Income Based Fines

[Rupert]

Just curious... Have any of you spent much time in the lowest tax bracket? That is, poor as shit? How long ago was it, and did you have the same ideas and opinions then?

[dazzleman]

Just curious... Have any of you spent much time in the lowest tax bracket? That is, poor as shit? How long ago was it, and did you have the same ideas and opinions then?

Most people are in the lowest tax bracket when they're young enough.  I was, but I have never been in it as a full-time working adult.

Still, I got a few tickets when I was in that lowest tax bracket.  Since I was still able to afford the fine easily, I didn't give any thought to the idea that somebody with a higher income ought to pay a lot more for the same offense.

And of course, fines are not like taxes.  One can avoid them simply by obeying the law.  The issue with fines is not what is fair to different income levels, but what is the most effective penalty to prevent unwanted behavior.

It's hard for me to feel sorry for people who violate the law, then claim they can't afford the fines.  Don't do the crime if you can't handle the penalty.

[L. ed foote]

Just curious... Have any of you spent much time in the lowest tax bracket? That is, poor as shit? How long ago was it, and did you have the same ideas and opinions then?

I've spent time there, when I was in college, I suppose.

Moving up, I've still maintained my view on taxes, I just want everyone to pay their fair share.

[L. ed foote]

And it creates a built-in incentive for the police to target people with expensive cars for tickets, since that will yield a lot more revenue and, whatever they say, one way or another they will be rewarded for bringing in greater amounts of revenue.

You do understand this is the logic people use for DWB, DWH, or any other combination of minorites being hassled by "the man"

[dazzleman]

And it creates a built-in incentive for the police to target people with expensive cars for tickets, since that will yield a lot more revenue and, whatever they say, one way or another they will be rewarded for bringing in greater amounts of revenue.

You do understand this is the logic people use for DWB, DWH, or any other combination of minorites being hassled by "the man"

Foote, do we need to talk down to each other, when we're supposed to be friends?

How is it that black or hispanic motorists will yield greater revenue than white motorists if you give them a ticket?

I understand that blacks and other minorities get stopped more in white areas than white people do.  OTOH, if I go into certain black neighborhoods with my car and the way I look, some people will assume I'm there for illegal purposes, and I stand a greater chance of getting stopped.  So in a certain sense, it works both ways.

I understand the reasons for both of these phenomena.  But the motivation for it doesn't appear to be a purely financial one, unless I'm not smart enough to see why a speeding ticket given to a black guy earns the state more money than one given to a white guy.

[Rupert]

The logic is that a black guy is more likely to be doing something big wrong than a white guy, so the black guy is more likely to get a bigger ticket.

[dazzleman]

The logic is that a black guy is more likely to be doing something big wrong than a white guy, so the black guy is more likely to get a bigger ticket.

That issue isn't about tickets.  It's about arrests for more serious crimes.  That doesn't lead to greater revenue for the state.

[TBR]

Just curious... Have any of you spent much time in the lowest tax bracket? That is, poor as shit? How long ago was it, and did you have the same ideas and opinions then?

I am definitely in the lowest bracket, but I also have very few expenses (insurance and gas, that is it). The solution, imho, is still to get reduce the size of the government drastically (if there are any welfare programs they should be need based! Social security and medicare aren't!) so that all people can be taxed on a flat rate which would ideally be lower than that of the current lowest tax bracket.    

[saxonyron]

Just curious... Have any of you spent much time in the lowest tax bracket? That is, poor as shit? How long ago was it, and did you have the same ideas and opinions then?

I spent far too long in the lowest tax bracket - when I started my business in '91, I was living on virtually zero income for almost 4 yrs.  I worked the midnite shift as a security guard in a shithole apartment complex in Lowell, MA making $6.50 an hour so I could keep a roof over my wife and (at the time) 2 kids' heads.  This was while I worked my ass off 12 hrs a day getting my business running and my wife worked for about $12/hr part time.  My car was repo-ed, house was on the verge of foreclosure, etc.  I was no trust-fund kid who had parents to set me up in a fat business deal.  

My political philosophy was quite a bit more hard core back then - hardline conservative with no tolerance for mush minded liberal BS.  My philosophy was "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, blame no one but yourself, save your own ass because no one else will or should."

[dazzleman]

Just curious... Have any of you spent much time in the lowest tax bracket? That is, poor as shit? How long ago was it, and did you have the same ideas and opinions then?

