New Mustangs?

[SVT666]

A little soon, but I think that the 4.6 in the GT could use another 50-100 horses, and a 6-speed tranny. This may sound picky, but that long, long radio antenna at the front has GOT to go. A smaller rubber one in the back would do fine.

Yes, you are being too picky  :P .

[Catman]

I have to agree with Hemi.  The consumer has never had it so good.  Whether it's a subcompact of a high end sports car there is a car for everyone out there.  And, the performance, reliabilty, value and quality has never been better.

[Raza]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on how history will portray this automotive era.  I think this era will be pertrayed very positively.  At least these discussions don't end up in name-calling and nasty attacks like on Car and Driver's forums.

I think that's because you and I are both adults, and can act like adults.

:)

Agree to disagree it is, then!

[Raza]

I have to agree with Hemi.  The consumer has never had it so good.  Whether it's a subcompact of a high end sports car there is a car for everyone out there.  And, the performance, reliabilty, value and quality has never been better.

Where the average consumer thrives, the enthusiast suffers.  

But that's just me.  

[Catman]

I have to agree with Hemi.  The consumer has never had it so good.  Whether it's a subcompact of a high end sports car there is a car for everyone out there.  And, the performance, reliabilty, value and quality has never been better.

Where the average consumer thrives, the enthusiast suffers.  

But that's just me.

I don't see any enthusiasts really wanting, there's a lot of choices out there.  Maybe if you grew up in the 80's you'd have a better perspective.  Ever drive a 190hp Corvette with 280 lb-ft of torque?  0-60 in 7.7 seconds.   Terrible quality on top of the miserable performance.  A 2006 Miata could whip it handily.  The cars today are excellent as is the selection for any type of driver.  

[Raza]

I have to agree with Hemi.  The consumer has never had it so good.  Whether it's a subcompact of a high end sports car there is a car for everyone out there.  And, the performance, reliabilty, value and quality has never been better.

Where the average consumer thrives, the enthusiast suffers.  

But that's just me.

I don't see any enthusiasts really wanting, there's a lot of choices out there.  Maybe if you grew up in the 80's you'd have a better perspective.  Ever drive a 190hp Corvette with 280 lb-ft of torque?  0-60 in 7.7 seconds.   Terrible quality on top of the miserable performance.  A 2006 Miata could whip it handily.  The cars today are excellent as is the selection for any type of driver.

Sports cars didn't exactly peak in the 80s, I do agree, but very few give us the purity and character of the cars from the 60s.

[SVT666]

I have to agree with Hemi.? The consumer has never had it so good.? Whether it's a subcompact of a high end sports car there is a car for everyone out there.? And, the performance, reliabilty, value and quality has never been better.

Where the average consumer thrives, the enthusiast suffers.  

But that's just me.

I don't see any enthusiasts really wanting, there's a lot of choices out there.  Maybe if you grew up in the 80's you'd have a better perspective.  Ever drive a 190hp Corvette with 280 lb-ft of torque?  0-60 in 7.7 seconds.   Terrible quality on top of the miserable performance.  A 2006 Miata could whip it handily.  The cars today are excellent as is the selection for any type of driver.

Sports cars didn't exactly peak in the 80s, I do agree, but very few give us the purity and character of the cars from the 60s.

...and none of those cars from the 60s could hang with any of their counterparts today.  A V6 Accord can outperform many of the 60s muscle cars.  If being an enthusiast means you want a car that isn't safe, shoddy build quality, terrible reliability, that can't go around a corner, and is uncomfortable, then I guess I'm not an enthusiast.  That's why I like the new Mustang and the Challenger concept, because they have the styling of the 60s and 70s cars, but the performance, reliability, comfort, and safety of a modern car.  Safety is big for me now that I have a kid...especially with the a--holes on the road.  Traffic is 100 times worse then it was in the 60s too.

[Raghavan]

I have to agree with Hemi.  The consumer has never had it so good.  Whether it's a subcompact of a high end sports car there is a car for everyone out there.  And, the performance, reliabilty, value and quality has never been better.

