How China has leapfrogged major car-exporting nations

Started by Laconian, December 07, 2024, 11:10:57 AM

Laconian

A good article about the market reality the car industry is facing: the EV shift renders Europe's and US' legacy investments in ICE technology obsolete and plays right into China's demonstrated agility and adaptability.

We might throw up tariffs but the rest of the developing world won't. We're building walls and cutting ourselves off so that we can lock down our shrinking slice of the pie.

This chart says it all. Look at that hockey stick growth. And notice how every other country's exports plateaus at the same time.



https://news.sky.com/story/the-electric-shock-behind-europes-stuttering-ev-future-and-how-china-has-leapfrogged-major-car-exporting-nations-13267440


Across Europe, car companies are cutting jobs and shutting factories - to the extent that some question their very existence. So it's worth asking the question: what's gone wrong with Europe (and for that matter America's) car industry?

While some will reach for their own pet conclusions (Brexit! Electric vehicle deadlines! Government regulations!) in practice there's something bigger, deeper and less parochial going on here. As the world shifts from petrol and diesel cars to their electric counterparts, a seismic shift is taking place in the global motor industry.

It is a shift which threatens to cause even more pain and disruption at carmakers in developed economies. And given most of these countries' high-skilled and highly-paid manufacturing jobs are to be found in or around the car-making sector, this is no trivial matter.

Look at a chart of global car exports and you see a very striking sight indeed.

The lines for the traditional car-making countries - Japan, Germany, South Korea - are more or less flat, save for the period around the pandemic. But now look at the line for China. This country which, only a few years ago, was one of the minnows of the global car trade with barely 250,000 car exports each year, has suddenly launched into the stratosphere. In the space of barely two years, it has leapfrogged all the other major car-exporting nations to become the world's biggest car exporter - in terms of the sheer number of cars.

This arresting chart might give you the impression that Chinese dominance is a very recent thing - a sudden and unexpected spurt. Except that that's somewhat misleading, because this shift has been a long time coming. To see why, it helps (strange as this will sound) to ponder the innards of a typical car.

A conventional petrol or diesel car is an assembly of lots of different components. There's the radiator, the exhaust pipe, the wheels and the brakes, but most of all, there is the engine. An internal combustion engine is - even in 2024 - an extraordinary piece of machinery. We take these things for granted (and, given their carbon emissions, some sneer at them). But the ability to take fuel and explode it in a controlled way that turns wheels remains a great mechanical achievement.

To be able to make these engines - contraptions of many different parts, each of which undergoes enormous stresses - at a low cost and in a way that ensures their long-term reliability is all the more impressing an achievement.

Indeed, making reliable engines was such an enormous industrial challenge that it defied China for most of the past century. Part of the reason Chinese car exports were so low for so long was because China struggled to make decent engines.


So it won't surprise you to learn that the engine is comfortably the most expensive component in a typical car - accounting for more than a fifth of the total value of a car. Much of Britain and Europe's car industry is focused on this 21% of the car value - because that's where our expertise has been built up over decades.
Taking bits of steel and combining them into this complex contraption is part of the industrial story of Europe (and America). Millions of people are employed across Europe working either at carmakers or their suppliers making these engines. This is where some of the best-paid, highest-skilled manufacturing jobs are to be found, even today in 2024.

But here's the critical thing. In an electric car there is no engine. Instead, the vast majority of the value lies in something else: the battery.

Making a battery is very, very different to making an engine. It's chemical engineering - not mechanical engineering. The skills built up by European carmakers over decades are simply not directly transferrable. Even if Europe was the only continent in the world making cars, it would still be an almighty challenge to shift from one industrial model to a very different one, without having a rollercoaster ride along the way.

But Europe's problem (and America's and South Korea and Japan's too) is that it's not alone in making cars. China, which struggled to compete on those car engines decades ago, has been investing in electric carmaking for some time.

