Mass. looking to raise license age to 17.5

[saxonyron]

I know when I was 16, this would all seem like a cruel joke.  But, now that I've got kids approaching this age (14 is the oldest), I think it's a fine idea.  My wife and I already decided long ago that no licenses till they're 17 1/2 anyway - when they go to college.  It sucks, but I know too many situations where serious crap happens and young inexperienced drivers would be in big trouble.  The extra year counts a lot when it comes to judgment.  Adding to my bias:

- 4 serious accidents right in front of my house (on a quiet dirt road, BTW) all with cars/SUVs piloted by 16 or 17 yr olds.
- My sister's friend's son swerved to avoid a racoon on a quiet low-speed road not 2 miles from his house.  Off road, into a tree - dead.
- Local 16 yr old in Mom's Explorer hot foots around a corner a mile from my house, rolls, gets ejected, dead.
- Just yesterday, 16 yr old girl takes 10 yr old brother in mom's '01 Saab for some sort of legitimate errand.  A mile or so from home, apparently speeding, she lost control of the car, off road, into tree, both of them dead.  WTF?

The list goes on.  Of course, every age gets into accidents.  Old people who can't see or react properly should have their licenses pulled too, but the statistics speak loudly.  According to the  news, 30% of 16 yr olds get involved in a "serious" accident.  Not sure how they define that, but the truth is the percentage is way higher than average.  

So waddaya think?  I know what most of you guys will say ( ), but waiting the extra year and maybe not killing yourself in the process might just be worth it.

[JYODER240]

It wont help anything. Kids are still going to drive like idiots when they first get their liscence's, they just need to get it out of their system then they'll slow down.

[Lazerous]

Actually I agree 100%, my sister is 15 and has her permit now and honestly I dont want her to get her liscense due to her own safety, even though I have driven with her before and she is a pretty darn good driver, but like you said that extra year can help. But during that year I hope you will let your kids drive with you by their side, ofcourse, right? Cause an extra year without any driving wont really improve anything

[Lazerous]

It wont help anything. Kids are still going to drive like idiots when they first get their liscence's, they just need to get it out of their system then they'll slow down.

Somewhat true, unless you let them drive along your side from 15 until they are 17 or 17.5 and then they can get their liscense and I am sure in those 2 years they would have learned a good amount

[JYODER240]

They are still going to do stupid things while driving, like speeding, making dangerous passes, trying to push the limits, etc. You could raise the age to 21 but they are still going to want that adrenaline rush of doing crazy things with their cars. After teens have been driving for a few months they tend to stop doing those crazy things because like I said they are just gettin it out of their system.  

[Lazerous]

They are still going to do stupid things while driving, like speeding, making dangerous passes, trying to push the limits, etc. You could raise the age to 21 but they are still going to want that adrenaline rush of doing crazy things with their cars. After teens have been driving for a few months they tend to stop doing those crazy things because like I said they are just gettin it out of their system.

Cant really argue their since I was like that, although I did get my Liscense 2 months after I turned 16, but that was due to my own laziness :P

[JYODER240]

They are still going to do stupid things while driving, like speeding, making dangerous passes, trying to push the limits, etc. You could raise the age to 21 but they are still going to want that adrenaline rush of doing crazy things with their cars. After teens have been driving for a few months they tend to stop doing those crazy things because like I said they are just gettin it out of their system.

Cant really argue their since I was like that, although I did get my Liscense 2 months after I turned 16, but that was due to my own laziness :P

:blink:  I got mine about 30min after the BMV opened on my 16th b-day

[saxonyron]

They'll be driving next to me as soon as it's legal (propbably even sooner - in parking lots, etc.  I already let my 6 yr old son drive the lawn tractor and our Yamaha golf cart solo.  He's a friggin amazing driver, backing up the golf cart with a dump cart trailer. But the maturity and judgment that everyone gains from 16 to 17 truly makes a big difference.

We also don't let the kids drive with their friends, either.  One girl is 16 and drives a huge K5 Blazer.  It's safe and all, and she's the most amazing kid - I would trust her with my life, but not driving!    

[Lazerous]

They are still going to do stupid things while driving, like speeding, making dangerous passes, trying to push the limits, etc. You could raise the age to 21 but they are still going to want that adrenaline rush of doing crazy things with their cars. After teens have been driving for a few months they tend to stop doing those crazy things because like I said they are just gettin it out of their system.

