Nissan teases a buttload of new cars, including Z

[Raza]

No manual. No contest. Z.

Agreed.

[r0tor]

Manuals are dead and what ones exist are largely trash

[MX793]

Walkaround

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uax0JxzbUzY

[Laconian]

Manuals are dead and what ones exist are largely trash

Miata

[MX793]

Miata

The Tremec in the Camaro and GT350 (and Mach1) is quite good.  The MT-82 in lesser Mustangs is OK (unless you are a drag racer).  The Frisbee twins are pretty good, from what I hear.  Most FWD econocars are OK.  Maybe not ultra snickety great, but certainly not unpleasant.

The only "trash" MT I've ever driven was the Genesis Coupe.  The biggest issue was the light-switch clutch and overly aggressive initial throttle tip in, but the shifter itself was pretty notchy and high effort.

[r0tor]

The best manuals are in rather lightweight front engine rear wheel drive cars - which is limited basically now to the MX5 and frisbee.  The RX8 which shared a layout with the S2000 and Miata was about as good as it gets - short throws and the shifter in your hand is directly controlling the forks in the transmission (you can actually fill the manual transmission fluid if you remove the shifter boot).  It's a rifle bolt precise setup.

Tremecs in muscle cars feel industrial grade.  BMWs are always rubbery.  FWD cars all have linkages or cables which all feel crappy.


A good DCT or ZF is is better than an average or worse manual.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Honda Accords used to have amazing gear shifters.

[MrH]

The best manuals are in rather lightweight front engine rear wheel drive cars - which is limited basically now to the MX5 and frisbee.  The RX8 which shared a layout with the S2000 and Miata was about as good as it gets - short throws and the shifter in your hand is directly controlling the forks in the transmission (you can actually fill the manual transmission fluid if you remove the shifter boot).  It's a rifle bolt precise setup.

Tremecs in muscle cars feel industrial grade.  BMWs are always rubbery.  FWD cars all have linkages or cables which all feel crappy.


A good DCT or ZF is is better than an average or worse manual.

Have you driven any FWD Honda manual?  They're pretty much all great.

[r0tor]

Not as good as an s2000

[MrH]

I mean if your bar is one of the greatest feeling manuals ever, then ok, everything sucks.

[Soup DeVille]

Not as good as an s2000

This is an unrealistic and elitist bar to apply to every manual sold.

The Tremecs are fine. Nearly all manuals not in medium duty trucks or larger made in the last 20 years are perfectly fine.

[MX793]

The best manuals are in rather lightweight front engine rear wheel drive cars - which is limited basically now to the MX5 and frisbee.  The RX8 which shared a layout with the S2000 and Miata was about as good as it gets - short throws and the shifter in your hand is directly controlling the forks in the transmission (you can actually fill the manual transmission fluid if you remove the shifter boot).  It's a rifle bolt precise setup.

Tremecs in muscle cars feel industrial grade.  BMWs are always rubbery.  FWD cars all have linkages or cables which all feel crappy.


A good DCT or ZF is is better than an average or worse manual.

Have you driven any of the latest generation muscle/pony cars?

Honestly, the RX8 shifter didn't feel much better to me than the latest MT82 Mustangs.  Throws might have been the slightest bit shorter on the Mazda, but both are tight shift patterns with similar effort.

[r0tor]

I mean if your bar is one of the greatest feeling manuals ever, then ok, everything sucks.

As I said, a good DCT or ZF 8 speed is as good or as rewarding as an average or worse manual... So yea, I hold things to a high standard because modern automatics are amazing

[veeman]

I've had two manual shift yourself cars, a Beetle and my current Crosstrek.  They're both nothing great.  I've also driven some pretty good automatics.  My brother in law used to own an S5 with a dual clutch automated manual (S-tronic) and in sport mode that car was a hoot. 