In doing so, it has been helped by subsidies far more generous than those their Western competitors tend to receive (nearly all carmakers get subsidies - one way or another). Beijing has long been determined both to dominate this next phase of car production and reduce its reliance on Middle Eastern oil imports - both of which point towards mass electrification of road transport.

And those subsidies - alongside cheap energy costs helped by China's relaxed attitude towards coal-fired power - are one part of the explanation for why China has been able to produce cars with far cheaper costs than their Western competitors. Analysts from Swiss bank UBS recently tried to break down the costs of a German-produced VW ID3 compared with the component costs of a Chinese car, the BYD Seal.

They found that the BYD was cheaper to produce - not just overall, but for every single component part. And since it was far cheaper to produce, that meant it could be sold at far cheaper rates.

Some of that is explained by state aid but, even more so, it's a consequence of something else. China's interest in batteries is not a recent trend. It has been investing in their production for many, many years. It has been attempting to dominate not just the production of cells but also of the cathodes and anodes that go inside them - not to mention the chemicals used to make those electrodes. It has been firming up the entire supply chain - all the way down to the mines. And while you can find only so much lithium and cobalt in China, Chinese firms have been buying up mines in Africa and elsewhere for years.

The upshot is that China is the dominant country not just in the production of EVs and the cells inside them but in nearly every component that goes inside those cells. If you want to make a battery today you will be hard pressed not to use at least some Chinese technology or products. It's that dominant.

The late business writer Clay Christensen coined the term "disruptive innovation" to describe moments like this. When a new technology comes along that completely changes the industrial structure in a sector, it's incredibly difficult for the incumbent businesses to respond and adapt. They simply aren't set up for it. Think about how digital photography displaced traditional film, or how smartphones have displaced traditional computers.

What makes this moment so tricky for European carmakers is that they are trying to compete with a disruptive innovation which has been supercharged by Chinese industrial strategy. The upshot is that China is so far ahead on battery production - particularly of low-cost batteries - that it's hard to see how Europe and America - and, to some extent, South Korea and Japan, can catch up.

All of which is why so many countries are reaching for the most drastic of all economic remedies: large, expensive tariffs on imports of Chinese EVs. The US and Canada have imposed 100% tariffs, India is following suit with similar rates. Europe has introduced a sliding range of extra tariffs. Japan has yet to do so, but is protected to some extent by the fact that their consumers habitually typically buy Japanese.

The main outlier here is the UK. This country has not yet imposed any extra tariffs on Chinese imports. The upshot is that this is one of the most attractive places in the world for Chinese producers to market their cars right now - and one of the cheapest places to buy a Chinese car. But that has profound consequences for domestic car producers.

With energy costs having risen so much, it is getting harder, rather than easier, to compete with Chinese production domestically. It raises profound questions about the ability of this country's car industry to survive or compete.

The logic of these transitions is that they often move in slow motion but become quite self-fulfilling. Britain and Europe had opportunities to invest in batteries in years gone by; they have been spectacularly slow-moving in setting up new supply chains. But the cards were always stacked against them. The coming years will probably get tougher, as the 2035 EV deadline approaches, pushing consumers towards a market which is becoming ever more dominated by one country.

Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

GoCougs

Oh, boy, I take exception to most of the article - no surprise!

Firstly, I don't buy the premise that widespread EV adoption is the future. The US has shown that this by no means settled - it's 12+ years on (Tesla Model S released in June 2012) and despite moderate subsidizes, all EV endeavors are failing in the US (and getting worse) save for Tesla - whether that's failed charge infrastructure or the failed businesses of legacy automakers' EV models.

Secondly, China heavily (HEAVILY) subsidizes domestic manufacturing. Socialism is good for short blips of success but as soon as the tech or market changes, the industry is literally destroyed. Remember, the commercialized EV, let alone mass automobile production, started in the US, not China (TBH, not much of note has started in China in modern times).

