EVs

[Soup DeVille]

But don't forget the speakers that need to be louder than the ear exploding exhaust

...on the subject, I lost safety bonus money a few years at the power plant because harley owners repeatedly flunked their hearing tests - which turns into an OSHA recordable incident.

Safety bonus money is a scam that should be illegal anyways; its paying people to not report accidents.

[r0tor]

Safety bonus money is a scam that should be illegal anyways; its paying people to not report accidents.

You don't want to know the amount of manager training I received of how to talk to clinic doctors to avoid reportable injuries

[AutobahnSHO]

Actually the neighbor of my parents in Mühldorf am Inn has a Harley-Davidson bike. He's a teacher and uses it to get to work. However, when he leaves in the morning he pushes the Harley out of his garage and towards the end of the street before starting it. It's loud as hell, but hey, cool sound!

That's admirably nice of him.

Here 99.9999% of them start it up and rev it a ton to make sure the entire town knows they have a Harley.

[Soup DeVille]

You don't want to know the amount of manager training I received of how to talk to clinic doctors to avoid reportable injuries

Oh, I've been exposed to enough of that "training" to form an opinion of it at least.

[Morris Minor]

That's admirably nice of him.

Here 99.9999% of them start it up and rev it a ton to make sure the entire town knows they have a Harley.

Harley riders also like the town to know about their arse-cracks, separating enormous pimply hairy buttocks.
The men are equally unattractive.

[cawimmer430]

That's admirably nice of him.

Here 99.9999% of them start it up and rev it a ton to make sure the entire town knows they have a Harley.

There's a growing movement in eco-retard Merkel-Germany to get motorcycle usage banned on weekends and holidays, primarily due to noise complaints and of course the super duper evil CO2 bla bla bla. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

There's a growing movement in eco-retard Merkel-Germany to get motorcycle usage banned on weekends and holidays, primarily due to noise complaints and of course the super duper evil CO2 bla bla bla. 

What about scooters!?

[cawimmer430]

What about scooters!?

The proposed ban will most likely also include scooters.

The idiot Greens are on the rise in this deranged country and they are making no secret of their fetishes to ban cars and motorcycles and have completely car-free cities.

Just two days ago they demanded a stop to the construction of new Autobahns and roads. They want a car-free Germany and a literal ban on individual mobility via car. 

[shp4man]

Wimmer, these people never give up. Anything is fair game to them. Lies, cheating, deception. Their goofy progressive religion is an infection of the mind.

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, these people never give up. Anything is fair game to them. Lies, cheating, deception. Their goofy progressive religion is an infection of the mind.

I make no secret of my utter hate of the Greens, especially since they have nothing to do with protecting the environment. They are radical communists akin to the Khmer Rouge. They want to shape a new German society and tell us how to live. Currently they're destroying our language and the way we speak with this gender gaga insanity.

Watch Germany destroy itself next year in September. We will get the Greens in the government. RIP, Germany.

[Morris Minor]

This sets out the decision landscape pretty well I think. I would add the intangible nerdy enjoyment factor that comes with a cool EV.
https://youtu.be/5gCXv0XTOi0

[FoMoJo]

Thought the name was clever...EV 'mad scientist' builds a Voltswagen

[Morris Minor]

Nerding out that Tesla has the edge.
https://youtu.be/GIavEMAdhiY

[afty]

I recently took a road trip from the Bay Area, CA, to San Diego, CA, in my Model 3, 460 miles each way.  Since there's a lot of curiosity about road tripping in an EV, I thought I would share a trip report.  I would have posted this in the Tesla thread, but that just seems to be a giant flame war, so I'll try here instead.

First piece of advice: Use abetterrouteplanner.com to plan your stops.  It optimizes for total trip time and helps you pick good charging stops. It also does very accurate range estimates that take into account elevation change, weather conditions, your specific car and trim level, etc.  You can set options like your departure charge level, the minimum charge level you're comfortable with, etc. There's an in-car route planner that's part of the nav system, but it doesn't have nearly as much configurability as A Better Route Planner.

Second piece of advice: Choose a hotel that has on-site, free charging. TripAdvisor lets you search by EV charging support.  This makes the trip super easy -- you can pull into the hotel on fumes and charge for free overnight, and you can keep charging for free as you drive around town.

