New car

[Tom]

I would go for a GTO without much of a thought.  It's not like you're a 32 year old man with 2 kids and a wife you need to drive to church.

I understand his sentiment, though.  The GTO is clearly a better car to drive than any of those, and as Top Gear demonstrated, the car will drop an M3 around their track, so performance simply isn't a question with the GTO.  He wants a sunroof, and I can certainly commiserate with that sentiment holding him back.  If it's something like "Pontiac's not upscale enough" or "It looks like a Cavalier" or "The interior plastics aren't soft-touch" then I'm smack him.

The only reason I can see for a car enthusiast to buy a 325i is if they are in need of a compromise.  Maybe they have kids, need cargo room, or need a car to suit the corporate image.  This way you can fulfill those requirements while still driving a fun car.

Now, if you have nothing holding you back and you choose a BMW 325i over a GTO then you are simply not a car enthusiast.  And that's fine, but you obviously value luxury, heated seats, a sunroof, etc over pure, sports car performance(escecially MUCH faster acceleration).

[Raza]

I would go for a GTO without much of a thought.  It's not like you're a 32 year old man with 2 kids and a wife you need to drive to church.

I understand his sentiment, though.  The GTO is clearly a better car to drive than any of those, and as Top Gear demonstrated, the car will drop an M3 around their track, so performance simply isn't a question with the GTO.  He wants a sunroof, and I can certainly commiserate with that sentiment holding him back.  If it's something like "Pontiac's not upscale enough" or "It looks like a Cavalier" or "The interior plastics aren't soft-touch" then I'm smack him.

The only reason I can see for a car enthusiast to buy a 325i is if they are in need of a compromise.  Maybe they have kids, need cargo room, or need a car to suit the corporate image.  This way you can fulfill those requirements while still driving a fun car.

Now, if you have nothing holding you back and you choose a BMW 325i over a GTO then you are simply not a car enthusiast.  And that's fine, but you obviously value luxury, heated seats, a sunroof, etc over pure, sports car performance(escecially MUCH faster acceleration).

Yeah, I'm with you completely.

[SJ_GTI]

I would go for a GTO without much of a thought.? It's not like you're a 32 year old man with 2 kids and a wife you need to drive to church.

I understand his sentiment, though.  The GTO is clearly a better car to drive than any of those, and as Top Gear demonstrated, the car will drop an M3 around their track, so performance simply isn't a question with the GTO.  He wants a sunroof, and I can certainly commiserate with that sentiment holding him back.  If it's something like "Pontiac's not upscale enough" or "It looks like a Cavalier" or "The interior plastics aren't soft-touch" then I'm smack him.

The only reason I can see for a car enthusiast to buy a 325i is if they are in need of a compromise.  Maybe they have kids, need cargo room, or need a car to suit the corporate image.  This way you can fulfill those requirements while still driving a fun car.

Now, if you have nothing holding you back and you choose a BMW 325i over a GTO then you are simply not a car enthusiast.  And that's fine, but you obviously value luxury, heated seats, a sunroof, etc over pure, sports car performance(escecially MUCH faster acceleration).

Yeah, I'm with you completely.

You guys are funny.

[ifcar]

I would go for a GTO without much of a thought.  It's not like you're a 32 year old man with 2 kids and a wife you need to drive to church.

I understand his sentiment, though.  The GTO is clearly a better car to drive than any of those, and as Top Gear demonstrated, the car will drop an M3 around their track, so performance simply isn't a question with the GTO.  He wants a sunroof, and I can certainly commiserate with that sentiment holding him back.  If it's something like "Pontiac's not upscale enough" or "It looks like a Cavalier" or "The interior plastics aren't soft-touch" then I'm smack him.

The only reason I can see for a car enthusiast to buy a 325i is if they are in need of a compromise.  Maybe they have kids, need cargo room, or need a car to suit the corporate image.  This way you can fulfill those requirements while still driving a fun car.

Now, if you have nothing holding you back and you choose a BMW 325i over a GTO then you are simply not a car enthusiast.  And that's fine, but you obviously value luxury, heated seats, a sunroof, etc over pure, sports car performance(escecially MUCH faster acceleration).

Aside from the sheer grunt, I'd say that a 325i is more fun to drive than a GTO. I prefer the BMW's shifter, steering, and handling.  

