IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans

[ifcar]

Being that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.

Again, what is "feeling old"?

chassis flex, muted handling feedback, etc.

If its a new car, then it shouldnt feel old, not matter when it came out.  The things you are describing come with usage of the car.

Actually, older designs typically have weaker chassis(s) and are therefore more prone to flex. A lack of steering feel can develop over time as the various parts of the suspension get well worn, but it can also be present from the get go due to an outdated design. And, the biggest complaint I have heard about the S-class (besides price) that could at all be related to its age is its seating position? (don't recall ever hearing about chassis flex or poor steering feel)

Car and Driver complained that the seating position was too high, but I like a high seating position myself.  

[Raghavan]

Being that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.

Again, what is "feeling old"?

chassis flex, muted handling feedback, etc.

Not sure what that would have to do with age, but no, nothing serious like that.

well, as the cars get newer, the chassis gets stiffer, etc, and the s-class is quite old, so i was asking about chassis flex, etc.

[Raza]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise...

[Raghavan]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

[Raza]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.  

[Raghavan]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.

Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna.  

[Raza]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.

Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna.

I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.

[Raghavan]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.

Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna.

I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.

or a Sienna. I think ifcar likes comfort and luxury over sport. personal taste.

[BMWDave]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.? What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.

Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna.

I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.

I agree with you, and Ifcar said the main reason was price.  Without price as a consideration, the LS would have fallen at least behind the Bimmer and Audi.

[ifcar]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.

Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna.

I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.

I agree with you, and Ifcar said the main reason was price.  Without price as a consideration, the LS would have fallen at least behind the Bimmer and Audi.

Not behind the Audi. Take another look at the order that I posted.    

[BMWDave]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.? What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.

Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna.

I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.

I agree with you, and Ifcar said the main reason was price.  Without price as a consideration, the LS would have fallen at least behind the Bimmer and Audi.

Not behind the Audi. Take another look at the order that I posted.  

Got it

1. S430
2. 750i
3. LS430
4 & 5: A8 and XJ8, not sure which way
6. Phaeton  

[ifcar]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.

Why was it chosen? It was the best-in-class in the following areas:

1. Comfort
Exceptionally smooth and absorbent ride, excellent seat comfort.

2. Refinement
The smoothest and the quietest.

Those are two of the most important aspects of a $70,000 luxury sedan.

It was also impressive, though not best-in-class, in the following areas:

3. Price
Second only to the A8 is gizmos for the dollar.

4. Acceleration
Not 750i quick, but still respectable.

5. Interior Quality
Behind the VW cousins, but still impressive.


And where does it fall behind?

1. Handling
Not fun to drive. While a serious flaw, especially compared to the others, each of the other cars also had serious flaws, and the LS's was deemed the least significant.

-The Phaeton had numerous serious flaws, including ride comfort, seat comfort, handling, and refinement.
-The S430 was extremely expensive, something like $20,000 more than a comparably-equipped LS430.
-The XJ8 was not as comfortable or refined as the standards of this class demand.
-The 750i had a very high price, probably $15,000-$20,000 more than a comparably-equipped LS430.
-The A8 had a stiff ride.
-The LS430 had soft handling.

By my standards, the LS430's flaws came out to be the least significant overall, especially considering where it stood out in other areas. You could also argue that it falls behind in styling, and I'd agree. However, styling was not a factor here.

[ifcar]

Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise...

that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...

It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.

Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna.

I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.

I agree with you, and Ifcar said the main reason was price.  Without price as a consideration, the LS would have fallen at least behind the Bimmer and Audi.

Not behind the Audi. Take another look at the order that I posted.  

Got it

1. S430
2. 750i
3. LS430
4 & 5: A8 and XJ8, not sure which way
6. Phaeton

Correct. The Audi ended up as high as it did because of its price as well; without that factor it falls behind, too.  

[Raza]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

[TBR]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.  

[Raza]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.  

[R33 GT-R]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.? 750i
2.? XJ8
3.? S430
4.? Phaeton
5.? A8
6.? LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.

:D  

[Raghavan]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

[BMWDave]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

[Raghavan]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

on price, yes, and it could've given the BMW a run for it's money in performance.

[BMWDave]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

on price, yes, and it could've given the BMW a run for it's money in performance.

It gets to 60 in 5.1 seconds (absolutely amazing!) and the Bimmer does it in 5.4.  Very close numbers.

[Raghavan]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

on price, yes, and it could've given the BMW a run for it's money in performance.

It gets to 60 in 5.1 seconds (absolutely amazing!) and the Bimmer does it in 5.4.  Very close numbers.

it would've been a great car to include in its comparo, because the Super v8 @ $90,000 is what takes on the 760li, etc.

[BMWDave]

Take availability into account...Maybe he couldnt drive one.

[Raghavan]

Take availability into account...Maybe he couldnt drive one.

:shrugs: i'll ask him later.

[TBR]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.

I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.  

[Raghavan]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.

I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.

yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.

[ifcar]

Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...

I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.

The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.

[Raza]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.

I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.

yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.

Ford 500?

[TBR]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.

I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.

yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.

Ford 500?

The only part of the Five Hundred that looks at all like the Passat is the roof arch, but other that they are completely different.  

[Raza]

If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.

Snob  

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.

I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.

yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.

Ford 500?

The only part of the Five Hundred that looks at all like the Passat is the roof arch, but other that they are completely different.

That's what you think.  I see alot of Passat in it.