Details

Outbound

Stop #1: Kettleman City Supercharger.  This is one of the largest EV charging stations in the world with 40 chargers, including a number of "v3" Superchargers that can charge at up to 250 kW.  It even has a lounge with a barista that was unfortunately closed due to COVID.  We grabbed fast food at a nearby drive through, then plugged in and ate at one of the picnic tables provided there. 

Distance traveled: 180 miles
Charge percentage: 34% -> 85%
Charging time: 25 minutes
Energy added: 42 kWh
Cost: $11.76





Stop #2: Lakewood Blvd Supercharger, Downey, CA.  This is an "urban Supercharger" with a relatively low max charge rate of 72 kW.  It was in the parking lot of a strip mall.  We used the bathroom at a nearby McDonalds and grabbed an ice cream cone.

Distance traveled: 180 miles
Charge percentage: 18% -> 48%
Charging time: 25 minutes
Energy added: 24 kWh
Cost: $7.20

Stop #3: Hotel. We pulled into the hotel with about 11% battery remaining.  We plugged into one of the free Tesla Destination chargers and charged up to 80% overnight.

Distance traveled: 100 miles
Charge at arrival: 11%

Inbound

Stop #1: Lakewood Blvd Supercharger, Downey, CA.  The food options looked good here, so we stopped for brunch on the way back.  We didn't need much charge, so the time spent here was just enough for us to eat and use the bathroom.  I saved time by putting in a mobile order on the way, so that the food was ready when we arrived.  Note that the charge rate was slower than the last time we charged here.  That's because charging rate slows when the battery is full.

Distance traveled: 100 miles
Charge percentage: 66% -> 97%
Charging time: 40 minutes
Energy added: 23 kWh
Cost: $6.90

Stop #2: Supercharger at Harris Ranch. There's a giant cattle ranch here and a fancy restaurant, but it wasn't mealtime when we arrived so we crossed to the gas station across the way, used the bathroom, and ate a snack. They were in the process of adding 6 Electrify America chargers here in addition to the 18 Tesla chargers.





Distance traveled: 210 miles
Charge percentage: 15% -> 70%
Charging time: 30 minutes
Energy added: 40 kWh
Cost: $11.20

Stop #3: Home.

Distance traveled: 150 miles
Charge at arrival: 12%

Final Stats
Total miles: 1062
kWh consumed: 285
Efficiency: 268 Wh/mi (compared to the EPA rating of 273 Wh/mi highway)
"Fuel" Costs: $37.06 (not including free charging at hotel)

[AutobahnSHO]

Cool write-up.

It's "possible" to go anywhere EV now but can you imagine driving 200 miles at a time between full charges across I-80 in Wyoming?... That would take forever.

Gas cars take about 8 hours?..

[Eye of the Tiger]

For some reason, I thought charging would even cheaper than that.

[Raza]

That's admirably nice of him.

Here 99.9999% of them start it up and rev it a ton to make sure the entire town knows they have a Harley.

How else are people going to know they ride a Harley if they don't rev it constantly and have a Harley branded jacket and a Harley coffee mug and a Harley edition pickup truck?

[Raza]

I recently took a road trip from the Bay Area, CA, to San Diego, CA, in my Model 3, 460 miles each way.  Since there's a lot of curiosity about road tripping in an EV, I thought I would share a trip report.  I would have posted this in the Tesla thread, but that just seems to be a giant flame war, so I'll try here instead.

First piece of advice: Use abetterrouteplanner.com to plan your stops.  It optimizes for total trip time and helps you pick good charging stops. It also does very accurate range estimates that take into account elevation change, weather conditions, your specific car and trim level, etc.  You can set options like your departure charge level, the minimum charge level you're comfortable with, etc. There's an in-car route planner that's part of the nav system, but it doesn't have nearly as much configurability as A Better Route Planner.

Second piece of advice: Choose a hotel that has on-site, free charging. TripAdvisor lets you search by EV charging support.  This makes the trip super easy -- you can pull into the hotel on fumes and charge for free overnight, and you can keep charging for free as you drive around town.

Details

Outbound

Stop #1: Kettleman City Supercharger.  This is one of the largest EV charging stations in the world with 40 chargers, including a number of "v3" Superchargers that can charge at up to 250 kW.  It even has a lounge with a barista that was unfortunately closed due to COVID.  We grabbed fast food at a nearby drive through, then plugged in and ate at one of the picnic tables provided there. 

