***Drove a 1965 Pontiac Catalina Ventura 4-Door Sedan: HELL YEAH!!!***

Started by cawimmer430, May 24, 2023, 01:47:38 PM

FoMoJo

They tend to get a little "floaty" over 60mph, as I recall.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

cawimmer430

Quote from: FoMoJo on May 29, 2023, 04:41:11 PMThey tend to get a little "floaty" over 60mph, as I recall.

Yes. 70 mph was the best compromise speed to get forward. At this speed I could still "react" given the completely lifeless steering and soft suspension combination.

Plus, even as a speed freak, there are some cars which I will gladly drive slower on the Autobahn just because they can't cope with the high speeds. In the end it's not a problem since you learn to accept it that this thing wasn't built for this kind of driving. At the same time, it's brutal torture if I am forced to drive slow (aka speed limits) on the Autobahn in most German cars which are engineered for Autobahn-style driving.

-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

FoMoJo

What other vintage cars does this company have?  It might be interesting to rent an authentic Pony/Muscle car for comparison...a '69/'70 Boss 302 would be perfect, or even a Z/28.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Morris Minor

We look back at these cars with rose-tinted glasses: fantastic exuberant styling, big V8s etc. But they come nowhere close to measuring up to even a low-trim Camry or Corolla of the modern era, with systems feedback loops: everything metered, measured, optimized & monitored in real time.

1960s cars were fundamentally little different from 1930s cars. 
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

GoCougs

A car of this vintage in proper condition can indeed cruise 100-110 mph on a freeway in good condition and in the right hands. It'll be floaty compared to a modern vehicle of course, and I wouldn't advise a non-enthusiast to do it however. Wouldn't do it in the wet though. The main, or at least first problem, is brakes. Circa 1965 most US vehicles still had drum brakes both front and rear and something of this class was over 4,000 lbs. At those speeds you're only going to get one marginal slow down (say 110 to 70 mph) and anything after that without letting them cool is gonna be sketchy. FWIW, Pontiacs of this vintage had optional (and insanely cool and industrial) 8-lug wheels which were integral with the drum brakes, which afforded larger drums (and better, though still not disc brake better):


FoMoJo

Quote from: Morris Minor on May 30, 2023, 08:08:15 AMWe look back at these cars with rose-tinted glasses: fantastic exuberant styling, big V8s etc. But they come nowhere close to measuring up to even a low-trim Camry or Corolla of the modern era, with systems feedback loops: everything metered, measured, optimized & monitored in real time.

1960s cars were fundamentally little different from 1930s cars.
This is true, although during the '60s there was more attention paid to "handling" among the sportier mid-size cars.

However, the excitement of driving them, especially the muscle/pony cars, was in the rawness, the slight tingling sense that came through the steering wheel and gas pedal, especially with high compression engines with big valves and a lumpier cam.  Comparably, modern cars give a sense of sitting in a capsule with a steering wheel.  Nothing really to stir the senses other than crappy drivers wandering into your lane when they're checking their phones.

"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Eye of the Tiger

Even the most luxurious modern car rides like ass compared to an old land yacht like this. Everything is so stiff and handly these days.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

Morris Minor

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 31, 2023, 06:36:18 AMEven the most luxurious modern car rides like ass compared to an old land yacht like this. Everything is so stiff and handly these days.
Good point - nowadays if you want to waft on a cushion isolated in relative silence you have to spend 6 figures.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

GoCougs

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 31, 2023, 06:36:18 AMEven the most luxurious modern car rides like ass compared to an old land yacht like this. Everything is so stiff and handly these days.

Word.

cawimmer430

Quote from: FoMoJo on May 30, 2023, 05:55:00 AMWhat other vintage cars does this company have?  It might be interesting to rent an authentic Pony/Muscle car for comparison...a '69/'70 Boss 302 would be perfect, or even a Z/28.

Here's the website. No English language available.

https://oldie-garage.com/



And here's a screenshot from their price list with their cars. Aha, I see that they also have a Corvette C3 Convertible. The Mustang is a '64 model but with the 3.3-l inline-6, no V8.

-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

cawimmer430

Quote from: GoCougs on May 30, 2023, 08:14:42 AMA car of this vintage in proper condition can indeed cruise 100-110 mph on a freeway in good condition and in the right hands. It'll be floaty compared to a modern vehicle of course, and I wouldn't advise a non-enthusiast to do it however. Wouldn't do it in the wet though. The main, or at least first problem, is brakes. Circa 1965 most US vehicles still had drum brakes both front and rear and something of this class was over 4,000 lbs. At those speeds you're only going to get one marginal slow down (say 110 to 70 mph) and anything after that without letting them cool is gonna be sketchy. FWIW, Pontiacs of this vintage had optional (and insanely cool and industrial) 8-lug wheels which were integral with the drum brakes, which afforded larger drums (and better, though still not disc brake better):




Nice info.

The brakes were pretty good. I figured that they were either drum brakes or a mix of drum front/rear and/or disc brakes front/rear, some combination of sorts. The brakes were in good shape and I had no issues slowing down the car in a city environment. Thankfully there was no real stop-and-go traffic in Mühldorf. Munich style traffic probably would have overheated the drum brakes!
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

FoMoJo

Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 01, 2023, 07:06:56 AMHere's the website. No English language available.

https://oldie-garage.com/



And here's a screenshot from their price list with their cars. Aha, I see that they also have a Corvette C3 Convertible. The Mustang is a '64 model but with the 3.3-l inline-6, no V8.


