Toyota Says Data Proves EV-Only Policy Is Worse For The Planet

[r0tor]

If they are really so utilitarian then they should abandon hydrogen and the Mirai like yesterday and use the billions saved to put out more goddamn PHEVs.

Hydrogen has and will never be a viable fuel.  You literally can not store it without having to vent it off and the energy density makes batteries looks ubertastic

[Laconian]

There are hydrogen fueling stations in LA that produce hydrogen on site.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lUkOHnjLsM

What an operation. All of it just screams "boondoggle".

[GoCougs]

On balance, are fuel cell vehicles any worse? I'm not seeing it. In the very least hydrogen short circuits the as-of-now show-stopping problem of the environmental toll and fossil fuel usage of extracting battery elements en masse and the sociopolitical drama that will underpin it all (esp. that war and the MIC are the most polluting things WtP do). You'll likely never have at-home fueling but WtP have never had that.

[r0tor]

There are hydrogen fueling stations in LA that produce hydrogen on site.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lUkOHnjLsM

What an operation. All of it just screams "boondoggle".

On the BMW hydrogen powered cars they start venting fuel after 17hrs of non use.  It's a simple physics problem.  Hydrogen needs to be kept extremely cold or pressures get extremely high.

[Laconian]

Fuel cell vehicles demand a lot of rare and expensive materials to serve as catalysts. Cobalt seems positively quaint by comparison to platinum (around $400 of Co versus $1700 of Pt). The hydrogen station requires electricity transport to the station. There are going to be losses in the H2 production process. The hydrogen plant is apparently very noisy and probably costs a mint to construct. Storage will have some leaks. And then the process of converting that stored hydrogen into electricity is also lossy. The fuel cell car also needs some lithium battery capacity to smooth out power generation.

The upside is fast recharging, but it's not really even that fast, and the advantage is eroding rapidly. And the cost of building a hydrogen gas station is a complete nonstarter. And what value is refilling if there's nowhere to fill at? They're never going to bootstrap a H2 fueling network without crazy subsidies, whether it be from government or Toyota's R&D science project budget. This is in contrast to electric chargers are set up cheaply and en masse today.

Electric recharging stations don't turn their real estate into Superfund sites either, which is another fun externality society that has to deal with today.

[cawimmer430]

Two weeks ago I had to drive my GF to Nürnberg because her BMW i3S couldn't make it.

Last Wednesday we were eating out in the city. We use er EV because it's more efficient to do so in the city, plus it allows her to charge the car while we eat. Well, it was a very cold night and after a delicious high end fine dining Chinese meal we retuned to her car - fully charged.

Range in these temperatures? 170 km (225 km in the summer, fully charged). That's 55 km of range that will never appear due to the cold. Ok, we get in, turn on the heated seats and heating... range drops to 155 km...

And some eco wackos are telling me I need to get rid of my efficient ICE car and hop into something that does everything worse and gives me no advantage???

[Laconian]

That crappy EV has radicalized you

[cawimmer430]

That crappy EV has radicalized you

I'm not against EVs, but I don't think they are the solution and I don't see what advantages they give me over an ICE. I can't do long trips at a high speed because the batteries can't handle it. I can't heat or cool my cabin because the batteries can't handle it. "Quick filling up" takes 20-30 minutes as opposed to 2-3 minutes for an ICE. If EVs are "better" than ICE cars, I expect them to beat and surpass the flexibility of ICE cars, which they don't (in my case and my driving needs).

But hey, they are useful for eating out with your GF in the city where stop-and-go traffic rules.

[Morris Minor]

Also, the cells themselves are packaged in a standardized way that allows them to be harvested and reused directly with only a small amount of manual labor. A cell with 70% life might be bad for a car but amazing for a cheap whole house battery backup.

If they were modularized you could use the packs themselves for consumer-level power backups à la Powerwall, just put them in a pretty box to hang in the garage. But if the pack itself is a structural element, based on what I saw when Munro & Associates stripped down a Tesla 4680 pack, they are virtually indestructible. It was a nightmare for them.

[Laconian]

I'm not against EVs, but I don't think they are the solution and I don't see what advantages they give me over an ICE. I can't do long trips at a high speed because the batteries can't handle it. I can't heat or cool my cabin because the batteries can't handle it. "Quick filling up" takes 20-30 minutes as opposed to 2-3 minutes for an ICE. If EVs are "better" than ICE cars, I expect them to beat and surpass the flexibility of ICE cars, which they don't (in my case and my driving needs).

But hey, they are useful for eating out with your GF in the city where stop-and-go traffic rules.

I envy your autobahn lifestyle and I can see why EVs aren't a good fit for it.

Stop and go traffic is my life here

[Morris Minor]

Unless their hobbies include inhaling fumes, changing engine oil, & changing brake pads, the needs of people who live their lives in and around cities are almost exactly matched by the proposition offered by modern EVs.

But I understand 'needs' and 'wants' are different animals.

[cawimmer430]

I envy your autobahn lifestyle and I can see why EVs aren't a good fit for it.

And remember - speeding is expensive. I will normally cruise between 120-150 km/h with the occasional venture into the 200 km/h+ zone if possible. If I am really in a hurry then I will gun it and it's fun for sure driving between 160-200+ km/h - and I will still get away with a fuel economy of under 10 L / 100 km (23.5 mpg) which when you think about it is pretty darn efficient for a gasoline engine at those speeds. Not to mention that AFAIK turbo engines at these speeds become really hot and will inject extra gasoline into the combustion chamber to cool it down.

