Front brakes

[AutobahnSHO]

I need to do front pads on both my 92 Voyager and the in-laws' Asstek this week. 
I've done rear brakes before, and I've disassembled the front hubs, but surprisingly never done front brakes.

Any pointers??   

[93JC]

Don't do what I did:

Fucking son of a bitch. You'd think changing brake pads would be a reasonably easy affair, but every fucking thing that could have possibly gone wrong has so far.

I started off my day chilling out, getting up around ten. Had some breakfast, surfed some internet, watched some TV for a couple hours, then showered, got dressed and went to the university in an attempt to see if I could get my universal transit pass for four months for $64. For reference, a regular monthly pass is $70, so it wasn't a very long debate in my head as to whether I'd try and get this pass ("$64 or $280... $64 or $280...").

So I got up there and didn't realize how much of a fucking gyp parking is. Normally I'll park far away and walk, but they closed at 3:00pm and I got there around 2:30pm. I didn't want to try my luck and end up not getting a chance to plead for this pass so I was just going to park on campus.

Cost $0.25 for five minute, minimum $0.50. I knew I'd be fifteen minutes, so I needed at least $0.75. But I spent pretty much every cent I'd had when I paid for parking at work on Wednesday, which cost me fucking $12. So I had to scrounge through every single fucking nook and cranny in the car to find enough change. Fortunately I did.

Thankfully I got the pass too.

So, that done, I went home and decided to replace the front brake pads, as I've been meaning too for, like, two months. I tried before, but couldn't get my god damned fucking wheels off. The last guys to touch them were the monkeys at Kal-tire, who put a pair of new tires on the fronts. About three weeks ago I took it to them on a Saturday afternoon, the first Satruday I'd had a chance (they closed at 6:00 on weekdays, so there was no freakin' way I would get it to them quick enough on a weekday). They got 'em off. Eventually. Took them two hours to get one lug nut off. Must have been the one that snapped my lug wrench in two...

They threw in a free tire rotation and put new lug nuts on every wheel, 'cause the old ones were fucked.

Anyway, so today's the first good chance I've had to replace the pads. So, I get home from the university and try to get the wheels off. I can't, the new lugnuts are some weird fucko size. I found a lug wrench with the right size after searching high and low for at least twenty minutes. I get the car jacked up and supported, get the wheel off, everything is great. Then I try to take the caliper off.

The bolts holding the caliper are some weird fucko size. My 17mm and 11/16" are too small, and my 19mm and 3/4" are too big. So it's either 18mm or 23/32", neither of which I have in four sets of sockets.

So I get the wheel back on, get the car down and head off to Crappy Tire (Canadian Tire) to buy an 18mm or 23/32" six-point socket.

I get there, can't find a 23/32", decide they probably don;t even make such a queer size. I do find an 18mm though, but it's behind a locked cage. Okay, so I have to find some guy at the store to open it for me. Usually someone will ask if you need help if they see you there for a couple minutes. Not today. I try to find someone to help me. They're all busy. Finally a find a guy in another department and sk him for the key. He doesn't have one, pages someone for me over the store PA. No one shows up.

Fifteen minutes later I go to their customer service desk and ask "Okay, does anybody in this place have a key to the damned socket lock-up or should I just fuck off to one of your competitors?"

They page a guy again. Then again. I gave the guy with the keys five minutes to get his ass over to me or I was leaving. Dude got there with about 30 seconds to spare.

So, I get to the checkout, second person in line. But I just happened to pick the slowest fucking cashier in the whole fucking joint. And the lady in front of me has over a dozen of these little glass bowl dish things that she wants wrapped individually. So I move to another line over behind this guy who bought a couple hundred dollars worth of tools and has his very skinny but eminently fuckable little girlfriend in tow. Checked her out while waiting for the cashier. Finally it's my turn and I hold up the one measly fucking socket which should have taken me 2 minutes to buy but took 45 instead. Cashier gives me a smirk, scans the barcode while I dangle it in front of her, charges me $4.02 for my little socket and sends me on my way. I'm pretty sure she could tell I was so fucking pissed off about being in this place. I'm pretty sure everybody could.