Distance traveled: 180 miles
Charge percentage: 34% -> 85%
Charging time: 25 minutes
Energy added: 42 kWh
Cost: $11.76





Stop #2: Lakewood Blvd Supercharger, Downey, CA.  This is an "urban Supercharger" with a relatively low max charge rate of 72 kW.  It was in the parking lot of a strip mall.  We used the bathroom at a nearby McDonalds and grabbed an ice cream cone.

Distance traveled: 180 miles
Charge percentage: 18% -> 48%
Charging time: 25 minutes
Energy added: 24 kWh
Cost: $7.20

Stop #3: Hotel. We pulled into the hotel with about 11% battery remaining.  We plugged into one of the free Tesla Destination chargers and charged up to 80% overnight.

Distance traveled: 150 miles
Charge at arrival: 11%

Inbound

Stop #1: Lakewood Blvd Supercharger, Downey, CA.  The food options looked good here, so we stopped for brunch on the way back.  We didn't need much charge, so the time spent here was just enough for us to eat and use the bathroom.  I saved time by putting in a mobile order on the way, so that the food was ready when we arrived.  Note that the charge rate was slower than the last time we charged here.  That's because charging rate slows when the battery is full.

Distance traveled: 100 miles
Charge percentage: 66% -> 97%
Charging time: 40 minutes
Energy added: 23 kWh
Cost: $6.90

Stop #2: Supercharger at Harris Ranch. There's a giant cattle ranch here and a fancy restaurant, but it wasn't mealtime when we arrived so we crossed to the gas station across the way, used the bathroom, and ate a snack. They were in the process of adding 6 Electrify America chargers here in addition to the 18 Tesla chargers.





Distance traveled: 210 miles
Charge percentage: 15% -> 70%
Charging time: 30 minutes
Energy added: 40 kWh
Cost: $11.20

Stop #3: Home.

Distance traveled: 150 miles
Charge at arrival: 12%

Final Stats
Total miles: 1062
kWh consumed: 285
Efficiency: 268 Wh/mi (compared to the EPA rating of 273 Wh/mi highway)
"Fuel" Costs: $37.06 (not including free charging at hotel)

So, that's like ~10 hours of charge time, plus the time it took from 12% when you arrived home and starting charging again? Another 8-10 hours? So ~1 day of charging? (Okay, maybe 1 day is unfair, but around 18-20 hours)

That's probably 5 years worth of fueling time spent on charging for this one trip. And your car dictated the route you could take and the hotel where you could stay. That's insane to me. Who thinks this is a better solution that hydrogen fuel cells? 

[MrH]

I only view electric cars are secondary cars currently.  I've considered them, but I have to have a gas vehicle for longer trips basically.

[Morris Minor]

Great write up. It may be fake info, but I read that if you let the built-in nav system plot the route, it minimizes charge times: priming the batteries, warming them so they're at the best temp when you arrive at each supercharger. Also it doesn't fill to the brim every time - does what it needs for a minimal journey time.

We just got back from a bed & breakfast - out in the boondocks - rural mountain area - they had two EV charge points. Impressive. No one was using them - but it's the thought that counts.

[FoMoJo]

It makes senses that EVs, and the infrastructure to support them, will be part of the next economic growth cycle.

[Laconian]

That's probably 5 years worth of fueling time spent on charging for this one trip. And your car dictated the route you could take and the hotel where you could stay. That's insane to me. Who thinks this is a better solution that hydrogen fuel cells? 

And then think of all the fueling that he _doesn't_ do 95% of the time, when he's parked at home. It's probably a wash.

[afty]

Great write up. It may be fake info, but I read that if you let the built-in nav system plot the route, it minimizes charge times: priming the batteries, warming them so they're at the best temp when you arrive at each supercharger. Also it doesn't fill to the brim every time - does what it needs for a minimal journey time.

That's correct.  It does make different tradeoffs than A Better Route Planner -- it optimizes for fewer charging sessions vs. shorter trip time.  It's also not as configurable.  For me, I like having some idea of when and where I'm going to stop before getting in the car, so I can plan meals, etc. 

It'll do the battery prewarming if you set a Supercharger as your destination.  It typically starts 10-15 minutes before you arrive, though if it's hot outside it may not be needed.  I don't recall it prewarming before my Harris Ranch stop since it was 95 degrees outside.

[afty]

So, that's like ~10 hours of charge time, plus the time it took from 12% when you arrived home and starting charging again? Another 8-10 hours? So ~1 day of charging? (Okay, maybe 1 day is unfair, but around 18-20 hours)

That's probably 5 years worth of fueling time spent on charging for this one trip. And your car dictated the route you could take and the hotel where you could stay. That's insane to me. Who thinks this is a better solution that hydrogen fuel cells? 

