M/T On Demand: 2017 ZL1 vs. 2017 GT350R

[CaminoRacer]

Ehh I think they're both above the "plenty of hp" line where the extra grunt won't make a huge difference on a road course. Too many other variables such as chassis tuning, aero, and tires.

[12,000 RPM]

Your GT-R analogy backfired and watch as everyone agrees with me. The GT-R changed the world of mega performance and it's not an argument. The ZL1 isn't quite that level of revolution, but it does tilt the world of budget performance. 

The point is, by M/T's admission, the ZL1 is the better car - higher performance, better drive, more comfortable, does bad things (burnouts, drifts, etc.) better. They chose the GT350R because they thought it looked and sounded better, and had more "drama."

It's fine to chose the lesser car because you're a fanboy, and M/T was basically honest about. Will you look past your L on this and do the same?

Nobody agreed with you besides our respected but biased GM fanbois (and calling CaminoRacer's posts "agreement" is a stretch)

An extreme analogy but an S63 AMG will run circles around a Miata on bench racing stats but only the staunchest neck beardest bench racing basement dweller would call the Benz the better driver's car, which is what I thought these videos sought to seek out.

Not to mention I'm not sure how MT are Ford fanbois when they have (rightfully) heaped praise on the 6G SS, calling it better than every driver's car cheaper than 80K or so. In that case the better performing car also happened to be the better driver's car, but that is often not the case Only fanboi here is you, butthurt that your brand lost a comparo

[GoCougs]

Since I'm out sick for awhile I decided to try out MT on demand to pass the time, geez maybe we can clear some of the confusion:

Takeaways:

-Camaro is a better performer but the gap is minuscule: ~.4sec over a ~1:30 lap.
-Camaro is easier to drive smooth but it feels much heavier than the Mustang and has a brittle ride
-Mustang feels both lighter and more responsive to chassis inputs
-They enjoyed both the sound and the occasion of the Mustang ver the Camaro

I think the lap time is pretty telling--the Camaro must be losing serious ground in the corners given the huge power discrepancy.

Close.

ZL1 advantage in acceleration is galactic.

ZL1 advantage on the track is smaller but still large. 0.4 second on a ~1:30 lap, over the course of a race these cars would ever be involved in (amateur w/out pit stops) - say 10 laps - and the ZL1 finishes a 1/4 mile or more in the lead (read: no contest).

GT350R ride was far more stiff - note the track commentary when the three were in the GT350R.

GT350R is on Michelin Sport Cup 2 R-compound tires whereas the ZL1 is on F1 Super Car street tires.

The ZL1 is the better performer car across the board, is more comfortable and is cheaper. Sans that, everything else is up for debate.

[Tave]

Ehh I think they're both above the "plenty of hp" line where the extra grunt won't make a huge difference on a road course. Too many other variables such as chassis tuning, aero, and tires.

The Camaro makes significantly more power. That it can't walk away from the Mustang means those other variables you've mentioned aren't as well-sorted as they are in the Ford. 

[MX793]

The Sport Cup 2 is still a 180TW tire and would be considered a "street tire" in many racing series.  It would have been "street" eligible in SCCA Solo up until a couple of years ago when they bumped the minimum TW up to 200.  The F1 Supercar is a 220TW tire and would compete with Auto-X specials like the BFG Rival or Dunlop Star Specs.  The performance capabilities of these two isn't as drastic as you'd think.

[Tave]

Close.

ZL1 advantage in acceleration is galactic.

ZL1 advantage on the track is smaller but still large. 0.4 second on a ~1:30 lap, over the course of a race these cars would ever be involved in (amateur w/out pit stops) - say 10 laps - and the ZL1 finishes a 1/4 mile or more in the lead (read: no contest).

GT350R ride was far more stiff - note the track commentary when the three were in the GT350R.

GT350R is on Michelin Sport Cup 2 R-compound tires whereas the ZL1 is on F1 Super Car street tires.

The ZL1 is the better performer car across the board, is more comfortable and is cheaper. Sans that, everything else is up for debate.

At .4 sec per lap on a 10-lap race we're talking about a 4 second final gap. That's not a 1/4 mile+ unless the cars are averaging over 180mph across the entire circuit.

[CaminoRacer]

Nobody agreed with you besides our respected but biased GM fanbois (and calling CaminoRacer's posts "agreement" is a stretch)

An extreme analogy but an S63 AMG will run circles around a Miata on bench racing stats but only the staunchest neck beardest bench racing basement dweller would call the Benz the better driver's car, which is what I thought these videos sought to seek out.

Not to mention I'm not sure how MT are Ford fanbois when they have (rightfully) heaped praise on the 6G SS, calling it better than every driver's car cheaper than 80K or so. In that case the better performing car also happened to be the better driver's car, but that is often not the case Only fanboi here is you, butthurt that your brand lost a comparo

Honestly both cars are so fast and well-sorted that anyone in the market should just pick based on styling.

[12,000 RPM]

The Camaro makes significantly more power. That it can't walk away from the Mustang means those other variables you've mentioned aren't as well-sorted as they are in the Ford. 

Since we are ocean deep into bench racing pedantry, I also question the notion that that lap time gap would remain the same over the 10 laps of a race distance nobody here would take their $7K let alone $70K car on. ZL1 is heavier and undertired compared to the Rustang, and will also be much more susceptible to heat soak.

[Tave]

Since we are ocean deep into bench racing pedantry, I also question the notion that that lap time gap would remain the same over the 10 laps of a race distance nobody here would take their $7K let alone $70K car on. ZL1 is heavier and undertired compared to the Rustang, and will also be much more susceptible to heat soak.