I race home, get the wheel back off, car in the air: 18mm is the right size!

But the bolts are rusted solid! I need WD-40! But I have none!

I let out a healthy [size=8]"FUCK!"[/size]


Try my damnedest to get them loose. Couldn't. As it started raining lightly I decided to quit before lost it and sledgehammered the fuck out my car.

Turns out the two 18mm bolts that I thought got the caliper off aren't the ones that get the caliper off. It was actually one stupid fucking 10mm bolt covered by a little rubber boot thing that I assumed was for an ABS connection (my car doesn't have ABS). Replaced the pads this morning with little trouble, except I lost a little retainer clip thing so a new one had to be made. I found an old coathanger of roughly the same gauge that did the job.

Most fucked up brake assembly I've ever seen. The bolt in the rubber boot holds the whole fucking thing on, and three retainer clips keep the pads from falling off. Retarded.

[Rupert]

Haha. And that's why I always buy a repair manual.

Was that all on the Cherokee?

[VTEC_Inside]

My only suggestion would be to price out rotors as well and maybe replace them while you're there. I replaced just the pads on my Accord back in November. I should have bought rotors then. What I didn't see what that there was a good ring of rust on the inside edge of both rotors. I replaced both pads and rotors just a couple of weeks ago and my 6-7 months old brake pads had been destroyed (the inner ones that is).

Onto the job itself. Spray down anything giving you trouble with some lube and give it a couple minutes. Buy some caliper lube for the slide pins and a little where the pads ride.

[S204STi]

I recommend new rotors as well, if you can afford it.  Unless you live in an area with next to no rust there is likely a rust ridge like the one VTEC mentioned that will fuckify your new pads in a hurry.  In New England you pretty much have to machine or replace everything.  Sucks.

[93JC]

Haha. And that's why I always buy a repair manual.

Was that all on the Cherokee?

Spirit.

[sparkplug]

Brakes are very important to have done right. Take them to a certified technician and have them do the brakes. That is your vehicle I'm suggesting. Get a good life insurance policy on your in-laws before you do their brakes. You don't want to be stuck with a big funeral bill. Or better yet - show them the yellow pages and let them pay someone else to do their brakes.

[Rupert]

Ah, right, I knew there was another.

sparkplug- But brakes, while being a pain in the ass, are easy. Hard to screw up to dangerous levels if you're paying attention.

[AutobahnSHO]

Brakes are very important to have done right. Take them to a certified technician and have them do the brakes. That is your vehicle I'm suggesting. Get a good life insurance policy on your in-laws before you do their brakes. You don't want to be stuck with a big funeral bill. Or better yet - show them the yellow pages and let them pay someone else to do their brakes.

If you're trying to be funny, haha.
If not, I disagree-
I will usually do a more careful job than most mechanics, since I want it to be done right and am the one driving it.  By doing my own work I also see other potential problems, so I can plan my preventative maintenance.  I also know that the guy at the "Quickie Lube" isn't telling me I need things that I don't need, since I examine more than just what I plan on working on when I'm under the car.

I have the luxury of paying a few bucks an hour to use a self-help garage with certified mechanics who are paid to help out or answer questions. I follow the manuals, and ask if anything isn't totally obvious.
I don't always love wrenching on the car, but it has paid off big-time, and I learn so much more that I can use next time.

Paying for car repairs (which I can do myself,) is like paying someone to format your computer, clean your house, or go grocery shopping for you- for some people that's wonderful but I can't afford it.  Besides, those people live a life oblivious to some of "real life".

[AutobahnSHO]

The in-laws got new rotors under warranty just a year ago (only have 5k miles and should be ok) but need just new pads.