Thirdly, in the 4th to last paragraph, it's stated that pretty much any auto market of any size save the UK (which no longer has domestic auto industry of note) has already imposed heavy tariffs on exported Chinese EVs. If by some stroke of the infinite EVs ARE the future, said large car markets will simply keep cheap Chinese EVs out. China shirley knows this.

Fourth, established automakers (esp. US-based) are not too interested let alone focused on the developing world so not sure they'd care to lose out on that future business. If that's China's play, sure, let them have at it. It'll make everything worse eventually, as socialism eventually always does, but whatevs.

AutobahnSHO

But the rest of the world is leap frogging out of their status quo. US good will be too expensive in other markets, while China will sell those markets.

For instance, look at iPhone market share across the world, vs cheap Androids.

The iPhone is really sold most in USA and UK.
Will

SJ_GTI

China hasn't leapfrogged anyone.

There are a lot of people in China, hence the big numbers. China is still a relatively poor country. On a per capita basis China is getting close to catching up with Mexico and Russia. Its good progress for them, but they still have a very long way to go. Even with such a low level of income/wealth per capita, we are already seeing supply chains look for cheaper alternatives.

On the other hand, China is going to have major demographic issues in the coming ~10-20 years. As their population ages it looks like there is a good chance their population could actually start declining.

Calling China agile and adaptable is also kind of silly. They are a single party fascist political system. Their "growth" can look good because they are starting from so far behind, but the notion that they are agile or adaptive seems nonsensical on its face.

IMHO, unless China start liberalizing its economy again it will look a lot more like Russia in ~50 years than North America or Western Europe. If you are already part of the elite or part of an oligarchy that probably seems fine, but for ~95% of the population it will continue to suck.

r0tor

China invested $250 Billion building out EV infrastructure, manufacturing capabilities, and securing raw materials for EVs.  They put in place stable EV rules/timelines.  They give massive incentives to make sure buyers want and can afford the EVs.


The West has only created circular regulations that give no direction, completely failed on infrastructure, and put in place tariffs on batteries and raw materials that limit OEM options.


This isn't rocket science.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee E Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

GoCougs

Quote from: SJ_GTI on December 09, 2024, 05:50:21 AMChina hasn't leapfrogged anyone.

There are a lot of people in China, hence the big numbers. China is still a relatively poor country. On a per capita basis China is getting close to catching up with Mexico and Russia. Its good progress for them, but they still have a very long way to go. Even with such a low level of income/wealth per capita, we are already seeing supply chains look for cheaper alternatives.

On the other hand, China is going to have major demographic issues in the coming ~10-20 years. As their population ages it looks like there is a good chance their population could actually start declining.

Calling China agile and adaptable is also kind of silly. They are a single party fascist political system. Their "growth" can look good because they are starting from so far behind, but the notion that they are agile or adaptive seems nonsensical on its face.

IMHO, unless China start liberalizing its economy again it will look a lot more like Russia in ~50 years than North America or Western Europe. If you are already part of the elite or part of an oligarchy that probably seems fine, but for ~95% of the population it will continue to suck.

FWIW, the article was concerning (titled, actually) Chinese vehicle exports, not its domestic market (not mentioned), and in that they have absolutely leapfrogged everyone as shown in the graph - the point of the article is that China was able to leapfrog due to its unique ability to "focus."

IMO I think this is a miss - what looks like agility and adaptability to perform such leapfrogging is one-party socialistic rule on the shiny thing of the day.

MrH

Yeah, I'm not too worried, for a lot of the reasons mentioned.

The name of the game isn't building EVs with massive subsidies.

We're not going to be 50%+ of new cars sales being EVs for a lonnnnng time.  You basically still need to be a massive nerd to buy one, appreciate one, and use it without getting frustrated.  I'd bet 90%+ of the US population can't explain DC vs AC, volts, amps, kW, kWh, etc.  You need to have a pretty deep understanding of these currently.  Until we get to solid state batteries that charge as fast as filling up with gas, I don't think you can get an EV and barely understand how it works.