Where the average consumer thrives, the enthusiast suffers.  

But that's just me.

I don't see any enthusiasts really wanting, there's a lot of choices out there.  Maybe if you grew up in the 80's you'd have a better perspective.  Ever drive a 190hp Corvette with 280 lb-ft of torque?  0-60 in 7.7 seconds.   Terrible quality on top of the miserable performance.  A 2006 Miata could whip it handily.  The cars today are excellent as is the selection for any type of driver.

Sports cars didn't exactly peak in the 80s, I do agree, but very few give us the purity and character of the cars from the 60s.

...and none of those cars from the 60s could hang with any of their counterparts today.  A V6 Accord can outperform many of the 60s muscle cars.  If being an enthusiast means you want a car that isn't safe, shoddy build quality, terrible reliability, that can't go around a corner, and is uncomfortable, then I guess I'm not an enthusiast.  That's why I like the new Mustang and the Challenger concept, because they have the styling of the 60s and 70s cars, but the performance, reliability, comfort, and safety of a modern car.  Safety is big for me now that I have a kid...especially with the a--holes on the road.  Traffic is 100 times worse then it was in the 60s too.

Motorweek did a race with a '60's Challenger and a new Odyssey with passengers and cameras around a twisty auto-X track. The Challenger was wallowing in every turn, and understeered into turns, and oversteered out and it was a mess. the Odyssey on the other hand, understeered in, but it was a lot more controlleable and in the end it bitch slapped the Challenger by beating it by 1.5 seconds around the track. :ph34r:  

[Catman]

LOL, that's pretty funny Rag. :P  

[Raghavan]

Yeah, i know. That Challenger was the floatiest car i've ever seen. :ph34r:
it would've spanked the Odyssey on a straighter track, but on a twisty road, a challenger will get owned by a minivan.

[Raza]

I wasn't really talking about muscle cars--they're not sports cars.

[MX793]

I'd definately disagree with the assumption that fuel efficiency is going down with increased power.  My Mazda makes more peak power and performs every bit as well as my old 240SX, yet I get on average at least 3 MPG better driving in the same road conditions.  And that's with inferior aerodynamics to boot.  During the summers, I rarely get below 30 mpg on a tank.  I only hit the 30 mpg mark in the Nissan on one tank of gas in the 5 years I owned it (and it was my last tank of gas).  Likewise, after you adjust for net horsepower vs gross, muscle cars today are making way more power than the monsters of the 60s and get far better mileage.

While yes, todays compacts don't get the same kind of mileage as their lighter, smaller, less powerful forebears, when you compare them to similar performing and sized cars of days past they are actually doing better.  And now we have the new breed of subcompacts like the Echo and Fit that are very much what the old compact class used to be, so the fuel misers still have similar options to what they had 15 years ago.

Well, I would say that the lower end of the market has benefitted most from this current era.  I've said it before, I'd rather buy a car in the under 40K market than the over 100K market.

Why?  Too many electronic thing-a-ma-jigs on high end cars?  Hate to break it to you, but that's the way it's always been.  The highest echelon of automobiles have always boasted the latest and greatest in automotive technology of the time.  Sports cars came with the latest technology to make them faster or handle better (limited slip differentials, disc brakes, fuel injection...).  Luxury cars came with the latest in creature comforts (electric start, automatic transmissions, air-ride suspension, in-car telephones...).  It's how it's always been, how it still is, and how it will always be.

But look at the corruption even in sports cars.  I'd lost interest in luxury cars a long time ago, but it took much more convincing for me to turn my back on the likes of Ferrari.

What corruption?  Automated sequential manual gearboxes?  Traction control?  ABS?  Stability Control?  Variable suspensions?