[Tom]

This comes from the thread about winning the lottery.  What would ifcar buy if he won?

"Even with that much cash, I probably wouldn't buy anything outlandishly expensive. I'd get an 06 Focus ZXW for around $16k, and a used 05 Freestyle AWD for maybe $20k."

[ifcar]

Relevent how?

[Tom]

Relevent how?

You said the 325i is more fun than the GTO.  I'm just showing whom that opinion came from.  No offense.

[ifcar]

I didn't say that I didn't pick fun over practicality for myself. I didn't say the 3-Series was better in general. I only said that I found it much more fun to drive. Do you have any sort of reason besides unsubtle ad hominem that you think what I said was invalid?

[Tom]

I didn't say that I didn't pick fun over practicality for myself. I didn't say the 3-Series was better in general. I only said that I found it much more fun to drive. Do you have any sort of reason besides unsubtle ad hominem that you think what I said was invalid?

Ok, I had to look up that word.  I'm not trying to discredit a claim by attacking the person.  The same person that would pick a Freestyle or a Focus would pick a 325i over a GTO.

I claimed in my first post that the true car enthusiast would pick the GTO because it is simply a better sports car.  I'm not saying anyone has to be a "true car enthusiast."

[ifcar]

Once again, I did not say that I would "take" the 3-Series over the GTO. Practicality is not a factor in what I said, which wasn't in any way vague or unclear: "Aside from the sheer grunt, I'd say that a 325i is more fun to drive than a GTO. I prefer the BMW's shifter, steering, and handling."

[Tom]

Once again, I did not say that I would "take" the 3-Series over the GTO. Practicality is not a factor in what I said, which wasn't in any way vague or unclear: "Aside from the sheer grunt, I'd say that a 325i is more fun to drive than a GTO. I prefer the BMW's shifter, steering, and handling."

You said the 325i is more fun than the GTO.

[ifcar]

That's exactly right. You've said nothing to counter that, except suggest that I only like practical cars, and say that the GTO is a better sports car, a claim that you did not explain and that will cost you Raza's support.  

[Tom]

That's exactly right. You've said nothing to counter that, except suggest that I only like practical cars, and say that the GTO is a better sports car, a claim that you did not explain and that will cost you Raza's support.

faster
handles better
lighter
can own on track

You know, the things that make a sports car a sports car.  I don't know why you're getting upset.

[ifcar]

That's exactly right. You've said nothing to counter that, except suggest that I only like practical cars, and say that the GTO is a better sports car, a claim that you did not explain and that will cost you Raza's support.

faster
I never disagreed.
handles better
Maybe on a track, but certainly not at all on the road.
lighter
Heavier, by some 500 lbs.
can own on track
When acceleration is a factor, it had better win.

You know, the things that make a sports car a sports car.  I don't know why you're getting upset.

No point in buying a sports or sporty car that isn't as fun to drive on the road as something else that could be substituted within reason, unless roads are a secondary use for the car. That doesn't seem to be Cosmic's case.

Sacrificing how fast a car goes around a racetrack for how much fun a car is to drive while you're actually driving it hardly seems like a compromise that makes someone less of a car enthusiast.  

[Tom]

That's exactly right. You've said nothing to counter that, except suggest that I only like practical cars, and say that the GTO is a better sports car, a claim that you did not explain and that will cost you Raza's support.

faster
I never disagreed.
handles better
Maybe on a track, but certainly not at all on the road.
lighter
Heavier, by some 500 lbs.
can own on track
When acceleration is a factor, it had better win.

You know, the things that make a sports car a sports car.  I don't know why you're getting upset.

No point in buying a sports or sporty car that isn't as fun to drive on the road as something else that could be substituted within reason, unless roads are a secondary use for the car. That doesn't seem to be Cosmic's case.

Sacrificing how fast a car goes around a racetrack for how much fun a car is to drive while you're actually driving it hardly seems like a compromise that makes someone less of a car enthusiast.

I thought the GTO was lighter by a little bit.  Ah well.

Again, I'm saying that in a sports car comparison, the GTO wins.  However, this is Matt's thread and if he is not looking for a pure sports car that is fine by me.  I hope he will update soon.