2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2024 Miata Grand Touring

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV, '23 Subaru BRZ

r0tor

Also, I'll add from my info at work the cost of electric at our China sites is more expensive than some of the US sites.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee E Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

veeman

#8
The U.S. and several other countries will prevent China from selling their EVs domestically (regardless in which country they were made) because they are, no exaggeration, an existential threat to their domestic auto industry and in addition these countries don't like China and are very weary of them. This includes for example Japan and India which have large automobile markets. If BYD (a Chinese branded EV company) for example were allowed to sell their cars in the U.S. without U.S. govt intervention tariffs, they would be able to sell their EVs made in Mexico for a lot less than new cars made by both Tesla and other legacy brands in the U.S. and people in the know like Musk and Jim Farley have been blown away by Chinese EV quality.

Very hard to know how the European Union will act. They have tended to do things which are short sighted with regards to their energy and immigration policy and this has resulted in many of their individual governments recently swinging to the right side of the political spectrum. Chinese EV companies are currently building their factories in the European Union. What Germany does will probably determine a lot about the future of Chinese EV in Western Europe. If they are smart they will build a wall around Chinese branded EV in their country and allow VW, for example, to make the necessary domestic cuts VW wants to do. Lots of competing interests in Germany though including people who don't give a crap about their own auto industry and would prefer if everyone used public transportation.

Many countries are welcoming Chinese EV like Brazil, Thailand, Philippines, etc. There will be a significant need for ICE cars however as these countries aren't sparsely populated rich nations like Norway and Iceland which can support an all EV future in the near term or even far term. 

Things are changing for sure. Probably a few legacy manufacturers will go under or consolidate as a result of Chinese EV expansion.

GoCougs

Quote from: MrH on December 09, 2024, 06:59:55 AMYeah, I'm not too worried, for a lot of the reasons mentioned.

The name of the game isn't building EVs with massive subsidies.

We're not going to be 50%+ of new cars sales being EVs for a lonnnnng time.  You basically still need to be a massive nerd to buy one, appreciate one, and use it without getting frustrated.  I'd bet 90%+ of the US population can't explain DC vs AC, volts, amps, kW, kWh, etc.  You need to have a pretty deep understanding of these currently.  Until we get to solid state batteries that charge as fast as filling up with gas, I don't think you can get an EV and barely understand how it works.



China shirley has to know that the top auto markets (US, Germany, Japan, etc.) will stop cold Chinese EV imports, which means developing auto markets is their focus. It's hard to imagine the electrification of said developing auto markets to the point of supporting widespread EV adoption. Then again, the aforementioned "focus" could also be applied to said electrification (which makes a lot of sense - and though I don't condone it such exporting is WAY better than exporting war, regime change and weapons sales).

veeman

Quote from: MrH on December 09, 2024, 06:59:55 AMYeah, I'm not too worried, for a lot of the reasons mentioned.

The name of the game isn't building EVs with massive subsidies.

We're not going to be 50%+ of new cars sales being EVs for a lonnnnng time.  You basically still need to be a massive nerd to buy one, appreciate one, and use it without getting frustrated.  I'd bet 90%+ of the US population can't explain DC vs AC, volts, amps, kW, kWh, etc.  You need to have a pretty deep understanding of these currently.  Until we get to solid state batteries that charge as fast as filling up with gas, I don't think you can get an EV and barely understand how it works.



I don't think people need to know much about the physics of EV to get them to buy one. Many people don't know much of anything about the physics/engineering of ICE and they still buy them. Instead of filling the tank with gasoline, you charge the battery.

That you need to download a specific company's APP to charge a non Tesla branded EV car has been a total fail. No idea why anyone can't just swipe their credit card without downloading any APP and ridiculous that these companies haven't aggressively maintained their public chargers so that they always work. Just failure all around for non-Tesla branded public EV fast charging.

Morris Minor

#11
I don't really care where their vehicles are screwed together. That's drudge robot work.

