is a bad car, but for actual driving on the road and not bench racing the GT350R is better.

The GT-R analogy is 100% apt.... I drove one back to back with a 458 on the same track.... GT-R was fast but it drove and sounded like an Altima on steroids. And I would say the Altima sounded better These things matter to people who actually drive cars and don't just bench race on the internet

[GoCougs]

If all that matters is objective performance then yes the ZL1 is better. Unfortunately for you, Mr. Bench Racer, it isn't . The GT350R sounds/looks/feels better, and is hardly slow.   So when you are not at the race track/WOT/at the car's limits, which on the street will be about 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of the time, the GT350R will be more fun to drive everywhere but maybe an on ramp or a top gear pass. This isn't to say the ZL1 is a bad car, but for actual driving on the road and not bench racing the GT350R is better.

The GT-R analogy is 100% apt.... I drove one back to back with a 458 on the same track.... GT-R was fast but it drove and sounded like an Altima on steroids. And I would say the Altima sounded better These things matter to people who actually drive cars and don't just bench race on the internet

Your GT-R analogy backfired and watch as everyone agrees with me. The GT-R changed the world of mega performance and it's not an argument. The ZL1 isn't quite that level of revolution, but it does tilt the world of budget performance. 

The point is, by M/T's admission, the ZL1 is the better car - higher performance, better drive, more comfortable, does bad things (burnouts, drifts, etc.) better. They chose the GT350R because they thought it looked and sounded better, and had more "drama."

It's fine to chose the lesser car because you're a fanboy, and M/T was basically honest about. Will you look past your L on this and do the same?

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Your GT-R analogy backfired and watch as everyone agrees with me. The GT-R changed the world of mega performance and it's not an argument. The ZL1 isn't quite that level of revolution, but it does tilt the world of budget performance. 

The point is, by M/T's admission, the ZL1 is the better car - higher performance, better drive, more comfortable, does bad things (burnouts, drifts, etc.) better. They chose the GT350R because they thought it looked and sounded better, and had more "drama."

It's fine to chose the lesser car because you're a fanboy, and M/T was basically honest about. Will you look past your L on this and do the same?

Fanbois........

[Tave]

You guys keep on talking about things like ride quality, NVH, and all-arounders like they aren't reviewing a track-prepped barely street legal race car with no carpeting, rear seats, AC, sat nav, etc...

They do sell another car, called the GT350, that has all those things. They also offer equipment-add options to the 350R that puts most of that stuff back in.

[RomanChariot]

You guys keep on talking about things like ride quality, NVH, and all-arounders like they aren't reviewing a track-prepped barely street legal race car with no carpeting, rear seats, AC, sat nav, etc...

They do sell another car, called the GT350, that has all those things. They also offer equipment-add options to the 350R that puts most of that stuff back in.

If they picked the GT350R because it was louder and more raw, adding comfort equipment is going to decrease that raw feeling.

[Tave]

If they picked the GT350R because it was louder and more raw, adding comfort equipment is going to decrease that raw feeling.

Maybe, maybe not, certainly possible.

My post was in reponse to our two fine friends perplexing over why the "better car" didn't win.

[Tave]

Since I'm out sick for awhile I decided to try out MT on demand to pass the time, geez maybe we can clear some of the confusion:

Takeaways:

-Camaro is a better performer but the gap is minuscule: ~.4sec over a ~1:30 lap.
-Camaro is easier to drive smooth but it feels much heavier than the Mustang and has a brittle ride
-Mustang feels both lighter and more responsive to chassis inputs
-They enjoyed both the sound and the occasion of the Mustang ver the Camaro

I think the lap time is pretty telling--the Camaro must be losing serious ground in the corners given the huge power discrepancy.