High end sports cars like Ferraris have never been about "purity" (at least not the "purity" that you are talking about), they've always been about providing performance and utilizing the latest and greatest technology to acheive that performance.  And it's not just the performance, but technology that allows the driver to use that performance more easily or effectively (i.e. traction control or the automated SMG).  It's technology that can compensate for human shortcomings.  The only difference between today and 20 or 30 or 40 years ago is the technology.  The advent of microprocessors and more sophisticated electronics and electro-mechanical devices has spawned a whole new array of performance enhancing features, building upon existing technologies to make them work better, faster, or more effectively.  Had any of the technology that exists today been available to Ferrari 20 or 30 years ago, they'd have been implementing it into their "pure" cars back then.  The only "purity" that Ferrari and similar high end performance carmakers have ever been concerned with is pure performance by any means.

Yes, these technologies remove some of the skill required to drive a car fast.  ABS removes the need for threshold braking.  TCS reduces the need for throttle control.  SMG removes the need for the driver to learn shifting techniques.  But at the same time they open up new levels of performance that drivers of decades past could only dream about.  The goal is to get the man and the machine to operate as one organism.  The man provides the will, the machine provides the way.  These new technologies, "corruptions" as you put it, allow the machine to compensate for the physical weaknesses or inadequacies of the man, allowing that part of the unit to put its focus elsewhere.  It's what man has been using machines for since the dawn of time.  Is that rock too heavy to lift?  Use a lever.  Is that stone to heavy to drag?  Put it on rollers or wheels.  It would honestly not surprise me if at some point in the future, our cars (or whatever we are using for transportation at that time) became devices in which we simply plug our brain into and control by thought alone.  The ultimate merger of man and machine.

"Purity", or more accurately, simplicity, can be great fun.  I enjoy a relatively simple car that requires a bit more driver ability and interaction.  It's fun.  Although there's only so simple I'm willing to go.  Ever have to dick around with jetting a carburator for the day's weather conditions?  Or worse, trying to synch multiple carbs?  Manual adjustment of ignition timing?  No thanks, I like my EFI and electronic ignition.  

Turning away from progress for the sake of "purity" is not the way.  If everyone felt that we should turn away from using machines that augment human ability, we'd still be living in caves.

[SVT666]

Where do you draw the line?  When was enough technology enough?  My 1996 Mustang GT was a stripper model.  No power windows, no power locks, no power seat, no cruise control, no ABS, and no traction control.  The car was crude and rude and I loved it.  Unfortunately I also love power windows, locks, and cruise control.

[LonghornTX]

I can see this argument from both sides.

As a BMW fan, I can tell you without hesitation that the E30 M3 provided all the reliability of the E46 model, with a MUCH purer experience.  Same goes for the E36 model as well as the E34 vs. E60 M5's.  My feelings are also very similar for Porsche 993 (or 964 for that matter) vs. 996.  Yes, the new cars will whoop them in every concievable performance category, but IMO, the experience of driving the cars definately lost some of it's character (and who really pushes their car that much anyways?).  Less of a feeling of being "one" with the machine.  And while marques like BMW and Porsche have always been at the forefront of technology, there is no way you could ever compare the amount of electronic gadgets in today's cars to those of even 15 years ago.  Some have bettered the cars from a performance standpoint, others, at least IMO, have not (take BMW's active steering).

But, as a Mustang fan (and a fan of american muscle in general), I also know of the advantages that modern day technology has brought to the table.  And there is no doubt that cars now are the safest ever.

All in all I think history will smile on this era   .

[Raza]

MX793:

You have a point, but it's just not for me.  To me, when I see things like 10 stage traction control systems and multiple suspension settings and selectable shift speeds, I also see the alienation of the driver from the driving experience.  To me, that is unacceptable.  As I said earlier, fast is fine, but better is better, and more involvement is better.  But, then again, I'm not even a Formula One fan (though I enjoy watching Renault win and Ferrari lose).

[SVT666]

MX793:

You have a point, but it's just not for me.  To me, when I see things like 10 stage traction control systems and multiple suspension settings and selectable shift speeds, I also see the alienation of the driver from the driving experience.  To me, that is unacceptable.  As I said earlier, fast is fine, but better is better, and more involvement is better.  But, then again, I'm not even a Formula One fan (though I enjoy watching Renault win and Ferrari lose).