On mine I do plan on putting on rotors at the same time as pads.  The pads are almost completely worn out and the rotors are done, I don't think they'd even take a machining.  Not bad for the miles I've driven-
I bought the van w/ 85k, now it's at 105k, and I'm not sure how long the original owner had been on these brakes.

[omicron]

Take the wheels off the Aztek and let homeless people live in it. Don't waste valuable energy on this car

[AutobahnSHO]

Take the wheels off the Aztek and let homeless people live in it. Don't waste valuable energy on this car

LOL
As ugly as it is, it's functional. NH snow, real backseat, very spacious trunk, not too terrible on the gas mileage.  They got a really good deal on it, too.

[omicron]

LOL
As ugly as it is, it's functional. NH snow, real backseat, very spacious trunk, not too terrible on the gas mileage. They got a really good deal on it, too.

I wonder why? :P

[sparkplug]

If you're trying to be funny, haha.
If not, I disagree-
I will usually do a more careful job than most mechanics, since I want it to be done right and am the one driving it.  By doing my own work I also see other potential problems, so I can plan my preventative maintenance.  I also know that the guy at the "Quickie Lube" isn't telling me I need things that I don't need, since I examine more than just what I plan on working on when I'm under the car.

I have the luxury of paying a few bucks an hour to use a self-help garage with certified mechanics who are paid to help out or answer questions. I follow the manuals, and ask if anything isn't totally obvious.
I don't always love wrenching on the car, but it has paid off big-time, and I learn so much more that I can use next time.

Paying for car repairs (which I can do myself,) is like paying someone to format your computer, clean your house, or go grocery shopping for you- for some people that's wonderful but I can't afford it.  Besides, those people live a life oblivious to some of "real life".

I generally let me brother fix the brakes. He does mechanic work when he has too. But you are right. Brakes aren't all too different. It helps to half a less complex car. The easiest brakes we ever replaced was on a Dodge Ram 50 made by Mitsubishi.

Have a life insurance on those in-laws yet. We call them outlaws around here.

Ok. Since I helped my brother do a few brake jobs, let me give you a pointer. Take the tire off first. My brother always does that first. I don't why but he does. I have to consult with my brother but I believe you have to release the pressure. Normally he puts c-clamps on directly on the outide of the pads. When you take the caliper off don't let it just hang there. Wire it up to something. Remove the old pads. Put the new ones on. Reinstall everything. You should pump the brakes before you take off so you'll have some stopping power. You may need to bleed the brakes. That be $150,000.18. Second thought I'll just take the 18?.

[saxonyron]

LOL
As ugly as it is, it's functional. NH snow, real backseat, very spacious trunk, not too terrible on the gas mileage. They got a really good deal on it, too.

The Aztek can make a grown man weep just by passing by.  Does "NH Snow" mean New Hampshire?  93JCs incredibly funny but terribly sad story summarizes why I don't attempt such things any more.  The last brake job I did, about 15 years ago, all I remember was the caliper puller tool made life real easy.  Not to use that was to guarantee very high blood pressure.

Good luck!

[VTEC_Inside]

One further mention.

Probably not an issue on your van, but double check that some doofus hasn't been topping up the brake fluid on the Asstek.

The morons at Toyota had been topping up the fluid on my brothers Corolla so much so that it was pretty much at the max line as I started to press the caliper pistons back in. Needless to say that made a little bit of a mess.

[93JC]

93JCs incredibly funny but terribly sad story summarizes why I don't attempt such things any more.?

[AutobahnSHO]

The Aztek can make a grown man weep just by passing by. Does "NH Snow" mean New Hampshire? 93JCs incredibly funny but terribly sad story summarizes why I don't attempt such things any more. The last brake job I did, about 15 years ago, all I remember was the caliper puller tool made life real easy. Not to use that was to guarantee very high blood pressure.

Good luck!

Thanks- Hopefully I won't need the luck.  The shop I go to has all the brake tools available. The right tools definitely make the job easier.