So far I have read that you prefer the 325i because it has a better shifter and steering feel, and that is opinion.  My view is that if a car is better on a track, it is better on a road.  I wouldn't overlook acceleration.  There are many a chance to briskly accelerate on Deleware's rural roads.

[ifcar]

Put all things together, and the 325i is much more fun to drive on a public road than a GTO. Preferring that trait to the car that's a faster toy on a race track does not make one less of a car enthusiast.  

[cozmik]

Haha, I should've known this thread would turn into this.

I was behind the wheel of a GTO today moving it from service PDI to the lot, it is a very fast car. And the one I was driving was the automatic even.

Still, it is also a very large car it seems. I also forgot it doesn't have automatic climate control. The audio system blows too. But it is fast and handles very well. Seats are comfortable. When I had driven the 6 speed a month or so back, it was a nice unit. In terms of how it drives, I like it a lot. But in terms of the features I would like in my next car, it's really lacking. It packs a lot of performance in for the price, but whenever I look at it, I find little things that bother me. I realized that the GTO key is the cousin of the 9-7x key today, for example. And I didn't realize the audio system was so weak either.

I saw a couple 325s on the BMW lot today, and they made me think more about them. At the same time, despite not having a Saab franchise, when I was driving my mother's 9-3 Aero with the V6, I wanted another 9-3, but Aero V6 this time.

ifcar: I've looked at the Accords before and the Pontiac/GMC and Honda showrooms are  connected, and the Accord just isn't anything that really strikes my fancy.

[ifcar]

Didn't think so, but figured it was worth a mention. In a similar vein, how about a G6 GTP?

[850CSi]

Okay, I skimmed this thread, and I'll toss in some input.


I think everyone would probably agree that - as a car - the 3-Series is the best entry-level sport sedan.

Here's the thing. I have a RWD 325i. Chicago's winters as far as slippery roads and snow can be like the cold side of hell to drive on. I never had any trouble. I one time purposely went into a gravel parking lot with slushy ice and snow around 5" deep and managed to get my self out. I've driven on completely snow-covered roads. By no means do you need AWD in a 3-series. Also, I imagine that finding a stick 325xi would be one hell of a task since I doubt there's a single xi sold to anyone who likes to drive unless they live in Alaska. Finding stick 325is wasn't easy to begin with because of how many women and lame sports-car wannabes buy these things.

Defenitely do NOT pay extra for leather. My dad's X3 has black leather. It's a little thicker and it feels a bit more upscale, but the leatherette is fantastic, doesn't reallly seem to have the negative aspects that other leatherettes I've had experience with do, and it needs a lot less maintenence. BTW I think black is actually the best interior color choice on the 3.

Go for the stick, of course. When I first got it I complained like a bitch about the Clutch Delay Valve in all new BMWs and even though I'd still prefer not to have it my experience was probably magnified by the fact that my ex-A4s tranny was VERY different.

Unless you're willing to spend a lot of time cleaning, don't get black. I love it, it's beautiful when its clean, but it becomes butt-ugly during the winter when you can't really wash easily. Get the Dark Gray color (I forgot what it's called). I wasn't able to, and that's why I went for black in the end. Get the sport package, too. Those are the only things I would change about my car. I plan on shelling out some cash some time next summer to get summer rims and summer tires (As opposed to the standard all-season Turanza run-flats) and tighten up the suspension a little bit (Even though body roll is already minimal).

I'm around the 6500 mile mark right now. Every morning I look forward to my drive to school. Oh, and C/D weren't joking when they clocked it at 6.1 to 60. I'm pretty sure I've done runs that were close to that number (and without destroying my clutch).



*Waiting for Raza to call me a girl*

[cozmik]

Didn't think so, but figured it was worth a mention. In a similar vein, how about a G6 GTP?

I sell Pontiacs, and well, no, just no. Great car for many people who don't like to drive, but not for me. Besides, no one orders G6's with a stick. My dealer won't because they don't sell. GTP I'd only be able to get 4 speed auto.


Faris: I personally didn't have any issues with the clutch when I test drove, but I also wasn't coming off a stick shift car, so that could be it.

I could get a 325i with sport, heated seats, and xenons for a little over 34k sticker. I could probably do 32k with my job. Not totally sure on that though, but a good guess I'd say.

