EVs

[Laconian]

It's just a hoot having falconry enthusiasts and Irvine residents bitch about "elites". What does that term even mean to you guys, anyways? It feels like a dogwhistle term to me.

[NomisR]

It's just a hoot having falconry enthusiasts and Irvine residents bitch about "elites". What does that term even mean to you guys, anyways? It feels like a dogwhistle term to me.

It should be "elites" in quotes, because that's what they call themselves.  It's those that believes they rule over us plebs thinking we need to stop eating meat, stop driving cars,, stop flying in planes, stop living in big houses all in the name of climate change, at the same time they do it themselves. 

[GoCougs]

A new EV is cleaner than a new car over the life of the vehicle according to studies that look at the whole supply chain, manufacturing, and driving emissions (power plant emissions for EVs)

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

Talking about reducing consumption is a separate issue.

Like 80-90% of WtP, I, owing to the behavior of the elites and celebrities combined with Democrat/neocon warmongering (i.e., catastrophic use of the US military and the defense industry, the world's largest fossil fuel consuming entity and polluter in general), have no choice but to deny global warming, so sans global warming metrics, EV environmental "advantage" is in shifting smog (air pollution) from urban centers to rural US areas and Third World countries. Is that really what WtP should be doing?

lol of course WtP don't want to talk about limiting consumption! So many problems with it - from lack of virtue signalling to threatening the mythical American Dream. That doesn't obviate the facts/data/logic that global warming, if it existed, would be solved almost overnight with ZERO drama, hegemony, cost or delay buy WtP simply voluntarily and rationally controlling consumption. But, most people don't believe in global warming by definition, so here we are. Even so, rationally controlling consumption would solve a lot of legit environmental problems.

[GoCougs]

This part you said is not the answer because it goes against capitalism and human nature.  People strive to accumulate wealth so that they can live better lives (which includes buying a lot of stuff, living in bigger houses, and traveling the world or in the future traveling outer space).

No one realistically proposes that Americans quit using air conditioning where it's hot; quit constructing swimming pools, quit skiing where it's cold (it costs a ski resort between 500,000 and 3.5 million dollars a year to make snow), etc etc.  Combating climate change has to have realistic goals and telling people to buy compact cars, live in small houses or apartments without air conditioning, and not travel by plane or cruise ship is not realistic and not American 

Figuring out how to dump ICE vehicles for EV is actually a realistic goal.  We need more federal and state  govt incentives because right now there's not a financial incentive and few things work better for motivation than one's pocketbook.

Consumption is the exactly opposite of accumulating wealth, as much of WtP are to be (re)reminded of, as the housing market now starts its crash and legit inflation takes hold (which is probably 2-3x the official figure of 8%).

Let's look at the boondoggle of wind turbines. WHOOPS - blades only last a few years, and are not only not recyclable, are not biodegradable - they'll literally last THOUSANDS of years.

Man has been smart cookie for some time - wind power has been a thing for 2000+ years (10,000+ years if one includes sailing), but irrational government subsidies over sped the development, such that it's an environmental boondoggle.

[SJ_GTI]

It's just a hoot having falconry enthusiasts and Irvine residents bitch about "elites". What does that term even mean to you guys, anyways? It feels like a dogwhistle term to me.

I have noticed the same thing. 

I'm pretty sure I am one of the more liberal people on this forum so I assume they are talking about me? But I certainly don't have (or make) as much money as some of the more conservative folks on this board, nor do I have any kind of cultural influence.

I've also never heard anyone make the demands/claims that are often ascribed to these "elites" and I have never actually heard anyone refer to themselves as an "elite." When these types of things bleed into the non-political forums I always cringe a bit.

[GoCougs]

Give it a few more year, all of this will be serious suggestions by the elites all in the name of climate change.  Of course all of this will only apply to everyone but themselves.

WtP love our aristocracy even so.

[Soup DeVille]

I have noticed the same thing. 

I'm pretty sure I am one of the more liberal people on this forum so I assume they are talking about me? But I certainly don't have (or make) as much money as some of the more conservative folks on this board, nor do I have any kind of cultural influence.

I've also never heard anyone make the demands/claims that are often ascribed to these "elites" and I have never actually heard anyone refer to themselves as an "elite." When these types of things bleed into the non-political forums I always cringe a bit.

I usually read "elites" as "people in positions of influence whom I don't trust."

Which, I suppose is nearly everybody...

[MrH]

The ability to take enormous road trips must be an potent psychological safety blanket for some folks. It's a 1% use case that counterbalances the massive quality of life gains for the other 99% of uses.

I'll just take a 30 minute break on each of the 1-2 trips per year, it's fine.

That's definitely a big part of it.  The problem with just taking a 30 minute break...it's not always, consistently a 30 minute break.  You might get stuck with only chargers that are really slow.  Or the chargers might be broken.  Just lots of uncertainty.  You need a lot of time flexibility.

[NomisR]

I usually read "elites" as "people in positions of influence whom I don't trust."

Which, I suppose is nearly everybody...

Be it Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, those within the powers of government... I don't know if you've ever watched the movie 2012, but it would be those that would be deemed "worthy" of being on the Ark. 