Yes, the in-laws live in New Hampshire. The Asstek was under warranty for the rotors, but the pads still had some wear on them.
Funny that no one makes as much fun of that Buick rip-off.   If they'd just not gone so wacky with the styling they might have sold some more of them in the first place.  This one sells ok, even though it's basically a restyled Aztec= http://www.buick.com/rendezvous/gallery_exterior.jsp

[omicron]

Well, an Aztek looks like shit, and a Rendezvous looks like a....nondescript non-offensive lump of metal.

[AutobahnSHO]

Well, the Asstek stops.   
When we got to it really only one set of pads was worn, the others were ok. 
We still changed them all out, bled the fluid, rotated the tires, and changed the oil.

$70 in parts (advance auto "oem spec" pads) and $10 in shop fees, plus about 2.5hrs of our time.
I know a garage could have done it faster, but I think we came out a'right. 

Now I know front pads- I'll be doing the Voyager this week.

[AutobahnSHO]

Question on the Asstek-
I KNOW we got everything put back together right.  New "OEM-type" (but not OEM) pads, rotors had been used maybe 6months and really looked a'right.

The in-laws said that they're squeaking/rubbing (it's kind of a combined sound, and it is ALWAYS there, regardless of speed, unless they brake) sound.
Anything to be worried about? 

I just figure the pads need to wear in...

[Eye of the Tiger]

Question on the Asstek-
I KNOW we got everything p

ut back together right. New "OEM-type" (but not OEM) pads, rotors had been used maybe 6months and really looked a'right.

The in-laws said that they're squeaking/rubbing (it's kind of a combined sound, and it is ALWAYS there, regardless of speed, unless they brake) sound.
Anything to be worried about?

I just figure the pads need to wear in...

Yeah, if you just changed the pads, they do need to bed in before they will work 100%, and that may include some squeaking.
But if it continues for long, it might be a caliper that isn't sliding properly. It might just needs some grease.

[omicron]

The in-laws said that they're squeaking/rubbing

Perhaps a bit of oil?

[The Pirate]

squeaking/rubbing (it's kind of a combined sound, and it is ALWAYS there, regardless of speed, unless they brake) sound.
Anything to be worried about? 

I just figure the pads need to wear in...

I have had this happen on several older cars of mine, it usually ended up being the piston in the caliper.  It had some build up gunk and wasn't quite retracting enough.  Calipers aren't too expensive, and/or it is possible to rebuild them.

That being said, it's very possible that the pads still just need to break in.  How spiritedly do your in-laws drive?  What I've done with decent success is just the car up to highway speeds (okay, maybe a little more than that  ), and do a few good, hard stops.  Obviously, take this last thought with a grain of salt, as it's not the safest recommendation, but it's worked for me.  On a similar note, one of my mountain bikes has hydraulic disc brakes and I just put new pads on it last week.  The brakes flat out sucked and made horrible noises for the first half of my ride, but have progressively been getting better since. 

[AutobahnSHO]

I have had this happen on several older cars of mine, it usually ended up being the piston in the caliper.? It had some build up gunk and wasn't quite retracting enough.? Calipers aren't too expensive, and/or it is possible to rebuild them.

That being said, it's very possible that the pads still just need to break in.? How spiritedly do your in-laws drive?? What I've done with decent success is just the car up to highway speeds (okay, maybe a little more than that? ), and do a few good, hard stops.? Obviously, take this last thought with a grain of salt, as it's not the safest recommendation, but it's worked for me.? On a similar note, one of my mountain bikes has hydraulic disc brakes and I just put new pads on it last week.? The brakes flat out sucked and made horrible noises for the first half of my ride, but have progressively been getting better since.?

I'm with you-
These pads even say there isn't a break-in period!!  I'll have to check how they're doing now- they were talking about taking it to a mechanic for the noise...