Cant really argue their since I was like that, although I did get my Liscense 2 months after I turned 16, but that was due to my own laziness :P

:blink:  I got mine about 30min after the BMV opened on my 16th b-day

Hey man, what can I say, its not like I never drove alone even with my permit, so thats why I wasnt too anxious to get my liscense, until one day I woke up and said to myself "Im sick of having my permit and being scared everytime a cop passes by me when I am driving alone, I think ima go get my liscense now" So I went that day, I didnt even feel like studying for the damn test, and I didnt, I went and passed both the sign test and the road rules test :P

[Rupert]

There may be a maturity jump from sixteen to seventeen, but it's not big enough to make much difference. If we're gonna make people wait until they're mature enough to not want to slide corners as soon as they get their license, it's gonna have to be twenty. (Yeah, some people are that mature at sixteen, but I know plenty of dumbass immature college seniors). And that's ridiculous.

[ifcar]

I'd rather see them raise the standards required to get a driver's license than see them just change the age around.  

[dazzleman]

I'd rather see them raise the standards required to get a driver's license than see them just change the age around.

I agree.  I also think it's good for kids to learn to drive while they're still under their parents' supervision to some degree.  If they learn at the same time they go off to college, I think they might be getting too many freedoms at one time.

Younger drivers cause more than their share of accidents for two reasons:  1. inexperience; and 2. immaturity.

Raising the driving age does nothing for the inexperience issue.  However, tighter training requirements and higher licensing standards might.

As far as the immaturity issue goes, depending upon the person, you'd have to raise the driving age to about 25 to get beyond most of that.  And that's not feasible.

So I really don't think this proposal is the answer.

[saxonyron]

MOTOR VEHICLE DEATHS
PER 100,000 PERSONS BY AGE, 2004 (edit)




Of course, this graph shows that 20-24 yr olds are almost as bad!  I wish it showed an actual breakout per age instead of grouping them.  Doing a little more research, I found this clip:

"In the USA, the accident rate per mile for drivers in the 16-19 age group is four times higher than among older drivers. What is even more frightening is that the youngest drivers are the most dangerous. The accident rate per mile for 16-year-old drivers is three times higher than for 19-year-old drivers.

Scientists have found that the region of the brain that inhibits risky behavior does not fully form until the person is 25-years-old. That means that a 16-year-old driver is seriously not ready to perceive the risks of driving a car. And they really cannot help it. No amount of teaching, training and practicing can help them."



Everyone is high risk til 25, but of course that brain development is continuously improving (it's not like flipping a switch at 25 and bam you're a safe mature driver.  I'm not saying I believe this is the case for everyone - maturity rates differ, but laws don't care about that.  (good thing Lebowski waited till he was 25 to get his Vette!    )

[ifcar]

Is the number of drivers considered a factor? I'd be inclined to think that there are just more drivers in the 20-24 age bracket than the 16-19.

[saxonyron]

I'd rather see them raise the standards required to get a driver's license than see them just change the age around.

I agree.  I also think it's good for kids to learn to drive while they're still under their parents' supervision to some degree.  If they learn at the same time they go off to college, I think they might be getting too many freedoms at one time.

Younger drivers cause more than their share of accidents for two reasons:  1. inexperience; and 2. immaturity.

Raising the driving age does nothing for the inexperience issue.  However, tighter training requirements and higher licensing standards might.

As far as the immaturity issue goes, depending upon the person, you'd have to raise the driving age to about 25 to get beyond most of that.  And that's not feasible.

So I really don't think this proposal is the answer.

Definitely agree with you both on the training issue.   The way we approach driving is a joke.  The German model seems like a better idea.  Maybe Christian can fill in some of the details, but I remember it being a lot more rigorous than our retarded Drivers' "Education".

Maybe a combination of better training and more restrictions (passengers, cell phone use, bigger penalties for violations, etc.) would work just as well.  I'm just extra jaded by this by my own experience.  I was in my driveway removing an infant seat with my son in it after my wife returned from shopping.  It was about 2 minutes after she pulled in the driveway.  I heard the roar of an engine and spitting gravel as a car loaded with 2 16 yr old bimbos (driver had been licenced less than 2 months IIRC).  I jumped up to watch as it went sideways and rolled, went airborn bouncing off a tree, resting on its side, bimbo rap music still blasting out of the open windows.  The two (unfortunately unhurt) bitches climbed out the top window, nervously pacing and lighting cigarettes, looking absolutely pissed that, like, ya know, now we're not going to get to like the mall, dude.   I could have shot them both.  Of course, had they decided to stop ladelling makeup and hit the road 2 minutes earlier, they would have easily killed my wife in front of my driveway.