I assume you're counting the time I spent sleeping as fueling time.  Why do you think it makes sense to do that?

The point about charging stations dictating my stops and hotel choice is fair.  I had to do more planning than I would have in an ICE car.  But I'm both a planner and an early adopter, so I kind of enjoyed it.

The route wasn't an issue since I would have taken the same route anyway; it's not accidental that the chargers are located on the most common routes between big cities.

[Raza]

I assume you're counting the time I spent sleeping as fueling time.  Why do you think it makes sense to do that?

It's charge time. And it's time you have to worry about whether the engine will fully charge or whether someone might unplug the car as a nasty little prank. And it still only charged to 80%.

The point about charging stations dictating my stops and hotel choice is fair.  I had to do more planning than I would have in an ICE car.  But I'm both a planner and an early adopter, so I kind of enjoyed it.

The route wasn't an issue since I would have taken the same route anyway; it's not accidental that the chargers are located on the most common routes between big cities.

Still, when hydrogen fuel cells can theoretically use existing gas station infrastructure and fills at the same speed as gas, without the same possible battery degradation issues as EVs, why are we wasting so much time and money on EVs?

[Raza]

And then think of all the fueling that he _doesn't_ do 95% of the time, when he's parked at home. It's probably a wash.

I don't fuel up when I'm parked either, don't know what that means.

[Laconian]

I don't fuel up when I'm parked either, don't know what that means.

You visit gas stations at random times throughout the year. afty just goes home.

[cawimmer430]

That was a good and interesting write-up, Afty. You also stated that you're an early-adapter of new technology, so I can understand why you like your EV. 

But count me in as one of those people who views EVs with a little skepticism. I think the breakthrough for EVs will only come when:

1) They become affordable (which also includes the cost of a new battery)

2) Their range increases

3) Their recharging times decrease to levels of ICE cars


For me it's very simple. People are used to gasoline and diesel cars: they can be quickly refueled and their fuels have a very high energy density resulting in high ranges. A high range and quick refueling are practical and to me also a symbol of freedom (less time spent stopping and charging).

On an EV, I kinda want all the range I can get. I might not need the full range which an EV has to offer but what's the harm in having more range? The more range it has the better: because range is akin to more freedom and means less charging (and therefore less waiting).

Also, EV range drops like a rock when you require the A/C / heating system to deliver. And what if I want to drive fast on the Autobahn (I've noticed that on the Model 3s I've driven on the Autobahn that the battery levels drop rapidly when you drive faster than 120 km/h for extended periods)? Driving at a steady 120 km/h on the Autobahn is hell on earth for me, because it's slow and because I find cruising at a faster 140-150 km/h more enjoyable and the fuel economy is only slightly worse at those speeds than if I were cruising at 120 km/h. So more range is better for a number of reasons. And if the energy density can't be increased in batteries, then as an alternative the charging times need to be drastically decreased. 5-10 minutes for a full charge would be acceptable. More stops due to less range, but faster charging to full would make up for it. This needs to happen because if the number of EVs on the roads increase, more charging stations will be occupied etc.

I've seen many comments on German websites from people who basically don't care what powers their car: as long as the range and refueling times are high and short respectively. So once EVs do better in this area, I think that could help them succeed. And of course the battery life - which really depends on always charging to 80% IIRC and slow charging.

I also believe there should be more research and investment into SYNTHETIC FUELS and HYDROGEN. The future will probably be mixed: people who can only afford old ICE cars can use them with synthetic fuels for example. Synthetic fuels can also be used for air travel. Hydrogen has its own set of benefits and challenges. I know that synthetic fuels and hydrogen require a lot of energy to produce - but that should not matter if the energy used is A) nuclear or B) regenerative. The excess energy produced by regenerative power sources for example could be used to produce synthetic fuels and hydrogen.

Just my two cents. I'm not knocking your Model 3 by the way, I just feel that EVs still have a long way to go before they can fulfill the needs of every driver out there. 

[CaminoRacer]

You charge while eating lunch, going to the bathroom, etc. Most of the time you can combine the time with something you would be doing anyway. And overnight charging is certainly easier than having to stop at a gas station in the morning before you hit the road again.

[Laconian]

Don't you smoke, Raza? You can smoke while you charge, don't have to worry about igniting gasoline.