There's something about "the process" of shifting through the gears of an old school manual that I find very gratifying however.  I also love that the car is mine and mine alone to drive because my wife can't drive it   

There are two times I wish I had an autotragic transmission. When it's stop and go traffic for a long time and when I'm trying to get going from a stop in deep snow (like if I park my car outside in my driveway and it snowed a lot overnight).   I find it hard to finesse the clutch, gas pedal, and shifts so that I don't start burning my clutch. 

[MX793]

I've had two manual shift yourself cars, a Beetle and my current Crosstrek.  They're both nothing great.  I've also driven some pretty good automatics.  My brother in law used to own an S5 with a dual clutch automated manual (S-tronic) and in sport mode that car was a hoot. 

There's something about "the process" of shifting through the gears of an old school manual that I find very gratifying however.  I also love that the car is mine and mine alone to drive because my wife can't drive it   

There are two times I wish I had an autotragic transmission. When it's stop and go traffic for a long time and when I'm trying to get going from a stop in deep snow (like if I park my car outside in my driveway and it snowed a lot overnight).   I find it hard to finesse the clutch, gas pedal, and shifts so that I don't start burning my clutch. 

I have a couple of complaints with automatics and automated manuals (SMGs, DSG, etc) based on the examples I've driven.  And, interestingly, my preference for a manual transmission actually has little to do with the "fun and engagement" of moving a shift lever through the gates.

1.  Automatics aren't clairvoyant, nor are they aware of road conditions.  They can't see that there's a sharp corner approaching and they should just hold the gear they are in, or that the incline that the car has encountered is short and there's no reason to downshift for more power because they'll be over the hump in a few seconds, or that the road is icy and a downshift will overload the tires.  They frequently do the opposite of what I want in a given situation when left to their own devices.  This includes upshifting or downshifting when I want them to stay in the gear they are in, which in turn results in the car either hesitating to accelerate and/or some herky-jerky gear hunting.  To a degree, some of this (unintended downshifts, in particular) can probably be mitigated by familiarity and adjusting driving style to the car.

2.  Lack of control when taking off from a standing start.  This becomes especially apparent in slick/snowy conditions.  I grew up driving manuals, without traction control, in the snow.  I never even bothered with snow tires.  I won't say it was as easy as driving on dry pavement, but I never got stuck anywhere.  I would frequently hear people complain that their FWD car, with traction control, was "not very good in the snow" and that they needed AWD.  I always thought it was hyperbole or that these people were just bad drivers.  I'd see people with 2WD vehicles in traffic frantically spinning their tires in bad weather when trying to take off from a stop, while I was able to roll away with little wheelspin.  Never got it, until I bought a winter car with an automatic.  I get it now.  It's actually harder to take off from a stop with an automatic in slick/snowy conditions without spinning the tires.  Even in dry conditions, I find it easier to dial up exactly the right launch aggressiveness I want with a manual than in an automatic, be it wanting to dart off the line quickly to beat traffic, a hard launch at the drag strip or track, or a gentle roll-away because I have bags of groceries in the trunk that I don't want to tip over.

I have other complaints specific to examples I've driven, such as sluggish responses, or non-response, to manual inputs, but recognize that most of the examples I've driven are not the creme de la creme of auto-shifting gearboxes and that better examples don't have some of those issues.  The DSG I drove was actually quite good with respect to responsiveness to commands.  However, the above two issues hold true for all of them.


EDIT:  I will also add that for track use, where I'm trying to get the maximum performance and set the fastest lap time, I actually would prefer a "good" 2-pedal setup to a traditional manual.  And by "good" I mean something that is responsive to commands and doesn't do anything unless the driver tells it to, that includes riding the rev limiter instead of automatically upshifting.

[Laconian]

My MIL's Renault Captur has one of the worst manuals I've ever used. You move the rubbery shifter into the rough vicinity of the gear you want, pray to 6MT Jesus that the gears successfully meshed, and then you disengage the clutch. At that point there is a _possibility_ that you can resume accelerating. The shifter detents are super vague and the clutch disengages very high on the pedal travel. Echh.

