EV Range: Battery vs Bladder.

[Morris Minor]

Good article in the latest Car and Driver. For me (mid-60s) the bladder clock runs out long before the fuel gauge hits "E." With an EV for road tripping I'd say real world 200 miles with a bit of sneeze room on top would be about the sweet spot.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a60658860/ev-driving-range-vs-human-bladder/

(OT: the C&D print edition is drastically improved: better layout, better typeface, better paper etc.)

[r0tor]

The print version better be better since it's now only bimonthly

[veeman]

Good article in the latest Car and Driver. For me (mid-60s) the bladder clock runs out long before the fuel gauge hits "E." With an EV for road tripping I'd say real world 200 miles with a bit of sneeze room on top would be about the sweet spot.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a60658860/ev-driving-range-vs-human-bladder/

(OT: the C&D print edition is drastically improved: better layout, better typeface, better paper etc.)

Haha interesting article.  From the article: "Most healthy adults will last four hours, while others may barely make it three."

Anecdotally I don't know how people fly cross country which is a 6 hr flight because maybe half the passengers I see going to the bathroom on these flights while the other half are not wetting their pants. 

Anyways my kids require me to stop every 2 to 3 hrs for a bathroom break and I'd hate to have to coordinate 20 or 30 minute battery charge sessions with my kid's bladder capacity.

My brother in law is driving this weekend to Virginia with his family which is an 8.5 hr drive. He sent me a screen shot on his Tesla which showed he'd have to make two battery charge stops and it would "only" be an extra 50 minutes. It also indicated however that he would arrive at the hotel he's staying at with 10 percent charge left. And the next morning he has to drive half an hour to the persons house where the party is at. Seems like a pain in the ass compared with driving the ICE Hyundai Tucson he has sitting in his garage.

[MrH]

Haha interesting article.  From the article: "Most healthy adults will last four hours, while others may barely make it three."

Anecdotally I don't know how people fly cross country which is a 6 hr flight because maybe half the passengers I see going to the bathroom on these flights while the other half are not wetting their pants. 

Anyways my kids require me to stop every 2 to 3 hrs for a bathroom break and I'd hate to have to coordinate 20 or 30 minute battery charge sessions with my kid's bladder capacity.

My brother in law is driving this weekend to Virginia with his family which is an 8.5 hr drive. He sent me a screen shot on his Tesla which showed he'd have to make two battery charge stops and it would "only" be an extra 50 minutes. It also indicated however that he would arrive at the hotel he's staying at with 10 percent charge left. And the next morning he has to drive half an hour to the persons house where the party is at. Seems like a pain in the ass compared with driving the ICE Hyundai Tucson he has sitting in his garage.

Yeah, exactly.  I think the coordination of the bathroom breaks with the optimal charging locations and times is the problem.

Where are you taking 6 hour flights domestically?  Unless you're going to Hawaii (but even that, it's less than 6 hours from California I think?), Most are well under 4 hours with a layover?  I basically never use an airplane bathroom unless I'm heading to Europe or something.

[veeman]

Yeah, exactly.  I think the coordination of the bathroom breaks with the optimal charging locations and times is the problem.

Where are you taking 6 hour flights domestically?  Unless you're going to Hawaii (but even that, it's less than 6 hours from California I think?), Most are well under 4 hours with a layover?  I basically never use an airplane bathroom unless I'm heading to Europe or something.

NYC to LA is a 6 hr flight. I live near NYC and once a year fly to San Diego for a conference and also have flown with family several times to Western U.S. cities.

Even Columbus OH to the West Coast is 5 hrs.

[Morris Minor]

RaceTrac, Wawa, Buc-ee's, BP et al will become charge, piss 'n' snack centers. The remote & rapist-friendly charge locations we have now will slowly fade away.

[SJ_GTI]

I'm surprised our local Wawa's don't have any yet. Maybe I am just too far out in the boonies.

[veeman]

I just don't see how the public electric grid would be able to accommodate a busy holiday travel weekend on our interstate highways with near 100% EV cars.

Especially if you include semi trucks.

[AutobahnSHO]

I just don't see how the public electric grid would be able to accommodate a busy holiday travel weekend on our interstate highways with near 100% EV cars.

Especially if you include semi trucks.

+1

[Morris Minor]

I just don't see how the public electric grid would be able to accommodate a busy holiday travel weekend on our interstate highways with near 100% EV cars.

Especially if you include semi trucks.

Beef it up. Build it out to meet demand. 

[giant_mtb]

Beef it up. Build it out to meet demand.

Tell that to California. The fifth largest economy in the world. That has to ask people to not charge their cars because the grid can't handle it when it's too hot outside.

Takes years and millions and millions (or probably billions if you want to not use fossil fuels) of dollars to do so. And where does that cost go? To the consumer. The majority of which can't afford a reasonable EV to begin with.