Too bad that there're no muscle cars.  However, the Alfa Spider 1600 (should be an early vintage) and the Sunbeam Alpine Mk.4 should be fun for a drive in the country.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

cawimmer430

Quote from: FoMoJo on June 01, 2023, 02:07:48 PMToo bad that there're no muscle cars.  However, the Alfa Spider 1600 (should be an early vintage) and the Sunbeam Alpine Mk.4 should be fun for a drive in the country.

This was the closest company I could find which rents out classic and current US muscle cars among others.

Jochen Schweizer Autoverleih



And here are the cars from the first time I did business with them. Here's that Alfa which you like!



-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

Morris Minor

So, without ruining it, how far can you go in bringing a car like this up to a standard where the driving characteristics are less scary? I mean obviously fix stuff like mechanicals & worn steering bits... plus suspension joints/bushings.

Modern shocks?
Electronic ignition instead of points/condenser?
Modern radial tires?

Getting controversial...
Disc brakes?
Monopoint fuel injection?
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

shp4man

Quote from: Morris Minor on June 02, 2023, 05:38:19 AMSo, without ruining it, how far can you go in bringing a car like this up to a standard where the driving characteristics are less scary? I mean obviously fix stuff like mechanicals & worn steering bits... plus suspension joints/bushings.

Modern shocks?
Electronic ignition instead of points/condenser?
Modern radial tires?

Getting controversial...
Disc brakes?
Monopoint fuel injection?

The old Pontiac 389 engine in the Quadrajet carburetor configuration had a 10.25 to 1 compression ratio and about 345 horsepower. It could easily push that old lead sled up to 120MPH. The limitation is the tires. The soft springs have no effect on speed. I know, I've done it in a '63 Buick with the same drivetrain except for the excellent Buick nailhead engine, which was marginally better than the Poncho motor.

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: Morris Minor on June 02, 2023, 05:38:19 AMSo, without ruining it, how far can you go in bringing a car like this up to a standard where the driving characteristics are less scary? I mean obviously fix stuff like mechanicals & worn steering bits... plus suspension joints/bushings.

Modern shocks?
Electronic ignition instead of points/condenser?
Modern radial tires?

Getting controversial...
Disc brakes?
Monopoint fuel injection?

I think radial tires and front disc brakes are well worth having in a car that is meant to be driven. The rest is fine as long as it is in good working order.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

GoCougs

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on June 03, 2023, 09:22:45 AMI think radial tires and front disc brakes are well worth having in a car that is meant to be driven. The rest is fine as long as it is in good working order.

Agreed. Carbs and points ignition both work great, as long as they're kept in tune and maintained. So for a hobby vehicle, would be fine. Would be a PITA to drive say 15,000-20,000 miles a year though.

Enter restomods, which IMO often times go too far. Jay Leno has done tons of modernizing without going full-on restomod - electrical, brakes, FI, etc. Very cool stuff.

FoMoJo

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on June 03, 2023, 09:22:45 AMI think radial tires and front disc brakes are well worth having in a car that is meant to be driven. The rest is fine as long as it is in good working order.
Bear in mind that cars of the '50s and '60s were driven thousands of cross-country miles during vacations, etc.  They work just fine as long as they are not over-driven or driven carelessly.  Speed limits, etc. were pretty much the same back then as now.  The key is just to keep them in good working order.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: FoMoJo on June 04, 2023, 05:22:55 PMBear in mind that cars of the '50s and '60s were driven thousands of cross-country miles during vacations, etc.  They work just fine as long as they are not over-driven or driven carelessly.  Speed limits, etc. were pretty much the same back then as now.  The key is just to keep them in good working order.

There were also "full service" gas stations. We don't quite need them, anymore. Cars just run until they don't because you never even changed the oil, and then you can just buy a new plastic computer with wheels.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

CaminoRacer

Quote from: Morris Minor on June 02, 2023, 05:38:19 AMSo, without ruining it, how far can you go in bringing a car like this up to a standard where the driving characteristics are less scary? I mean obviously fix stuff like mechanicals & worn steering bits... plus suspension joints/bushings.

Modern shocks?
Electronic ignition instead of points/condenser?
Modern radial tires?

Getting controversial...
Disc brakes?
Monopoint fuel injection?

On 60s cars, especially popular ones like GM/Ford/etc, usually you can upgrade to disc brakes using OEM parts/designs since they offered disc brakes on most platforms. That's what I did on my car. It has 4 wheel disc brakes now, using '69 A-body front disc parts and late 70s Cadillac parts for the rear axle. Don't have to do the rear if you want to keep it more original, I only did that for ease of maintenance since I hate working on drum brakes.

HEI ignition is a great upgrade for reliability, although I went through a few modules before upgrading to an MSD ignition box to replace the module.

Radial tires are a must for a car driven more than around town, IMO.

Modernizing the wire harness with headlight relays can really help with headlight brightness. The sealed beams go from dim to perfectly adequate when you reduce the length of the higher voltage wire. Stock cars would have the wires go from the battery to the dash board and then back to the lights, so the voltage would drop quite a bit. With the relay, you can reduce the wire length by over half and have very little voltage drop.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

FoMoJo

IMO, modern headlights are much too bright.  Even with sealed beams I seldom used high beams.  As for brakes, front discs/rear drums are a good combination, but not necessary as classic cars are usually just driven to local "drive ins".  Hot rods, of course, are an entirely different matter.

"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

giant_mtb

Tacomas still come with rear drum brakes, even the top of the line TRD Pro. They last forever (got like 185k miles on old Taco's factory drums). And Tacos have braking distances right in line with its other midsize competitors. So if it ain't broke... :huh: :lol:

GoCougs

Drag racers like drum brakes because they tend to hold better/easier at standstill under load (i.e., old school "brake torque") better than disc brakes as drum brakes typically have a much larger braking surface area. Outside that, drums are heavy, trap junk and heat and easily fall out of adjustment.