I do love coming home and driving the Miata afterward.

[r0tor]

I have a couple of complaints with automatics and automated manuals (SMGs, DSG, etc) based on the examples I've driven.  And, interestingly, my preference for a manual transmission actually has little to do with the "fun and engagement" of moving a shift lever through the gates.

1.  Automatics aren't clairvoyant, nor are they aware of road conditions.  They can't see that there's a sharp corner approaching and they should just hold the gear they are in, or that the incline that the car has encountered is short and there's no reason to downshift for more power because they'll be over the hump in a few seconds, or that the road is icy and a downshift will overload the tires.  They frequently do the opposite of what I want in a given situation when left to their own devices.  This includes upshifting or downshifting when I want them to stay in the gear they are in, which in turn results in the car either hesitating to accelerate and/or some herky-jerky gear hunting.  To a degree, some of this (unintended downshifts, in particular) can probably be mitigated by familiarity and adjusting driving style to the car.

2.  Lack of control when taking off from a standing start.  This becomes especially apparent in slick/snowy conditions.  I grew up driving manuals, without traction control, in the snow.  I never even bothered with snow tires.  I won't say it was as easy as driving on dry pavement, but I never got stuck anywhere.  I would frequently hear people complain that their FWD car, with traction control, was "not very good in the snow" and that they needed AWD.  I always thought it was hyperbole or that these people were just bad drivers.  I'd see people with 2WD vehicles in traffic frantically spinning their tires in bad weather when trying to take off from a stop, while I was able to roll away with little wheelspin.  Never got it, until I bought a winter car with an automatic.  I get it now.  It's actually harder to take off from a stop with an automatic in slick/snowy conditions without spinning the tires.  Even in dry conditions, I find it easier to dial up exactly the right launch aggressiveness I want with a manual than in an automatic, be it wanting to dart off the line quickly to beat traffic, a hard launch at the drag strip or track, or a gentle roll-away because I have bags of groceries in the trunk that I don't want to tip over.

I have other complaints specific to examples I've driven, such as sluggish responses, or non-response, to manual inputs, but recognize that most of the examples I've driven are not the creme de la creme of auto-shifting gearboxes and that better examples don't have some of those issues.  The DSG I drove was actually quite good with respect to responsiveness to commands.  However, the above two issues hold true for all of them.


EDIT:  I will also add that for track use, where I'm trying to get the maximum performance and set the fastest lap time, I actually would prefer a "good" 2-pedal setup to a traditional manual.  And by "good" I mean something that is responsive to commands and doesn't do anything unless the driver tells it to, that includes riding the rev limiter instead of automatically upshifting.

Doesn't sound like you drove anything worth a damn  with a manual mode then

[MX793]

Doesn't sound like you drove anything worth a damn  with a manual mode then

I've driven a DSG and the manual mode was very good.  I've not driven the new ZF 8 speed, no idea what the manual mode is like.  Most autos I've driven with manumatics were either older or not in sporty/performance vehicles.  However, as noted, responsiveness to commands is not my main complaint, because I recognize not all 2-pedal setups are that way.

A good manual mode does not address my enumerated complaints.  Maybe you can argue that simply leaving it in "M" addresses item 1, but item 2 is an issue for anything without a third pedal.

[afty]

I had an '02 Altima with the worst manual. It was like moving a screwdriver through a bowl of rocks.

I do enjoy a good manual, but I don't like how it's so difficult to take off quickly from a stop without jerking your head in the 1-2 shift. Maybe I'm a terrible manual driver, I don't know.

[Laconian]

I had an '02 Altima with the worst manual. It was like moving a screwdriver through a bowl of rocks.

I do enjoy a good manual, but I don't like how it's so difficult to take off quickly from a stop without jerking your head in the 1-2 shift. Maybe I'm a terrible manual driver, I don't know.