One thing the US has that others do not is risk appetite. Neither do they have the venture cap & educational systems that seed the crazy weirdo developers & engineers that make EVs happen. The EU has regulated itself out of relevance. China though... I have this sense that they're the guy in the exam hall peering over to get a squint of your test answers.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤
''Simplicity is Complexity Resolved'' - Constantin Brâncuși

MrH

Quote from: veeman on December 09, 2024, 08:42:50 AMI don't think people need to know much about the physics of EV to get them to buy one. Many people don't know much of anything about the physics/engineering of ICE and they still buy them. Instead of filling the tank with gasoline, you charge the battery.

That you need to download a specific company's APP to charge a non Tesla branded EV car has been a total fail. No idea why anyone can't just swipe their credit card without downloading any APP and ridiculous that these companies haven't aggressively maintained their public chargers so that they always work. Just failure all around for non-Tesla branded public EV fast charging.

The amount of idiotic questions that come in on the Ford Lightning forum and user groups is mind blowing.  People blowing $60k+ on something and don't understand the very basics of it and immediately start complaining.

Tesla's require you to download their app to use their chargers too?  Unless you have a non-Tesla and they have plug and play functionality built in.  But that also applies to non-Tesla chargers.  I guess I don't understand what distinction you're making with Tesla vs non-Tesla here?
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2024 Miata Grand Touring

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV, '23 Subaru BRZ

r0tor

I can't comprehend why you can't swipe a credit card like a gas pump... Other than some company needs to mine your data
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee E Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

Also, tariffs have already failed.  "Volvo" is selling a Chinese EV in the US with no tariffs
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee E Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

veeman

#15
Quote from: MrH on December 09, 2024, 09:12:36 AMThe amount of idiotic questions that come in on the Ford Lightning forum and user groups is mind blowing.  People blowing $60k+ on something and don't understand the very basics of it and immediately start complaining.

Tesla's require you to download their app to use their chargers too?  Unless you have a non-Tesla and they have plug and play functionality built in.  But that also applies to non-Tesla chargers.  I guess I don't understand what distinction you're making with Tesla vs non-Tesla here?

Someone with a Tesla can make long distance interstate trips within the U.S. (most of the U.S. anyways) because their car will tell them where the public Tesla superchargers are on their route, how many chargers are available to use at a given Tesla supercharging station at any given time, and how long it will take them to charge. While it will take them significantly longer to get to their destination than an ICE, it works the great majority of the time. Issues occur if you have a crowded event (where all the public chargers are being used) or if you encounter near 0 deg freezing temperatures. No other EV car outside of Tesla can be driven like that without huge risk in getting stranded. It just doesn't work. That is a large reason why Tesla is kicking their butt. That is a large reason why the Cybertruck is outselling the Ford Lightning and Rivian R1 combined despite being an inferior product in many ways. I can take a Tesla to drop off my daughter to college which is 170 miles from my house and return home without any fear of getting stranded. It would take me half an hour longer than in my ICE but for a 6 hr round trip, it's not a huge amount of extra time. I simply cannot do that in my Kia EV6. It's not even an option because I have no trust in those far fewer public chargers to even be working properly. For me it's not a big deal but its a large reason for the abject failure of non Tesla branded EV within the U.S.

MrH

Quote from: veeman on December 09, 2024, 10:14:41 AMSomeone with a Tesla can make long distance interstate trips within the U.S. (most of the U.S. anyways) because their car will tell them where the public Tesla superchargers are on their route, how many chargers are available to use at a given Tesla supercharging station at any given time, and how long it will take them to charge. While it will take them significantly longer to get to their destination than an ICE, it works and it works well.  No other EV car outside of Tesla can be driven like that without huge risk in getting stranded. It just doesn't work. That is a large reason why Tesla is kicking their butt. That is a large reason why the Cybertruck is outselling the Ford Lightning and Rivian R1 combined despite being an inferior product in many ways. I can take a Tesla to drop off my daughter to college which is 170 miles from my house and return home without any fear of getting stranded. It would take me half an hour longer than in my ICE but for a 6 hr trip, it's not a huge amount of extra time. I simply cannot do that in my Kia EV6. It's not even an option because I have no trust in those far fewer public chargers to even be working.