[CaminoRacer]

100% EV adoption will take decades. Even after 100% of new sales are EV-only, there's still millions of gas cars on the road. Plenty of time to beef up power grids.

California, Texas, etc. have power grid issues unrelated to EVs that need to be solved anyway.

[giant_mtb]

100% EV adoption will take decades. Even after 100% of new sales are EV-only, there's still millions of gas cars on the road. Plenty of time to beef up power grids.

California, Texas, etc. have power grid issues unrelated to EVs that need to be solved anyway.

100% EV adoption will never happen in our lifetime. Those who want 100% EV do not understand how mining (to make their EVs) works.

[FoMoJo]

100% EV adoption will never happen in our lifetime. Those who want 100% EV do not understand how mining (to make their EVs) works.

It took about a 100 years to develop reasonably efficient I/C engines so you're probably right.  Future development in the areas of batteries and capacitors may be the key to viable EVs that will eventually replace I/C vehicles.

[giant_mtb]

It took about a 100 years to develop reasonably efficient I/C engines so you're probably right.  Future development in the areas of batteries and capacitors may be the key to viable EVs that will eventually replace I/C vehicles.

Main difference being, oil was initially (and still is) relatively cheap compared to the millions/billions that would need to be invested into "renewable" resources to produce the same energy if everything is supposed to run on electricity.  As I've said before, as somebody who has lived in mine country their whole life...people think it's so simple and clean. But it's not.

[FoMoJo]

Main difference being, oil was initially (and still is) relatively cheap compared to the millions/billions that would need to be invested into "renewable" resources to produce the same energy if everything is supposed to run on electricity.  As I've said before, as somebody who has lived in mine country their whole life...people think it's so simple and clean. But it's not.

This may or may not be something that resolves how energy is stored or how it's used, but does offer a glimpse at "new things" being discovered in the field of electronics.

New Breakthrough in Energy Storage – MIT Engineers Create Supercapacitor out of Ancient Materials

Two of humanity's most ubiquitous historical materials, cement and carbon black (which resembles very fine charcoal), may form the basis for a novel, low-cost energy storage system, according to a new study. The technology could facilitate the use of renewable energy sources such as solar, wind, and tidal power by allowing energy networks to remain stable despite fluctuations in renewable energy supply.

The two materials, the researchers found, can be combined with water to make a supercapacitor — an alternative to batteries — that could provide storage of electrical energy. As an example, the MIT researchers who developed the system say that their supercapacitor could eventually be incorporated into the concrete foundation of a house, where it could store a full day's worth of energy while adding little (or no) to the cost of the foundation and still providing the needed structural strength. The researchers also envision a concrete roadway that could provide contactless recharging for electric cars as they travel over that road.

Futuristic, maybe, but with a bunch of turbines, or other future form of energy capture generating power that is stored in the highway?  Certainly not in my lifetime or likely yours, but no doubt other viable means of generating and storing and distributing electricity without robbing the earth of scarce materials will be found. 

[GoCougs]

100% EV adoption will never happen in our lifetime. Those who want 100% EV do not understand how mining (to make their EVs) works.

Yes; mining and ensuing Middle East v2.0 will be a prominent deciding factor.

People are so damned broke expecting them to pay 25-50% more for their (new) vehicles is a deal breaker.

Detroit is failing at EVs, so there's that. Bailouts for all yet again.

[Morris Minor]

[snip]
Detroit is failing at EVs, so there's that. Bailouts for all yet again.

The protectionist tariffs SPINners are squabbling over in the EVs thread are arguably one incarnation of bailouts.

[CaminoRacer]

Main difference being, oil was initially (and still is) relatively cheap compared to the millions/billions that would need to be invested into "renewable" resources to produce the same energy if everything is supposed to run on electricity.  As I've said before, as somebody who has lived in mine country their whole life...people think it's so simple and clean. But it's not.

EVs only need mining once vs. constant extraction for gasoline throughout the car's life. Plus, battery recycling is very good. CATL has achieved a recovery rate of 99.6% for nickel, cobalt and manganese, and 91% for lithium. And battery chemistries like LFP and sodium batteries reduce the demand for nickel and cobalt.

[r0tor]

EVs only need mining once vs. constant extraction for gasoline throughout the car's life. Plus, battery recycling is very good. CATL has achieved a recovery rate of 99.6% for nickel, cobalt and manganese, and 91% for lithium. And battery chemistries like LFP and sodium batteries reduce the demand for nickel and cobalt.

To my knowledge, thar recycling is at a table top level not at scale - and no real details from an environmental perspective on what appears to be a seriously nasty process.

[CaminoRacer]

To my knowledge, thar recycling is at a table top level not at scale - and no real details from an environmental perspective on what appears to be a seriously nasty process.

Well there's been no reason to recycle at a large scale yet, it's not like there are unused batteries stacking up anywhere yet.