Yeah.  Me too!  Except for me I like to see McLaren win and Ferrari lose  

[Raza]

MX793:

You have a point, but it's just not for me.  To me, when I see things like 10 stage traction control systems and multiple suspension settings and selectable shift speeds, I also see the alienation of the driver from the driving experience.  To me, that is unacceptable.  As I said earlier, fast is fine, but better is better, and more involvement is better.  But, then again, I'm not even a Formula One fan (though I enjoy watching Renault win and Ferrari lose).

Yeah.  Me too!  Except for me I like to see McLaren win and Ferrari lose

I don't mind that either, but the Renaults have such a pretty color scheme!

Hey, how did the R10s do at the Sarthe 24 hours?  

[SVT666]

MX793:

You have a point, but it's just not for me.? To me, when I see things like 10 stage traction control systems and multiple suspension settings and selectable shift speeds, I also see the alienation of the driver from the driving experience.? To me, that is unacceptable.? As I said earlier, fast is fine, but better is better, and more involvement is better.? But, then again, I'm not even a Formula One fan (though I enjoy watching Renault win and Ferrari lose).

Yeah.  Me too!  Except for me I like to see McLaren win and Ferrari lose

I don't mind that either, but the Renaults have such a pretty color scheme!

Hey, how did the R10s do at the Sarthe 24 hours?

No idea.  I used to watch F1 and Champ Car, but when Ferrari started dominating F1 and the IRL started up and half the good drivers left Champ Car, I pretty much stopped watching altogether.  The only thing I really like to watch now is the Canadian Rally Championships.  They race on pavement, dirt logging roads, snow covered logging roads, etc.  It's a blast to watch.  There is no horsepower limit either.  A guy a  couple years ago was running an AWD Ford Focus with 450hp.  This is the best racing I have ever seen.  I love it.

[Raza]

MX793:

You have a point, but it's just not for me.  To me, when I see things like 10 stage traction control systems and multiple suspension settings and selectable shift speeds, I also see the alienation of the driver from the driving experience.  To me, that is unacceptable.  As I said earlier, fast is fine, but better is better, and more involvement is better.  But, then again, I'm not even a Formula One fan (though I enjoy watching Renault win and Ferrari lose).

Yeah.  Me too!  Except for me I like to see McLaren win and Ferrari lose

I don't mind that either, but the Renaults have such a pretty color scheme!

Hey, how did the R10s do at the Sarthe 24 hours?

No idea.  I used to watch F1 and Champ Car, but when Ferrari started dominating F1 and the IRL started up and half the good drivers left Champ Car, I pretty much stopped watching altogether.  The only thing I really like to watch now is the Canadian Rally Championships.  They race on pavement, dirt logging roads, snow covered logging roads, etc.  It's a blast to watch.  There is no horsepower limit either.  A guy a  couple years ago was running an AWD Ford Focus with 450hp.  This is the best racing I have ever seen.  I love it.

I agree...rally car racing is like Nicole Kidman drenched in chocolate.  

[SVT666]

Well, at least we have the same taste in women and car racing  :D  

[Raza]

Well, at least we have the same taste in women and car racing  :D

I knew I liked you for a reason.  

B)  

[SJ_GTI]

So Raza when are you trading in your Passat for an Evo?

[93JC]

The only thing I really like to watch now is the Canadian Rally Championships.  They race on pavement, dirt logging roads, snow covered logging roads, etc.  It's a blast to watch.  There is no horsepower limit either.  A guy a  couple years ago was running an AWD Ford Focus with 450hp.  This is the best racing I have ever seen.  I love it.

B)

Wanna go see the one near Rocky Mountain House?    

