Germany might start banning Euro 4, Euro 5 emissions vehicles

[Laconian]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-emissions/diesel-cars-can-be-banned-from-german-cities-court-rules-idUSKCN1GA2XD

Only 2.7 out of 15 million diesel cars on the road today would survive the ban.

[giant_mtb]

"France and Britain will ban new petrol and diesel cars by 2040."

Daaaaaamn.

[AutobahnSHO]

Interesting.



(is the Cougspocalypse upon us?!?!?!!!)

[Soup DeVille]

"France and Britain will ban new petrol and diesel cars by 2040."

Daaaaaamn.

I think predicting the energy situation 22 years down the road is an iffy proposition.

[MexicoCityM3]

2040 is far enough that any "ban" in my book is empty political posturing. A short term ban would really hit european brands.

[2o6]

RIP Europe.

[Xer0]

2040 is far enough that any "ban" in my book is empty political posturing. A short term ban would really hit european brands.

I think this is generally true.  Germany at minimum will not let its number 1 industry just flat out be outlawed on the continent.

[shp4man]

The death of the rattleboxes is nigh at hand! 

[12,000 RPM]

2040 is far enough that any "ban" in my book is empty political posturing. A short term ban would really hit european brands.

Agreed 100%. These politicians don't even know if they will survive their terms.

[Galaxy]

The problem in Germany are cities with air pollution problems. They are losing law suites left and right. Several options are being considered to tackle the problem including making public transportation "free."

[Laconian]

Who are the litigants in the law suits? People vs. cities? Cities vs. car companies? What are the claims?

[Galaxy]

Who are the litigants in the law suits? People vs. cities? Cities vs. car companies? What are the claims?

Individuals and groups are suing the cities demanding that pollution levels shall be kept below levels considered dangerous. For example for NO2 the average yearly limit considered safe is 40 micrograms per cubic meter.  Stuttgart in 2017 averaged 73, Munich 78. The courts have in all cases ruled that the cities need to get below that value. In most cases the cities have been given ~ 1 year to get the situation under control. Stuttgart is potentially facing fines of € 1 million per day if they fail.

[Laconian]

Wow. I can understand their desperation with the prospect of fines that steep. Yikes.

[mzziaz]

Yay, cheap diesels for me!

[veeman]

Having just returned from India, I found it difficult to breathe in New Delhi when in the car or outside. It's a whole nuther level of pollution but, previous to this trip I took clean air for granted.

Also China has put far more stringent regulations regarding future vehicle emissions (basically requiring electric vehicles) in a very short time interval. Also China is a very large market for German cars.

If VW, BMW, MB are forced to provide the Chinese market with "clean" cars it's going to extend to Europe.  Hasn't Volvo (basically a Chinese brand) already declared most future vehicles are electric?

[Laconian]

361 PM2.5 in New Delhi, holy cow!!!! R.I.P. environment

[veeman]

361 PM2.5 in New Delhi, holy cow!!!! R.I.P. environment

Yeah man it was terrible. Its a combination of farmers burning residual crops to clear their fields in neighboring states because they can't afford modern farming equipment, poor people burning biofuel (cow dung and twigs) to cook and keep warm in the winter months (housing in general doesn't have central heat and 55-60 deg F without central heat is damn chilly at night), increased number of polluting cars and trucks, interstate commerce having to travel through New Delhi because of a lack of city bypassing highways, and stagnant air related to climate/topography.  Unlike dictatorial China, you have often (like in the U.S.) parliamentary gridlock because of competing parties and corruption. 

As I've gone back every 3 to 7 years since birth to primarily visit relatives, life seems better mostly every time I've gone.  This time I saw less beggars and better organization/infrastructure. More wealth all around. But damn that air was nauseating in the capital. What should be a clear blue sky was a tan colored haze.   