Looking at the recycling and scrap sales (/thefts) of things like copper and the precious metals in catalytic converters, it's clear that batteries will also have a robust recycling demand & supply chain.

[r0tor]

Well there's been no reason to recycle at a large scale yet, it's not like there are unused batteries stacking up anywhere yet.

Looking at the recycling and scrap sales (/thefts) of things like copper and the precious metals in catalytic converters, it's clear that batteries will also have a robust recycling demand & supply chain.

There is a decent amount of wrecked EVs by now and a market starting to reuse the batteries for home energy storage, which for a while is probably the best thing that can come of them.

[GoCougs]

Well there's been no reason to recycle at a large scale yet, it's not like there are unused batteries stacking up anywhere yet.

Looking at the recycling and scrap sales (/thefts) of things like copper and the precious metals in catalytic converters, it's clear that batteries will also have a robust recycling demand & supply chain.

Shaping up to be as robust as windmill blade "recycling" (burying them):



WtP mostly now realize that EVs aren't any better for the environment than ICEVs - EVs just shift the pollution to different places/forms.

[CaminoRacer]

Shaping up to be as robust as windmill blade "recycling" (burying them):


WtP mostly now realize that EVs aren't any better for the environment than ICEVs - EVs just shift the pollution to different places/forms.

Okay, you have a picture of a completely unrelated thing. Where's the evidence of EV batteries being buried?

[Morris Minor]

EVs only need mining once vs. constant extraction for gasoline throughout the car's life. Plus, battery recycling is very good. CATL has achieved a recovery rate of 99.6% for nickel, cobalt and manganese, and 91% for lithium. And battery chemistries like LFP and sodium batteries reduce the demand for nickel and cobalt.

Yup. You don't drill for electricity then pump it into tankers and burn massive quantities of heavy fuel oil to bring it to terminals. And then refine it. Then put it into stinky diesel trucks to take it to the gas stations. 

I think eventually the grid will look different: more nukes, more wind, more solar, more storage.

[AutobahnSHO]

Kemmerer, Wyoming has been the site of tons of coal mining. (Did y'all know Wyoming is the nation's biggest coal exporter?)

But they are going to start construction of the new mini nuclear power plant prototype there soon.

[giant_mtb]

Yup. You don't drill for electricity then pump it into tankers and burn massive quantities of heavy fuel oil to bring it to terminals. And then refine it. Then put it into stinky diesel trucks to take it to the gas stations.

I think eventually the grid will look different: more nukes, more wind, more solar, more storage.

I guess hydropower, wind farms, and solar panels just sprout out of the ground then, huh?  No mining or pollution or anything involved with producing the electricity involved with EVs.

[GoCougs]

Okay, you have a picture of a completely unrelated thing. Where's the evidence of EV batteries being buried?

No, batteries aren't buried, silly!

The point is, there's always a cost, and the theory of entropy, the environmental toll of WtP owing and driving cars will be about the same, no matter how it's done.

[ChrisV]

To my knowledge, thar recycling is at a table top level not at scale - and no real details from an environmental perspective on what appears to be a seriously nasty process.

There are dozens of companies set up to recycle EV batteries at scale, from LiCycle to Redwood materials and others. As was mentioned, there are damn few batteries nearing end of life that haven't been repurposed as stationary storage, though.

As for the grid, people were asked in California to not charge during peak hours (4-9pm). The thing is, almost no one charges then ANYHOW, as most EV charging is done overnight when grid demand (even in California) is up to 40% lower than daytime peaks, and there's plenty of overhead to accommodate all vehicles being EV NOW, if most or all charged overnight (they don't, but the number that would be charging at peak hours is extremely low).

As was mentioned, there's no physical way for all cars to be EVs overnight, even if all manufacturing switched to making only EVs first thing Monday morning. In the US, the average new car sales figure is about 15 million cars and light trucks per year. At that rate, it would take about 2 decades to replace all the 280 million cars and personal trucks in the US. And we know that we WON'T be replacing them all, as there are always going to be classics, hobbyist cars, and simply older used cars on the roads. And with the earliest supposed mandates being 8 years away (and most being 12 years out), you can add another decade onto that timeline. So 30 years. You guys don't think the grid can expand the minimal bit it'll need to in 30 years?

I mean, 10 years ago, the grid expanded production to handle the 100 Terawatts of demand that bitcoin mining started using. And in the last 5 years, we've added hundreds, if not thousands of huge regional datacenters (for Amazon, Google, etc) to the grid, that combined use more electricity than if all cars were EVs, AND do so 24/7 (which is where the California grid strain has been coming from, though they are working rapidly to improve that).

[Morris Minor]

I am very confident that, like masks & hand sanitizers from the lockdown era, the grid supply will expand to meet demand. Then we'll have a glut, because shortages are always followed by gluts.