[SVT666]

The only thing I really like to watch now is the Canadian Rally Championships.  They race on pavement, dirt logging roads, snow covered logging roads, etc.  It's a blast to watch.  There is no horsepower limit either.  A guy a  couple years ago was running an AWD Ford Focus with 450hp.  This is the best racing I have ever seen.  I love it.

B)

Wanna go see the one near Rocky Mountain House?  

That's at the end of January isn't it?  I think it was January 28th this year.  That one is pretty wild.  The one that's held in my home town (Merritt) is pretty cool too. That's held in the summer though, so they have to battle temperatures upwards of 44-45 C (112 F).  The January race in Rocky Mountain House would be pretty cool to go see live though.  Maybe I will go next year.  

There is a rally near Calgary in September which would be good to go to.  Unfortunately I will probably be moving that weekend to our new house so I probably won't be able to go.

[Raza]

So Raza when are you trading in your Passat for an Evo?

Pretty much never.  I'm wrestling with the idea of putting a deposit down on a Sky Red Line.

[93JC]

The only thing I really like to watch now is the Canadian Rally Championships.  They race on pavement, dirt logging roads, snow covered logging roads, etc.  It's a blast to watch.  There is no horsepower limit either.  A guy a  couple years ago was running an AWD Ford Focus with 450hp.  This is the best racing I have ever seen.  I love it.

B)

Wanna go see the one near Rocky Mountain House?  

That's at the end of January isn't it?  I think it was January 28th this year.  That one is pretty wild.  The one that's held in my home town (Merritt) is pretty cool too. That's held in the summer though, so they have to battle temperatures upwards of 44-45 C (112 F).  The January race in Rocky Mountain House would be pretty cool to go see live though.  Maybe I will go next year.  

There is a rally near Calgary in September which would be good to go to.  Unfortunately I will probably be moving that weekend to our new house so I probably won't be able to go.

The one I was thinking of was the Rocky Mountain Rally. This year's event was apparently held May 26th and 27th.

[SJ_GTI]

So Raza when are you trading in your Passat for an Evo?

Pretty much never.  I'm wrestling with the idea of putting a deposit down on a Sky Red Line.

Not a bad idea...but something in me prevents me from the possibility of purchasing a car without being able to drive it first.

[Raza]

So Raza when are you trading in your Passat for an Evo?

Pretty much never.  I'm wrestling with the idea of putting a deposit down on a Sky Red Line.

Not a bad idea...but something in me prevents me from the possibility of purchasing a car without being able to drive it first.

Me too--I wouldn't do it without the condition that I can drive it and cancel the order without losing cash.

I don't know, though--summer comes along and I want a convertible again. But right now, the A4 3.2 looks like a good car as well.  

[SVT666]

So Raza when are you trading in your Passat for an Evo?

Pretty much never.  I'm wrestling with the idea of putting a deposit down on a Sky Red Line.

Not a bad idea...but something in me prevents me from the possibility of purchasing a car without being able to drive it first.

Me too--I wouldn't do it without the condition that I can drive it and cancel the order without losing cash.

I don't know, though--summer comes along and I want a convertible again. But right now, the A4 3.2 looks like a good car as well.

Are you ever going to decide on a car?  You have been changing your mind for as long as I've been on this board.  I think you should just bite the bulllet and buy the car you really want.  Admit it...a Mustang!  :P  

[Raza]

So Raza when are you trading in your Passat for an Evo?

Pretty much never.  I'm wrestling with the idea of putting a deposit down on a Sky Red Line.

Not a bad idea...but something in me prevents me from the possibility of purchasing a car without being able to drive it first.

Me too--I wouldn't do it without the condition that I can drive it and cancel the order without losing cash.

I don't know, though--summer comes along and I want a convertible again. But right now, the A4 3.2 looks like a good car as well.

Are you ever going to decide on a car?  You have been changing your mind for as long as I've been on this board.  I think you should just bite the bulllet and buy the car you really want.  Admit it...a Mustang!  :P

Trust me, it's been going on a lot longer than you've been on this board!

The Mustang I want:



The Ghia.