[Raghavan]

Get the 325, but not the Xi.

[saxonyron]

Realizing you live in Delaware, I'd agree that AWD is really not a big need.  The one warm weather benefit that AWD gets you is extra stability in heavy rain, but I imagine the ESP takes care of most of those issues.  Regarding leasing, in my case it worked out.  Two primary reasons - I own my own business and it's a nice clean writeoff, and the leasing terms were very favorable. I did all the spreadsheets allowing for purchasing, comparable interest rates, depreciation, etc, and the leasing came out very far ahead.  Of course, in 2 yrs when it's up, the lease deals might not be so good, and I'll be buying.  (I included 25,000 mi/yr into my lease and at 15 cents/mile, it's a hell of a deal.)  

I'd recommend at least having the sales person run numbers both ways and see what makes sense.  You might stumble onto a smoking hot lease deal and be kicking yourself for not jumping at it.  However, if you don't drive much and plan on keeping the car for 4 or 5 yrs, buying is probably a better option, because at some point the car will be paid for and you'll have a few "free" years. For me, I'm resigned to always having car payments due to the mileage that I put on the car and my lack of desire to drive a car with over 100k miles.  

[Lebowski]

Okay, I skimmed this thread, and I'll toss in some input.


I think everyone would probably agree that - as a car - the 3-Series is the best entry-level sport sedan.

Here's the thing. I have a RWD 325i. Chicago's winters as far as slippery roads and snow can be like the cold side of hell to drive on. I never had any trouble. I one time purposely went into a gravel parking lot with slushy ice and snow around 5" deep and managed to get my self out. I've driven on completely snow-covered roads. By no means do you need AWD in a 3-series. Also, I imagine that finding a stick 325xi would be one hell of a task since I doubt there's a single xi sold to anyone who likes to drive unless they live in Alaska. Finding stick 325is wasn't easy to begin with because of how many women and lame sports-car wannabes buy these things.

Defenitely do NOT pay extra for leather. My dad's X3 has black leather. It's a little thicker and it feels a bit more upscale, but the leatherette is fantastic, doesn't reallly seem to have the negative aspects that other leatherettes I've had experience with do, and it needs a lot less maintenence. BTW I think black is actually the best interior color choice on the 3.

Go for the stick, of course. When I first got it I complained like a bitch about the Clutch Delay Valve in all new BMWs and even though I'd still prefer not to have it my experience was probably magnified by the fact that my ex-A4s tranny was VERY different.

Unless you're willing to spend a lot of time cleaning, don't get black. I love it, it's beautiful when its clean, but it becomes butt-ugly during the winter when you can't really wash easily. Get the Dark Gray color (I forgot what it's called). I wasn't able to, and that's why I went for black in the end. Get the sport package, too. Those are the only things I would change about my car. I plan on shelling out some cash some time next summer to get summer rims and summer tires (As opposed to the standard all-season Turanza run-flats) and tighten up the suspension a little bit (Even though body roll is already minimal).

I'm around the 6500 mile mark right now. Every morning I look forward to my drive to school. Oh, and C/D weren't joking when they clocked it at 6.1 to 60. I'm pretty sure I've done runs that were close to that number (and without destroying my clutch).



*Waiting for Raza to call me a girl*

You're a woman.







 

[Lebowski]

I'd recommend at least having the sales person run numbers both ways and see what makes sense.  You might stumble onto a smoking hot lease deal and be kicking yourself for not jumping at it.

I agree, the only caveat I'd add is have the salesperson run the numbers and tell you what the lease payment would be, but go home and look at the numbers in a spreadsheet (or financial calculator) so you can take your time and crunch the numbers without a salesperson breathing down your neck and trying to talk you into one option or the other.  Don't make the buy with cash vs. lease vs. finance decision at the dealership, at least not unless you can do complicated NPV calculations in your head (or did them beforehand and know off the top of your head what the terms need to be for it to work out).

[omicron]

Buy a GTO because it indirectly helps to boost my economy

[850CSi]

Yeah I agree with the other guys as far as leasing vs. buying. Just listen to Adam, he went to Duke and he knows what he's talking about.


My dad leases because he can write it off since he's a partner at his work.