[NomisR]

That's definitely a big part of it.  The problem with just taking a 30 minute break...it's not always, consistently a 30 minute break.  You might get stuck with only chargers that are really slow.  Or the chargers might be broken.  Just lots of uncertainty.  You need a lot of time flexibility.

It depends on the charging network but it's not a great issue with the supercharger network, "yet"... since you can see what's avaialble and what not.  Also you don't also have to charge to full as when you set the GPS, it would tell you to stop maybe after 2 hours for 10 mins of charging, which is good enough for a pee break. 

[Soup DeVille]

Be it Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, those within the powers of government... I don't know if you've ever watched the movie 2012, but it would be those that would be deemed "worthy" of being on the Ark. 

Of course I've seen that movie; its horrible, outlandish, poorly acted and utterly ridiculous.  Its everything I like in movies, except Debbie Harry.

[Laconian]

They rehabbed a gas station near me and are replacing it with a rapid charging station. They had to dig deep and truck out massive amounts of soil which took a surprising amount of time. In 20 years we're going to find out that under every gas station lurks a Superfund site.

[GoCougs]

That's definitely a big part of it.  The problem with just taking a 30 minute break...it's not always, consistently a 30 minute break.  You might get stuck with only chargers that are really slow.  Or the chargers might be broken.  Just lots of uncertainty.  You need a lot of time flexibility.

In the least, fast charging stations can be put virtually anywhere (provided there is big power available off the pole - pretty much everywhere but residential neighborhoods), and are infinitely cheaper to do so vs. the environmental hurdles with building gas stations. IOW, in the verrry unlikely event EVs achieve any sort of material market presence, there should be WAY more charging stations than gas stations (plus, WtP can of course charge at home and destinations, albeit usually at only L2).

[GoCougs]

I usually read "elites" as "people in positions of influence whom I don't trust."

Which, I suppose is nearly everybody...

"and whom are not subject to the same rules and laws as WtP."

[Morris Minor]

Hyundai is negotiating to build an EV plant near Savannah GA. The port facilities there probably weighed in its favor... yes it's second-tier after the west coast ports (wrong side of the Panama canal.) But it can handle the big stuff, useful for bringing in bits & bobs & shipping out finished product.

https://www.ajc.com/news/kias-parent-firm-planning-second-georgia-plant/LLYX2V2MSFHE7OZQZKWVX33RPA/

[Galaxy]

"To get to brass tacks, the Lightning is the best-driving, best-riding, and best-handling F-150 you can buy. The only reasons not to buy one over a gas- or diesel-powered F-150 are that you have nowhere to charge at home, you actually tow hundreds of miles at a time on a regular basis, or you simply don't like—or won't let yourself like—electric vehicles. All other reasons are invalid."

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-first-drive-review/

Wowsers!

[MrH]

I don't think I'd be able to snag an EV6 or Ioniq 5 for less than $5k over MSRP. 

I'm going to be spending at least $225/month on gas at least with the new job.  Not having to fill up or get oil changes, etc, is really sounding tempting.

Any thoughts on the Polestar 2?  I think it's cool looking, and if the Hyundai/Kia twins are going for over MSRP, this isn't a hateful idea anymore.  It's a bit smaller than I'd prefer, but we have the RDX in the garage too if I really need something bigger.  Not super keen on buying a Chinese made car, but there aren't a lot of options out there.  Android OS is interesting.

[CaminoRacer]

Polestar 2 seems interesting but I'd want to drive one before ordering

[MrH]

Apparently the closest Polestar "Space" (which I guess is just the fancy word for dealer now) is in Detroit??!

[NomisR]

I don't think I'd be able to snag an EV6 or Ioniq 5 for less than $5k over MSRP. 

I'm going to be spending at least $225/month on gas at least with the new job.  Not having to fill up or get oil changes, etc, is really sounding tempting.

Any thoughts on the Polestar 2?  I think it's cool looking, and if the Hyundai/Kia twins are going for over MSRP, this isn't a hateful idea anymore.  It's a bit smaller than I'd prefer, but we have the RDX in the garage too if I really need something bigger.  Not super keen on buying a Chinese made car, but there aren't a lot of options out there.  Android OS is interesting.

It seems like they're selling them for MSRP here in California, and the wait time is around 1 month according to my friend that's been shopping for a replacement for his Honda Clarity..  A lot of people are canceling their orders apparently.

Never thought about going to the "dark side"?

[MrH]

It seems like they're selling them for MSRP here in California, and the wait time is around 1 month according to my friend that's been shopping for a replacement for his Honda Clarity..  A lot of people are canceling their orders apparently.

Never thought about going to the "dark side"?

Zero interest.  If the model 3 was designed and built by a reputable OEM, that would be the obvious choice

[NomisR]

Zero interest.  If the model 3 was designed and built by a reputable OEM, that would be the obvious choice

lol, I get it.  I was in the same boat as you, but at least with the newer models, they fixed majority of the "issues" the car has compared to the early year models.. and i corrected what I didn't like with the car myself.. for regular driving, the Tesla with it's network probably makes EV usage the most palatable compared to other options.  I wouldn't be able to easily take the same trips that I had with the Tesla just due to the uncertainty of the other charging networks in comparison. 