I spent far too long in the lowest tax bracket - when I started my business in '91, I was living on virtually zero income for almost 4 yrs.  I worked the midnite shift as a security guard in a shithole apartment complex in Lowell, MA making $6.50 an hour so I could keep a roof over my wife and (at the time) 2 kids' heads.  This was while I worked my ass off 12 hrs a day getting my business running and my wife worked for about $12/hr part time.  My car was repo-ed, house was on the verge of foreclosure, etc.  I was no trust-fund kid who had parents to set me up in a fat business deal.  

My political philosophy was quite a bit more hard core back then - hardline conservative with no tolerance for mush minded liberal BS.  My philosophy was "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, blame no one but yourself, save your own ass because no one else will or should."

Interesting story, Ron.

This is what so many people don't think about when they see a guy with a successful business.  They think it all just fell into his lap.

Almost anybody who is successful has gone through some type of tough times.  Most successful people have made great sacrifices for their success.

I hate the philosophy that seems to assume that whether a person is successful or not is purely luck.  There is luck involved, no doubt, but it's not all luck.  Many of the people who remain in the lowest income categories long-term made conscious choices that put them there.

[saxonyron]

Just curious... Have any of you spent much time in the lowest tax bracket? That is, poor as shit? How long ago was it, and did you have the same ideas and opinions then?

I am definitely in the lowest bracket, but I also have very few expenses (insurance and gas, that is it). The solution, imho, is still to get reduce the size of the government drastically (if there are any welfare programs they should be need based! Social security and medicare aren't!) so that all people can be taxed on a flat rate which would ideally be lower than that of the current lowest tax bracket.

Way to go TBR!  There are 2 good ways to cut back government spending.  First is the elimination of pork barrel projects, special interest giveaways, and sweetheart business deals.  This is the stuff that makes good and easy headlines. But the biggest savings would be realized just tackling "Fraud Waste and Abuse".  I challenge anyone who knows how any goverment office "works" to disprove that the payroll budget could be cut by 30% or more and no one would notice any drop in productivity.  

The amount of fraud in government is staggering.  I worked for 2 yrs as a civilian engineer for the Air Force.  I had to leave since the waste and BS was driving me nuts!    Dig deeper, and you'll find stuff that'll make you hurl.  The combination of corrupt incompetent government boobs and corrupt money grubbing businesses makes for some amazing stories of waste. As long as the system remains status quo, there's little hope for reining in spending.  Oh yeah, add in a boatload of lobbyist and weak asshat congressmen, and there's little hope for changing the system!    

[sparkplug]

The governments in Europe are a wasteful and fruitless bunch. So it would seem so that some countries would try to fine their citizens in a way to fill their pockets.

[J86]

The governments in Europe are a wasteful and fruitless bunch. So it would seem so that some countries would try to fine their citizens in a way to fill their pockets.

Yet in a country like Denmark, they have a higher standard of living than we do, universal healthcare, 100% literacy, and no one is left destitute and homeless in the streets.  Yes, their system is real fruitless, and the fleecing of their citizens obviously does no good.

Do you even realize that the United States spends a higher percentage of our GDP on healthcare than any other industrialized nation in the world?  It would be CHEAPER for us to have a national healthcare system, and then it would also be available to everyone, not only those who are so fortunate as to have the financial wherewithal to afford it.

As to the common complaint that government is wasteful and corrupt- so fix it!  Government doesn't HAVE to be full of slimeballs, it is US who put them in positions of power!

[sparkplug]

You raises a good point. People and businesses are somewhat crooked. They want the almighty dollar more than they desire to help the poor and needy.

[J86]

You raises a good point. People and businesses are somewhat crooked. They want the almighty dollar more than they desire to help the poor and needy.

Which is why relying on the almighty market, unregulated, to solve social malaises is not a valid solution.

[Raza]

What do you guys think of the Finnish system of assessing traffic fines?

:monkey:

Agreed.

[dazzleman]

You raises a good point. People and businesses are somewhat crooked. They want the almighty dollar more than they desire to help the poor and needy.

Which is why relying on the almighty market, unregulated, to solve social malaises is not a valid solution.

Josh, I don't think too many people believe the free market system will solve all problems.

The issue is whether well-intentioned interference with the free market system will in many cases create more problems than it solves.  This is often the case.  

There will always be problems; it's a matter of how to minimize them, and what the price for doing so will be.