[cozmik]

I'd recommend at least having the sales person run numbers both ways and see what makes sense.  You might stumble onto a smoking hot lease deal and be kicking yourself for not jumping at it.

I agree, the only caveat I'd add is have the salesperson run the numbers and tell you what the lease payment would be, but go home and look at the numbers in a spreadsheet (or financial calculator) so you can take your time and crunch the numbers without a salesperson breathing down your neck and trying to talk you into one option or the other.  Don't make the buy with cash vs. lease vs. finance decision at the dealership, at least not unless you can do complicated NPV calculations in your head (or did them beforehand and know off the top of your head what the terms need to be for it to work out).

Keeping in mind I am my own salesperson if I buy the BMW or Volvo... with my own dealer tag and own buyers orders and everything.  


I will have the numbers run though.


I hate having to choose. I want one of everything.    

[Raza]

I would go for a GTO without much of a thought.  It's not like you're a 32 year old man with 2 kids and a wife you need to drive to church.

I understand his sentiment, though.  The GTO is clearly a better car to drive than any of those, and as Top Gear demonstrated, the car will drop an M3 around their track, so performance simply isn't a question with the GTO.  He wants a sunroof, and I can certainly commiserate with that sentiment holding him back.  If it's something like "Pontiac's not upscale enough" or "It looks like a Cavalier" or "The interior plastics aren't soft-touch" then I'm smack him.

The only reason I can see for a car enthusiast to buy a 325i is if they are in need of a compromise.  Maybe they have kids, need cargo room, or need a car to suit the corporate image.  This way you can fulfill those requirements while still driving a fun car.

Now, if you have nothing holding you back and you choose a BMW 325i over a GTO then you are simply not a car enthusiast.  And that's fine, but you obviously value luxury, heated seats, a sunroof, etc over pure, sports car performance(escecially MUCH faster acceleration).

Aside from the sheer grunt, I'd say that a 325i is more fun to drive than a GTO. I prefer the BMW's shifter, steering, and handling.

If the 325i's handling is better than the GTO's, which I highly doubt it is significantly so, it is so marginal that the GTO would still be more fun to drive.  The power of the GTO, can at times detract from the driving experience, especially if one is not ready for it and does not respect its grandiosity.  It's the rest of the car that makes it so enjoyable.

[Raza]

I would go for a GTO without much of a thought.  It's not like you're a 32 year old man with 2 kids and a wife you need to drive to church.

I understand his sentiment, though.  The GTO is clearly a better car to drive than any of those, and as Top Gear demonstrated, the car will drop an M3 around their track, so performance simply isn't a question with the GTO.  He wants a sunroof, and I can certainly commiserate with that sentiment holding him back.  If it's something like "Pontiac's not upscale enough" or "It looks like a Cavalier" or "The interior plastics aren't soft-touch" then I'm smack him.

The only reason I can see for a car enthusiast to buy a 325i is if they are in need of a compromise.  Maybe they have kids, need cargo room, or need a car to suit the corporate image.  This way you can fulfill those requirements while still driving a fun car.

Now, if you have nothing holding you back and you choose a BMW 325i over a GTO then you are simply not a car enthusiast.  And that's fine, but you obviously value luxury, heated seats, a sunroof, etc over pure, sports car performance(escecially MUCH faster acceleration).

Yeah, I'm with you completely.

You guys are funny.

So you're saying the enthusiast decision is to buy a car that costs the same or more and doesn't perform nearly as well as the cheaper car?

It's not to say that the 325i is a bad car--it's a good one, that much cannot be disputed.  However, its only real advantages come through in the form of luxuries and the intangibles, such as having a luxury badge, as opposed to having a Pontiac arrow in your hood.  Then again, the GTO is an exclusive club compared to the 3 series.

[Raza]

*Waiting for Raza to call me a girl*

Nah, you're not a girl.  You just clearly don't like cars.



You chose a car that is as close to perfected as it could be (other than a lack of a slippy diff, iDrive, and the fact that it is so god damn ugly) and you can't really be faulted for that.  But as I said in that Mustang thread, we love imperfections, at least, that is how I often see things.  If I had been in your position, I'd have gotten a bit more of a quirky car (like the RX-8) or one with a narrower field of vision (the real intelligent pseudo-luxury, pseudo-muscle car, the G35).