They've attempted to solve the LT4 Vette's heat issues by cramming it full of additional intercoolers.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Since we are ocean deep into bench racing pedantry, I also question the notion that that lap time gap would remain the same over the 10 laps of a race distance nobody here would take their $7K let alone $70K car on. ZL1 is heavier and undertired compared to the Rustang, and will also be much more susceptible to heat soak.

The thing here is this is the "Street" version of the ZL1. The 1LE ZL1 will do battle with the 350R! The gap in lap times WILL get bigger! 

[FoMoJo]

Honestly both cars are so fast and well-sorted that anyone in the market should just pick based on styling.

Yes.  In that case the Mustang wins hands down.

[CaminoRacer]

Yes.  In that case the Mustang wins hands down.

Corvette Stingray

[r0tor]

A 10 lap battle would come down to which car keeps its temps under control and keeps its tires from turning to goo... My bet would be the Mustang

[r0tor]

The thing here is this is the "Street" version of the ZL1. The 1LE ZL1 will do battle with the 350R! The gap in lap times WILL get bigger! 

And then the GT500 comes out and they are on equal hp terms at that gap disappears

[CaminoRacer]

And then the GT500 comes out and they are on equal hp terms at that gap disappears

A GT500 will probably have to be supercharged to get more power. There goes the cooling and weight advantage.

[GoCougs]

At .4 sec per lap on a 10-lap race we're talking about a 4 second final gap. That's not a 1/4 mile+ unless the cars are averaging over 180mph across the entire circuit.

You're correct. My guess on track length was wrong (short). The difference is ~550' or ~35 car lengths, which makes all the difference.

[GoCougs]

A 10 lap battle would come down to which car keeps its temps under control and keeps its tires from turning to goo... My bet would be the Mustang

Maybe. There's a reason that if given the chance a race team will stay clear of forced induction. However, the ZL1 thus far has proven hugely robust WRT track use and heat and Ford is facing class action suit over GT350 overheating (trans, diff). 

[GoCougs]

And then the GT500 comes out and they are on equal hp terms at that gap disappears

Well, the GT500 has big shoes to fill as the last couple of incarnations weren't great cars.

Rumor is there will be an L88 Camaro with the ZR1's ~750 hp LT5.

[12,000 RPM]

Maybe. There's a reason that if given the chance a race team will stay clear of forced induction. However, the ZL1 thus far has proven hugely robust WRT track use and heat and Ford is facing class action suit over GT350 overheating (trans, diff).

Those lawsuits are bogus- they are from people who didn't get the track pack who took their cars to the track anyway. Meanwhile Z07 owners have got no respite from the LT4's heat management problems.

[CaminoRacer]

Those lawsuits are bogus- they are from people who didn't get the track pack who took their cars to the track anyway. Meanwhile Z07 owners have got no respite from the LT4's heat management problems.

I know plenty of Z07 owners who drive their cars very hard without issue. Seems like there's only a vocal minority with problems. Probably due to bad driving...

[MX793]

I know plenty of Z07 owners who drive their cars very hard without issue. Seems like there's only a vocal minority with problems. Probably due to bad driving...

Yeah, bad driving.  I guess that's why one overheated in Randy Pobst's hands.

[12,000 RPM]

Both C&D & Motor Trend had heat soak/cooling problems at the track. Maybe the owners you know aren't driving hard enough

[GoCougs]

C7 Z06/Z07 did have overheating problems but those have since been fixed. One also has to remember the Corvette is a tiny car - about the size of a Civic. The Camaro (and Mustang) are far larger.

[CaminoRacer]

Yeah, bad driving.  I guess that's why one overheated in Randy Pobst's hands.

I stand by my statement.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

C7 Z06/Z07 did have overheating problems but those have since been fixed. One also has to remember the Corvette is a tiny car - about the size of a Civic. The Camaro (and Mustang) are far larger.

THIS! And the ZL1 has even MORE radiators/intercoolers! I've never heard of a single one overheating! Same for Z06 after the cooling updates!

The Camaro makes significantly more power. That it can't walk away from the Mustang means those other variables you've mentioned aren't as well-sorted as they are in the Ford. 

I'm sure the ZL1 would pull away on a FASTER track! You Ford guys kill me! Y'all bring up cooling issues with a totally differant car (Z06), Claim y'all would buy the slower car based on LOOKS (GT) and Hope the GT500 (Which is only good in a straight line) will finally tame the 6th Gen Camaro. Lets face it! The GT350 was barely better than the Z28 and this new platform (And engines) is worlds better than Gen 5 Camaros! Take your ass whipping like a man and stop grasping for straws! The faster car should have won! PERIOD!

[FoMoJo]

Corvette Stingray

...and I raise you a Ford GT .

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

...and I raise you a Ford GT .

Blah! The Vette beat it too.......

[CaminoRacer]

...and I raise you a Ford GT .

Not for $70k!

[CaminoRacer]

THIS! And the ZL1 has even MORE radiators/intercoolers! I've never heard of a single one overheating! Same for Z06 after the cooling updates!
I'm sure the ZL1 would pull away on a FASTER track! You Ford guys kill me! Y'all bring up cooling issues with a totally differant car (Z06), Claim y'all would buy the slower car based on LOOKS (GT) and Hope the GT500 (Which is only good in a straight line) will finally tame the 6th Gen Camaro. Lets face it! The GT350 was barely better than the Z28 and this new platform (And engines) is worlds better than Gen 5 Camaros! Take your ass whipping like a man and stop grasping for straws! The faster car should have won! PERIOD!

Preach!

[GoCougs]

...and I raise you a Ford GT .

Let's wait for the 750 hp ZR1 .