[saxonyron]

Is the number of drivers considered a factor? I'd be inclined to think that there are just more drivers in the 20-24 age bracket than the 16-19.

Sorry - the chart heading didn't come over in the jpg file....I'll edit that up.

MOTOR VEHICLE DEATHS
PER 100,000 PERSONS BY AGE, 2004

[ifcar]

Per 100,000 people or 100,000 drivers?

[saxonyron]

Per 100,000 people or 100,000 drivers?

People - the graph goes to 3 yrs old!  

The obvious spike comes when the 16 yr olds start driving.  Being a passenger at 5 or 15 doesn't seem too dangerous according to the graph.

[ifcar]

It was a rhetorical question. There are far more people driving in the 20-24 bracket than there are in the 16-19 bracket, and no restrictions on passengers (I know there are in MD for new drivers, there was a big controversy about it). That makes the 16-19 numbers all the more significant, and would further eclipse the 20-24 bracket if corrections were made.

[crv16]

My oldest daughter is 16 1/2 right now.  I've taken her out a few times in my Civic.  It's been pretty hair-raising to say the least.  She has very little sense of the the seriousness of driving.   She seems to treat it much like a video game, except in real life there's no "reset" button.  Plus she's got that rebellious "you don't know shit Dad" attitude going on.  Grrr....

Given this, I'm going to wait a year or so to start up again with her.  

On the other hand, I'd feel comfortable with my 12 year old son behind the wheel.  He's got a good head on his shoulders and has a good amount of common sense.

I think that driving ages should be left alone, but the parents should exercise more common sense deciding when to allow their children to drive.  

[Catman]

I agree with this move wholeheartedly.  Keeping kids from their license while their in high school is good.  Not only will this reduce the dumb crap that happens on the weekends but it will also solve the overcrowding at the school parking lots.  

[Colonel Cadillac]

Well, if they are going to raise the driving age, they better as hell lower the drinking age! The whole reason the drinking age is so high is because the driving age is so low. In any rate, I would be extremely angry if they screwed me, as a car enthusiast, getting my license was something I had been looking forward for quite a long time!

Although, in the end, I live in Connecticut, and already have my license.  

[so cal cookie]

I'd rather see them raise the standards required to get a driver's license than see them just change the age around.

My thoughts exactly.
I was happy to get my license, but the process was just too easy.  

[footoflead]

They'll be driving next to me as soon as it's legal (propbably even sooner - in parking lots, etc.  I already let my 6 yr old son drive the lawn tractor and our Yamaha golf cart solo.  He's a friggin amazing driver, backing up the golf cart with a dump cart trailer. But the maturity and judgment that everyone gains from 16 to 17 truly makes a big difference.

We also don't let the kids drive with their friends, either.  One girl is 16 and drives a huge K5 Blazer.  It's safe and all, and she's the most amazing kid - I would trust her with my life, but not driving!

Thats the way to do it sax...let them drive golf carts around or even drive an old beat up truck around in an open field...its not full proof but it will definitly help them feel better on the road, i know it helped me especially when i started driving the mustang on the road

Also you will want to consider whether you let them drive with friends, i know my parents trusted me a little too much to be honest, they might hate you for a while but kids my age are a million times more likely to do something stupid to impress their friends and what not (speaking from experience)

And i would also even after they get there license i wouldnt let them drive by them selfs for some time, because even though you've gone through the permit period and have basic control down they are still developing skills and are still learning to judge speed and distance of on coming cars

But i think one of the more valuable things i did while i was in Drivers Ed was this thing they called "Skid Monster"  Basically they took one of the schools cars and put basically a giant shopping cart wheels on the back and they are locked in place until you pull the pin and then the instructor has you drive towards a bunch of cones set up to where you have to go either left or right and he will yell it at you, pull the pin (so the casters will move freely) and it imitates a slide and you have to 'save it' and avoid the cones...now its not full proof (but that was because i was getting my thrill when i shouldnt have been and the fact its alot harder to save a truck in a slide), but it definitly helped...

And i must say this, just about anybody that can read can get a drivers license these days, about half the people on the road shouldnt be, i swear half the people around here get there license's from walmart or something...