[S204STi]

I wonder if you bent the dust shield behind one of the rotors; you know, the tinny plate that covers the back side of the rotor.  If you bent that, say when you lowered the wheel onto it while removing it from the vehicle, it will make a steady-state noise regardless of brake application.  Also possible is that one of the shims was bent during installation and is scraping the rotor.  Also, I know on Ford cars a wire retainer is used to hold the outboard pad against the caliper, and the first time I did my wife's forcus I didn't reinstall that correctly so it caused a nasty noise by scraping the rotor.  No damage done, just a nuisance. 

obviously you will have to pull them apart again and look.  I know it's frustrating but we learn by making mistakes. 

[AutobahnSHO]

I wonder if you bent the dust shield behind one of the rotors; you know, the tinny plate that covers the back side of the rotor.? If you bent that, say when you lowered the wheel onto it while removing it from the vehicle, it will make a steady-state noise regardless of brake application.? Also possible is that one of the shims was bent during installation and is scraping the rotor.? Also, I know on Ford cars a wire retainer is used to hold the outboard pad against the caliper, and the first time I did my wife's forcus I didn't reinstall that correctly so it caused a nasty noise by scraping the rotor.? No damage done, just a nuisance.?

obviously you will have to pull them apart again and look.? I know it's frustrating but we learn by making mistakes.?

LOL
They drove back up to NH the other day.  I won't see them again until Thanksgiving..
Good idea, though- I had bent the dustshield on my SHO back in the day and had an obnoxious squeak..

I did my Voyager's brakes tonight. Not too bad, took me a little under 2 hours to drive to the shop, get tools, get the van on a lift, do the work, clean up the bay, drive home, and shower.  $7.30 in bay fees, I went with super cheapie rotors and the medium pads, total of $79 in parts. 
They weren't in that bad condition- one pad was rubbing the rivet against the rotor when I braked though, and was completely chewed up on the bottom end.  I could probably have gotten more life out of the rotors, but oh well.

[93JC]

They weren't in that bad condition- one pad was rubbing the rivet against the rotor when I braked though, and was completely chewed up on the bottom end.? I could probably have gotten more life out of the rotors, but oh well.

The rear brakes on my Spirit were like this. So much material had worn away I could see through the rivets.

Not just one pad either: all four of them in the back.

[The Pirate]

The rear brakes on my Spirit were like this. So much material had worn away I could see through the rivets.

Not just one pad either: all four of them in the back.

You have rear discs on the Spirit?  When I first turned 16 my dad had a '94 Plymouth Acclaim, with just drum brakes on the rear.  I remember this, because it was the car that my dad taught me how to do brakes on.  Fun times...    It was also the 2.5L/3 spd auto combo, so that probably determined the trim level. It did have a package that added nice machined alloy wheels and some tasteful cladding.  I kind of miss that car, it was nice to drive and I liked the way it looked.

[93JC]

You have rear discs on the Spirit?

Yup. I assumed they were drums, but when I popped the wheel off I was surprised to have a disc rotor staring back at me.

It was a good thing I looked too: if I hadn't looked I'd have been quite miffed, because I would have bought shoes instead of pads.

When I first turned 16 my dad had a '94 Plymouth Acclaim, with just drum brakes on the rear.? I remember this, because it was the car that my dad taught me how to do brakes on.? Fun times...  It was also the 2.5L/3 spd auto combo, so that probably determined the trim level.

Ouch, I bet that was slow. Mine has the 3.0L V6/4-spd auto combo. I'd peg 0-60mph somewhere between 8.5 and 10.0 seconds.

It did have a package that added nice machined alloy wheels and some tasteful cladding.

I think they look quite crappy without some of the lower body cladding.

I kind of miss that car, it was nice to drive and I liked the way it looked.

I also like how it drives and looks.

I wish the chassis was stiffer than a wet noodle, and that the suspension was better so that it would handle better...  But all in all I'm quite pleased. Very underrated cars I think.