[AutobahnSHO]

Individuals and groups are suing the cities demanding that pollution levels shall be kept below levels considered dangerous. For example for NO2 the average yearly limit considered safe is 40 micrograms per cubic meter.  Stuttgart in 2017 averaged 73, Munich 78. The courts have in all cases ruled that the cities need to get below that value. In most cases the cities have been given ~ 1 year to get the situation under control. Stuttgart is potentially facing fines of € 1 million per day if they fail.

It's not the cities that are polluting though- it's the people and the companies in the cities.

[Galaxy]

It's not the cities that are polluting though- it's the people and the companies in the cities.

Yes, but municipal governments are have obligation to enforce the law of the land, and currently they are turning a blind eye to a problem.

[AutobahnSHO]

Yes, but municipal governments are have obligation to enforce the law of the land, and currently they are turning a blind eye to a problem.

So local governments will force factories to stop producing? They will take older cars off the road?

Seems like a large burden of enforcement which should be handled at your Federal level (to me).

[Galaxy]

So local governments will force factories to stop producing? They will take older cars off the road?

Seems like a large burden of enforcement which should be handled at your Federal level (to me).

The federal level did drop the ball, especially wen it comes to car emissions. To my knowledge there have not (yet) been any lawsuits by cities against the Federal Government. For the moment there appears to be the intent to work together amicably. The Federal Government has come up with € 1 Billion to help air quality in the most affected cities, and is trying to arm twist the car industry to come up with 1/4 of that. Of course 1 Billion is probably only a drop in the bucket.

[r0tor]

I think I read Volvo made a statement they are no longer developing internal combustion engines.

[AutobahnSHO]

I think I read Volvo made a statement they are no longer developing internal combustion engines.

yup- going to need a trailer full of batteries on back with a charging cord to drive cross country...   

[cawimmer430]

People are pissed. Especially at this dumbass.

[shp4man]

LOL. 

[r0tor]

The biggest shame is ithink the electric car market needs at least another 10-15 years before it really should go mainstream.  There is a ton of development going on with supercapacitor battery banks - not only would they charge faster, last longer, and weigh less... But they also don't require the amount of rare metals to be stripped from the earth.

[AutobahnSHO]

The biggest shame is ithink the electric car market needs at least another 10-15 years before it really should go mainstream.  There is a ton of development going on with supercapacitor battery banks - not only would they charge faster, last longer, and weigh less... But they also don't require the amount of rare metals to be stripped from the earth.

??  It already is in mainstream. You can walk into most dealerships and buy an electric car.

Consumers usually pick ICE though.

[12,000 RPM]

People are pissed. Especially at this dumbass.

Well Wimmer, you are a big diesel fan. Explain why your aversion for gas stations should be considered more important than air quality.

[cawimmer430]

Well Wimmer, you are a big diesel fan. Explain why your aversion for gas stations should be considered more important than air quality.

You do know that gasoline cars also pollute, right?

From a minimalist point of view nobody needs to have fun while driving a car. Nobody. Fun in a car is irrational. A car should bring people from A to B efficiently and cheaply using as little fuel as possible while creating as little pollution as possible. That is the minimalist point of view. So all of those evil driving enthusiasts who bitch about diesels but then go for a pointless joy drive in their sports car, SUV or whatever on a road, track or in the city are a little hypocritical and needlessly contributing to air pollution.

Those same morons who want to ban diesels here also share that view about getting rid of sports cars, V8s and V12s and all the FUN THINGS that we as enthusiasts like and love. In fact they are already complaining about people needlessly going for drives in their cars.

Diesels are still great. I'll stand by that statement. You've experienced a modern diesel and you liked them.

[Galaxy]

Well this whole discussion has certainly brought fringe groups out of the caves, but the car industry could have avoided this debacle if they would have simply done their job properly.

Now that they are being scrutinized with a microscope they are getting their act together. For example the new Mercedes E220 Diesel produced only 7.5 mg/km of NOx under a real world driving test. The Euro 6d limits would actually allow 80 mg/km on the test bench and 168 mg/km in a real world test. Why did they not bring this result in the past? No magic fairy dust has been invented these last two years the technology has existed for several years. They just choose to bring mediocracy to the market.