[Raza]

Yes, this makes loads of sense.  Kids need license to go to jobs and what not, and holding it off for about another year and a half will make kids go crazy.  This will do more harm than good.  

[saxonyron]

FOL and Raza, I'm probably fine with keeping the age the same, but there really needs to be strict limitations on the driving.  No passengers under 25, death penalty for cell phone use, strung up by the balls for more than one moving violation the 1st 12 months, etc.  I remember when I first drove, put a buddy in the car, all of a sudden I didn't want to look like a pussy, so I'd fly around corners, etc.  Judgment was lacking - I didn't know what a reasonable speed was, and I certainly didn't know what a spirited speed was.  I was damn lucky.

Either way, I won't be letting my kids get licenses till 17 1/2, and they won't be driving with any friends who haven't been driving at least a year and are 17 1/2 or more.  Tough titties.

[saxonyron]

Yes, this makes loads of sense.  Kids need license to go to jobs and what not, and holding it off for about another year and a half will make kids go crazy.  This will do more harm than good.

And they're not crazy already??    

[footoflead]

FOL and Raza, I'm probably fine with keeping the age the same, but there really needs to be strict limitations on the driving.  No passengers under 25, death penalty for cell phone use, strung up by the balls for more than one moving violation the 1st 12 months, etc.  I remember when I first drove, put a buddy in the car, all of a sudden I didn't want to look like a pussy, so I'd fly around corners, etc.  Judgment was lacking - I didn't know what a reasonable speed was, and I certainly didn't know what a spirited speed was.  I was damn lucky.

Either way, I won't be letting my kids get licenses till 17 1/2, and they won't be driving with any friends who haven't been driving at least a year and are 17 1/2 or more.  Tough titties.

Another thing...alot of kids these days are working and need to get back and forth to places..and mommy and daddy cant always take them there....also i know i'm not the only person heavily involved in after school activities which usually occur every day of the week and alot of the time my parents have to make heavy sacrifices to get me there  

[TurboDan]

The age in NYS was always 17, so what's another six months?  

I also think better driver education would go a long way, but how much can we really do in the name of "protecting" teens?  By the time they're 17 years old, most have already done plenty of drinking at parties and have already tried a couple of other illegal substances.  And......  drinking and drugs are illegal as well.  The WORST thing a government can do is make driving yet another tabboo.  I think raising the age will simply push back the stats one year - you'll have lower numbers of 16 year olds killed and higher numbers of 17 year olds killed.

Another reason death rates are high for teens is because they usually drive POS rustbuckets that lack all of the safety features many of us have in our vehicles.  You can say that I'm bad for spoiling them rotten, but when I have kids, they'll be getting a reliable, well-handling European vehicle with every safety bell and whistle available.  AWD Volvo, Saab or BMW, for sure.

Oh, and do you want your kids to concentrate on THE ROAD and DRIVING rather than cell phones and other distractions?  TEACH THEM TO DRIVE A MANUAL!!!!!  That requires ALOT more attention to driving habits and you become one with the vehicle in many ways.  I'd LOVE to see that "death chart" broken down by auto vs. manual.  I think it really would make a difference!

[dazzleman]

FOL and Raza, I'm probably fine with keeping the age the same, but there really needs to be strict limitations on the driving.  No passengers under 25, death penalty for cell phone use, strung up by the balls for more than one moving violation the 1st 12 months, etc.  I remember when I first drove, put a buddy in the car, all of a sudden I didn't want to look like a pussy, so I'd fly around corners, etc.  Judgment was lacking - I didn't know what a reasonable speed was, and I certainly didn't know what a spirited speed was.  I was damn lucky.

Either way, I won't be letting my kids get licenses till 17 1/2, and they won't be driving with any friends who haven't been driving at least a year and are 17 1/2 or more.  Tough titties.

The point about friends in the car is a good one Ron, especially with respect to male drivers who have male friends in the car with them.

The young male driver-young male friend combo is a combustible one.  Male friends also encourage, either deliberately or inadvertently, other young males to engage in risk-taking and thrill-seeking activity.  Even now, at my age, I find that I drive faster if I have a male buddy in the car with me, as opposed to a female, or an older person.

With girls, the danger is somewhat different.  Girls put less attention into their driving, and are more apt to have a lot of distractions while they are driving.  This produces less serious accidents than the typical male risk-taking behavior, but is dangerous nonetheless.