And this is where I see no advantage for an EV. The electric motor might be 90% efficient but the low energy density of the batteries is still an issue and will be so for some time to come and won't enable this type of spirited Autobahn driving which I like so much.

Stop and go traffic is my life here

For the city and short-distance heavy traffic situations an EV is ideal. No argument from me here. This is why when my GF and I eat somewhere in the city, we always take her BMW i3S. We can find a parking spot for EVs and she can charge her car while we chow because where she lives the next EV charger is a little under a mile away. For trips outside of the city we use my car. It's a wonderful arrangement and in the grand scheme of things saves us both money.

[Laconian]

And remember - speeding is expensive. I will normally cruise between 120-150 km/h with the occasional venture into the 200 km/h+ zone if possible. If I am really in a hurry then I will gun it and it's fun for sure driving between 160-200+ km/h - and I will still get away with a fuel economy of under 10 L / 100 km (23.5 mpg) which when you think about it is pretty darn efficient for a gasoline engine at those speeds. Not to mention that AFAIK turbo engines at these speeds become really hot and will inject extra gasoline into the combustion chamber to cool it down.

And this is where I see no advantage for an EV. The electric motor might be 90% efficient but the low energy density of the batteries is still an issue and will be so for some time to come and won't enable this type of spirited Autobahn driving which I like so much.

I agree that high speeds demand sustained brute force backed by a big tank of gas, but I wonder how the ultra low Cd of the Lucid and Ioniq 6 might change the equation.

[cawimmer430]

I agree that high speeds demand sustained brute force backed by a big tank of gas, but I wonder how the ultra low Cd of the Lucid and Ioniq 6 might change the equation.

Good aerodynamics will probably help a little, but the end problem is still the low energy density of the batteries.

I've always wondered why electric cars "can't partially recharge themselves" while driving. I mean they won't be able to get 100% but is it not possible to maybe have some kind of device "steal" energy from say a moving tire and put this energy into the batteries while the car is in motion?

[AutobahnSHO]

Good aerodynamics will probably help a little, but the end problem is still the low energy density of the batteries.

I've always wondered why electric cars "can't partially recharge themselves" while driving. I mean they won't be able to get 100% but is it not possible to maybe have some kind of device "steal" energy from say a moving tire and put this energy into the batteries while the car is in motion?

that would be the same amount of energy used to push the car, MINUS friction.

A real innovation would be using the flex of the tires to generate electricity. That tiny little continuous flex would probably add up to quite a bit.

[cawimmer430]

that would be the same amount of energy used to push the car, MINUS friction.

Theoretically, wouldn't this mean the battery remains constantly charged?

[MrH]

Good aerodynamics will probably help a little, but the end problem is still the low energy density of the batteries.

I've always wondered why electric cars "can't partially recharge themselves" while driving. I mean they won't be able to get 100% but is it not possible to maybe have some kind of device "steal" energy from say a moving tire and put this energy into the batteries while the car is in motion?

Stop trolling Wimmer.  Next you're going to be posting this image

[Laconian]

Regen is a major component in overall EV efficiency. In this trip I captured almost 30%.

Granted I was going down a mountain pass, but...

[CaminoRacer]

Regen is a major component in overall EV efficiency. In this trip I captured almost 30%.

Granted I was going down a mountain pass, but...

Did your battery % go up after regenning downhill for a while? That's always fun to see

[AutobahnSHO]

Theoretically, wouldn't this mean the battery remains constantly charged?

No, because friction robs energy and the regen is never equal to the power output of electric motors, which lose some energy ias heat or just cable etc... losses.

[ChrisV]

I used to be a proponent of the hydrogen future, but for 30 years it's always BEEN a future 5-10 years away, due to the massive problems with it. It takes more energy to generate, it requires custom tanks that can handle the 10,000 psi that it must be stored at to get any sort of energy density out of it, as the smallest atom it can slip through other materials and is HIGHLY flammable making leaks a Really Big Deal. Hydrogen embrittlement is still a thing. And the fact that there's NO infrastructure for it, while there is electricity pretty much everywhere now, makes it a real hard sell (and you can't refuel at home like you can with electricity).

While the idea of quickly refilling with hydrogen is appealing as a positive, there are also problems that so far are not yet solved - for example, with economically generating hydrogen, and with doing so in an energy efficient way. The most appealing way from a clean energy perspective is to use electrolysis of water using wind and solar power. But this process isn't cheap, so the resulting hydrogen is a good deal more expensive than gas (while charging a BEV is a good deal cheaper than gas); and, you lose energy when you convert from electrical energy to chemical in electrolysis - it's a lot more direct/efficient to just use that electrical energy to charge BEVs. And then there will be a need for building out a very extensive network of hydrogen filling stations - which won't be trivial. These are not small problems.

No, this is a hedge against Japanese government regulations. That's all. Hydrogen is a non-starter globally for passenger cars. It might be good for trains and long haul trucks, if the hydrogen can be generated cheap enough.

[Laconian]

Hydrogen filling stations aren't fast either. It's like six to eight minutes per fill. The pump basically massages hydrogen in the tanks gingerly with repeated cycles of compression and suction, not too fast either or else the hydrogen gets heated too much. So many physical challenges to surmount and all for a few minutes saved vs. BEV.

BEV tech isn't standing still either. That gap is narrowing fast, especially as manufacturers switch to LFP and raise the voltages of their drivetrains.

[Laconian]

No, because friction robs energy and the regen is never equal to the power output of electric motors, which lose some energy ias heat or just cable etc... losses.

Entropy is a bitch!