:confused:  Non Teslas can do the exact same thing.  Ford's OEM nav can do it.  CarPlay and Android Auto can now do it too.  Only downside is Apple Maps doesn't recognize that we can have an adapter for NACS yet.  Sounds like Google Maps on Android Auto takes that into account.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2024 Miata Grand Touring

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV, '23 Subaru BRZ

veeman

#17
Quote from: MrH on December 09, 2024, 10:18:37 AM:confused:  Non Teslas can do the exact same thing.  Ford's OEM nav can do it.  CarPlay and Android Auto can now do it too.  Only downside is Apple Maps doesn't recognize that we can have an adapter for NACS yet.  Sounds like Google Maps on Android Auto takes that into account.

I think taking a non Tesla branded EV beyond it's home range and having to rely on very hit or miss public chargers, often in isolated areas, is not wise. It's a big reason why, when my mother in law recently leased her Lexus RZ (their EV car) the dealership offered her 30 days of free ICE Lexus RX use during her lease for the occasional long distance trip she'll do.

What other explanation do you have for why the Ford Lightning is not selling?  When people buy an expensive full size pickup, they want to be able to take it on long distance trips. In the media there are many accounts of people trying this and failing necessitating an expensive tow and renting an ICE. CEO of Ford, Jim Farley, when taking a Lightning long distance "Charging has been pretty challenging..."  Even Biden's Secretary of Energy, with full entourage with her, had the police called on her because her staff "reserved" a public EV charging station for her before she reached it preventing someone else from charging. Complete abject failure is the non-Tesla branded public supercharging network within the United States.

MrH

Quote from: veeman on December 09, 2024, 11:40:56 AMI think taking a non Tesla branded EV beyond it's home range and having to rely on very hit or miss public chargers, often in isolated areas, is not wise. It's a big reason why, when my mother in law recently leased her Lexus RZ (their EV car) the dealership offered her 30 days of free ICE Lexus RX use during her lease for the occasional long distance trip she'll do.

What other explanation do you have for why the Ford Lightning is not selling?  When people buy an expensive full size pickup, they want to be able to take it on long distance trips. In the media there are many accounts of people trying this and failing necessitating an expensive tow and renting an ICE. CEO of Ford, Jim Farley, when taking a Lightning long distance "Charging has been pretty challenging..."  Even Biden's Secretary of Energy, with full entourage with her, had the police called on her because her staff "reserved" a public EV charging station for her before she reached it preventing someone else from charging. Complete abject failure is the non-Tesla branded public supercharging network within the United States.

It's expensive and EVs only work for a small amount of people?

You're pointing at the difference in charging network as the reason they're not selling well, but Ford EVs can charge on the Tesla network now.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2024 Miata Grand Touring

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV, '23 Subaru BRZ

GoCougs

All non-Telsa EV sales are collapsing, not just the Ford Lightning. WtP buy Tesla, not EVs. If those models were reversed up (Tesla = Lightning, Rivian = Cybertruck, Tesla = R1T), the Lightning would be the sales winner and the other two collapsing.

People have always known public non-Tesla charge infrastructure is largely useless. IMO it's much more that the profile for EV owners - upper class who have at the ready a spare ICEV or two - is a relatively small population, and the subclass that won't buy Tesla, is even smaller. Now that that submarket is satiated, well, there we go.

veeman

Lots of compatibility issues with non Teslas charging at Tesla superchargers. Often they charge at very slow speeds.

Morris Minor

Quote from: MrH on December 09, 2024, 09:12:36 AMThe amount of idiotic questions that come in on the Ford Lightning forum and user groups is mind blowing.  People blowing $60k+ on something and don't understand the very basics of it and immediately start complaining.