Maybe all the MTs you've driven have had too big of a ratio spread between 1st and 2nd?

[2o6]

Hyperbole like this is killing automotive enthusiasm, a car does not have to be perfect to be enjoyable and insistance of that being the case IMO makes people perpetually dissatisfied.


(See: Subaru BRZ)

[CaminoRacer]

I prefer an automatic with full shifting control for driving fast/autocross. And a good torque converter. I'm actually gonna swap an overdrive automatic into the El Camino this winter... helps in autocross to not have to worry about the transmission/clutch at all. As long as the gear ratios are good and the converter has a good high stall to give you nice torque out of the corners. And doesn't shift on its own

[Eye of the Tiger]

I prefer an automatic with full shifting control for driving fast/autocross. And a good torque converter. I'm actually gonna swap an overdrive automatic into the El Camino this winter... helps in autocross to not have to worry about the transmission/clutch at all. As long as the gear ratios are good and the converter has a good high stall to give you nice torque out of the corners. And doesn't shift on its own

Yes, the best automatic will have optional full manual control of shifting and torque converter lockup.

[MX793]

I prefer an automatic with full shifting control for driving fast/autocross. And a good torque converter. I'm actually gonna swap an overdrive automatic into the El Camino this winter... helps in autocross to not have to worry about the transmission/clutch at all. As long as the gear ratios are good and the converter has a good high stall to give you nice torque out of the corners. And doesn't shift on its own

Most courses I've run on, outside of the initial 1-2 upshift, you can just leave the car in second gear.  We've had a few faster venues where, in my car, I needed 3rd.  Usually it's the last stretch before the finish line, so I don't have to worry about a downshift during the run.  We ran on an actual road course last year with a few cones to keep speeds down on the straights, and there were multiple places where I had to grab 3rd, then back down to 2nd.  Wished I'd had a 2-pedal for those events.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Most courses I've run on, outside of the initial 1-2 upshift, you can just leave the car in second gear.  We've had a few faster venues where, in my car, I needed 3rd.  Usually it's the last stretch before the finish line, so I don't have to worry about a downshift during the run.  We ran on an actual road course last year with a few cones to keep speeds down on the straights, and there were multiple places where I had to grab 3rd, then back down to 2nd.  Wished I'd had a 2-pedal for those events.

Next time, just change your rear end to suit the course.

[MX793]

Next time, just change your rear end to suit the course.

I've actually toyed with the idea of switching the rear-end gear to 3.55s or even 3.31.  My second gear, with my race tire (slightly smaller diameter than stock) tops out at 60.  If I could get 65-70 out of second gear, that would cover 99% of tracks I've run on.

But, gear swaps put me out of stock and into a modified class with a far worse handicap.  I'd need to throw a lot more money into the car to be competitive.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I've actually toyed with the idea of switching the rear-end gear to 3.55s or even 3.31.  My second gear, with my race tire (slightly smaller diameter than stock) tops out at 60.  If I could get 65-70 out of second gear, that would cover 99% of tracks I've run on.

But, gear swaps put me out of stock and into a modified class with a far worse handicap.  I'd need to throw a lot more money into the car to be competitive.

Taller tires, then?

[MX793]

Taller tires, then?

Nobody makes them.  200TW autox tire selection in sizes over 18" are hard to find.  Very little selection in 19".  18" rims won't clear my front brakes, so the tires I've got are the closest to factory size I can get.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Nobody makes them.  200TW autox tire selection in sizes over 18" are hard to find.  Very little selection in 19".  18" rims won't clear my front brakes, so the tires I've got are the closest to factory size I can get.

So just put them in the back. The ABS will get confused. Oh, well

[MX793]

So just put them in the back. The ABS will get confused. Oh, well

They also don't make tall sidewall race tires (more than 45 aspect ratio), so 18s would end up smaller anyway, since stock are 40 AR.