Also, i'm surprised you'd still compare a Hyundai/Kia after your Genesis though.

[CaminoRacer]

Apparently the closest Polestar "Space" (which I guess is just the fancy word for dealer now) is in Detroit??!

Closest one to me is Denver IIRC. Kinda far for a test drive

[MrH]

lol, I get it.  I was in the same boat as you, but at least with the newer models, they fixed majority of the "issues" the car has compared to the early year models.. and i corrected what I didn't like with the car myself.. for regular driving, the Tesla with it's network probably makes EV usage the most palatable compared to other options.  I wouldn't be able to easily take the same trips that I had with the Tesla just due to the uncertainty of the other charging networks in comparison. 

Also, i'm surprised you'd still compare a Hyundai/Kia after your Genesis though.

Hyundai and Kia have improved a lot since my old Genesis was made.  Even the Genesis that came out immediately after mine, that was a huge step forward.

Yeah, I agree, Tesla's biggest advantage is their supercharger network.  Public charging is absolutely miserable, and Tesla's appears to be the only one worth using consistently.  It's all lost on me though.  I would be getting a Level 2 charger at the house, and driving 70 miles a day.  I doubt I'd ever use a public charger.

[Soup DeVille]

Apparently the closest Polestar "Space" (which I guess is just the fancy word for dealer now) is in Detroit??!

Legally, they can't be dealers.

[NomisR]

Hyundai and Kia have improved a lot since my old Genesis was made.  Even the Genesis that came out immediately after mine, that was a huge step forward.

Yeah, I agree, Tesla's biggest advantage is their supercharger network.  Public charging is absolutely miserable, and Tesla's appears to be the only one worth using consistently.  It's all lost on me though.  I would be getting a Level 2 charger at the house, and driving 70 miles a day.  I doubt I'd ever use a public charger.

I can't get over the 2 small screen into one to make it look panoramic on the dash on the Hyundai/Kia twins, it makes it look cheap compared to 2 separate screens. 

I don't normally use public charging unless it's free, but having that available is nice, you can take 100+ mile trips and not have to worry about it, or drive slow to save on range.

[veeman]

I don't think I'd be able to snag an EV6 or Ioniq 5 for less than $5k over MSRP. 

I'm going to be spending at least $225/month on gas at least with the new job.  Not having to fill up or get oil changes, etc, is really sounding tempting.

Any thoughts on the Polestar 2?  I think it's cool looking, and if the Hyundai/Kia twins are going for over MSRP, this isn't a hateful idea anymore.  It's a bit smaller than I'd prefer, but we have the RDX in the garage too if I really need something bigger.  Not super keen on buying a Chinese made car, but there aren't a lot of options out there.  Android OS is interesting.

Personally I wouldn't get a Polestar if the nearest place to get it serviced/fixed is far away (more than an hour's drive).  Too much of a pain in the ass.  Unless Polestar offers free pickup and delivery. 

I'd consider a Prius.  53 mpg highway.  Save yourself a lot of money and hassle   Eventually when things settle a bit in the car market, and if you're still at this job with long commute, then get an EV.  Maybe the electric Ford F-150. 

[AutobahnSHO]

Legally, they can't be dealers.

Yup. Watch for all kinds of creative "non-dealers" to pop up.

It's like the 1910-1920 all over again.

Speaking of, saw an article that adjusting for inflation, Maverick is cheaper than model T.

[Morris Minor]

Hyundai and Kia have improved a lot since my old Genesis was made.  Even the Genesis that came out immediately after mine, that was a huge step forward.

Yeah, I agree, Tesla's biggest advantage is their supercharger network.  Public charging is absolutely miserable, and Tesla's appears to be the only one worth using consistently.  It's all lost on me though.  I would be getting a Level 2 charger at the house, and driving 70 miles a day.  I doubt I'd ever use a public charger.

They're going to add CCS to their superchargers - so it might be feasible to go to the dark side in an emergency.
https://electrek.co/2022/05/10/tesla-add-ccs-connectors-supercharger-stations-us-elon-musk/
I wonder where it will all end up in terms of charging standards. Non-Tesla charging is highly variable: lots of stories of horrible design or  people driving up to charge stations on fumes and finding a broken shitshow. But CCS is a standard...

[CaminoRacer]

They're going to add CCS to their superchargers - so it might be feasible to go to the dark side in an emergency.
https://electrek.co/2022/05/10/tesla-add-ccs-connectors-supercharger-stations-us-elon-musk/
I wonder where it will all end up in terms of charging standards. Non-Tesla charging is highly variable: lots of stories of horrible design or  people driving up to charge stations on fumes and finding a broken shitshow. But CCS is a standard...

It's not CCS that's the problem. It's a lack of maintenance by charging station owners. A lot of non-Tesla chargers aren't actually owned by the charging network, and the property owners just don't bother to fix them because they're like $50k to install and have a 2 year maintenance plan but after the 2 years it'll cost a ton of money to fix when it breaks.

Electrify America seems to be one of the better networks that actually tries to maintain their stuff