Tesla's require you to download their app to use their chargers too?  Unless you have a non-Tesla and they have plug and play functionality built in.  But that also applies to non-Tesla chargers.  I guess I don't understand what distinction you're making with Tesla vs non-Tesla here?
A neighbor said last week that his electrician told him he'd done countless wall charger installs where panicked owners hadn't realized they'd need more than the 120V NEMA 5-15 outlets. I don't get it, spend 10s of 1,000s on a car and not bothering to Google what you need to charge it.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤
''Simplicity is Complexity Resolved'' - Constantin Brâncuși

Laconian

Quote from: veeman on December 09, 2024, 02:43:20 PMLots of compatibility issues with non Teslas charging at Tesla superchargers. Often they charge at very slow speeds.

Third gen Superchargers don't produce the high voltages that cars crave. So they have to use their own onboard transformers to adapt to the HV batteries' voltages.

IIRC fourth gen SCs can spit out a kilovolt so it won't be a problem for long. I hope.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: MrH on December 09, 2024, 09:12:36 AMThe amount of idiotic questions that come in on the Ford Lightning forum and user groups is mind blowing.  People blowing $60k+ on something and don't understand the very basics of it and immediately start complaining.

I'm so very very tired of people not even turning the brain on.

It's like people were embarrassed to ask dumb things in public 50years ago, now it's a badge of honor to be stupid and/or clueless.
Will

GoCougs

Quote from: r0tor on December 09, 2024, 09:26:56 AMAlso, tariffs have already failed.  "Volvo" is selling a Chinese EV in the US with no tariffs

The tariffs worked as planned. "Volvo" had to cancel US deliveries of the Chinese-sourced EX30 (and other Chinese relabled EVs) due to the Biden tariffs. The fix was to move US-bound EV production from China to Belgium to sidestep the tariffs (which of course is an implied tariff due to the increase in manufacturing costs, but you get the point).  China will never be able to dump cheap EVs into markets with a developed domestic auto industry.

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: Laconian on December 09, 2024, 04:05:05 PMThird gen Superchargers don't produce the high voltages that cars crave. So they have to use their own onboard transformers to adapt to the HV batteries' voltages.

IIRC fourth gen SCs can spit out a kilovolt so it won't be a problem for long. I hope.

I can spit out more volts than that by wearing a polyester jacket and getting out of my car.
2024 Mitsubishi Mirage ES

r0tor

Quote from: GoCougs on December 09, 2024, 10:11:40 PMThe tariffs worked as planned. "Volvo" had to cancel US deliveries of the Chinese-sourced EX30 (and other Chinese relabled EVs) due to the Biden tariffs. The fix was to move US-bound EV production from China to Belgium to sidestep the tariffs (which of course is an implied tariff due to the increase in manufacturing costs, but you get the point).  China will never be able to dump cheap EVs into markets with a developed domestic auto industry.

Sorry, the EX30 is shipping now

https://insideevs.com/news/740089/volvo-ex30-us-debut-price/#:~:text=And%20the%20U.S.%2Dspec%20EX30,hp%20EX30%20Twin%20Motor%20Performance.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee E Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MrH

Quote from: Laconian on December 09, 2024, 04:05:05 PMThird gen Superchargers don't produce the high voltages that cars crave. So they have to use their own onboard transformers to adapt to the HV batteries' voltages.

IIRC fourth gen SCs can spit out a kilovolt so it won't be a problem for long. I hope.

I thought 3rd gens were like 250 kW?  Not many cars are able to accept more than that.  Lucid, the Korean twins, and the Taycan?  Is that it?
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2024 Miata Grand Touring

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV, '23 Subaru BRZ

MrH

Wild the EX30 is just now getting to the US. I reserved one ages ago.  Tons of software problems with them in Europe now.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2024 Miata Grand Touring

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV, '23 Subaru BRZ