Chrysler 300, Ford 500, and Toyota Avalon Compared

[BMWDave]

I didn't think it was fair...

but deep down I loved it, for the simple fact the "mainstream" automotive media would print a review of a "domestic" on the same order of biasness (read C&D's first review of the Saturn ION, for example) , but would never question a Japanese product like that.

true. i didn't really like the article, but it was the first one that i've read that tears down a toyota product.

Where is this review of Raza's?  On automobear?

Right.

I'll check it out.

I wouldn't waste your time. It basically comes down to "I don't like Toyotas, I don't like anything that doesn't handle like a sports car, and I don't like odd-looking cars. Thus, I will think of some bad things to say about this odd-looking Toyota that doesn't handle like a sports car."

He never said that he expected it to handle like a sports car, he just expected it to be at least a bit fun to drive and apparantly it wasn't.  Also,  almost all reviewers donate at least sometime to the styling of cars.

It's no worse than many compact sedans, and he didn't go around calling them the worst vehicles he's ever driven. Also, most reviewers donate at least some time to a vehicle's strong points instead of just its faults and exaggerated faults.  

All I saw on Automobear was a Scion and Toyota "review" where he bashed Toyota.  Did he also make a specific Avalon review?

There was never an Avalon review, I was only talking about the Scion "review" that included assertions that the Corolla, Camry, Echo, and xB were all the worst cars he'd ever driven.

Maybe they were, I don't know if you are familar with his family's economic status, but they aren't exactly living from paycheck to paycheck.

To say he has a lot of money is not an excuse...they may be plebian cars to him, but they surely cannot be the worst cars he has driven.  Unless he only drives very good cars.

[Raghavan]

I didn't think it was fair...

but deep down I loved it, for the simple fact the "mainstream" automotive media would print a review of a "domestic" on the same order of biasness (read C&D's first review of the Saturn ION, for example) , but would never question a Japanese product like that.

true. i didn't really like the article, but it was the first one that i've read that tears down a toyota product.

Where is this review of Raza's?  On automobear?

Right.

I'll check it out.

I wouldn't waste your time. It basically comes down to "I don't like Toyotas, I don't like anything that doesn't handle like a sports car, and I don't like odd-looking cars. Thus, I will think of some bad things to say about this odd-looking Toyota that doesn't handle like a sports car."

He never said that he expected it to handle like a sports car, he just expected it to be at least a bit fun to drive and apparantly it wasn't.  Also,  almost all reviewers donate at least sometime to the styling of cars.

It's no worse than many compact sedans, and he didn't go around calling them the worst vehicles he's ever driven. Also, most reviewers donate at least some time to a vehicle's strong points instead of just its faults and exaggerated faults.  

All I saw on Automobear was a Scion and Toyota "review" where he bashed Toyota.  Did he also make a specific Avalon review?

There was never an Avalon review, I was only talking about the Scion "review" that included assertions that the Corolla, Camry, Echo, and xB were all the worst cars he'd ever driven.

Maybe they were, I don't know if you are familar with his family's economic status, but they aren't exactly living from paycheck to paycheck.

yeah, he's a bit spoiled.

[TBR]

I didn't think it was fair...

but deep down I loved it, for the simple fact the "mainstream" automotive media would print a review of a "domestic" on the same order of biasness (read C&D's first review of the Saturn ION, for example) , but would never question a Japanese product like that.

true. i didn't really like the article, but it was the first one that i've read that tears down a toyota product.

Where is this review of Raza's?  On automobear?

Right.

I'll check it out.

I wouldn't waste your time. It basically comes down to "I don't like Toyotas, I don't like anything that doesn't handle like a sports car, and I don't like odd-looking cars. Thus, I will think of some bad things to say about this odd-looking Toyota that doesn't handle like a sports car."

He never said that he expected it to handle like a sports car, he just expected it to be at least a bit fun to drive and apparantly it wasn't.  Also,  almost all reviewers donate at least sometime to the styling of cars.

It's no worse than many compact sedans, and he didn't go around calling them the worst vehicles he's ever driven. Also, most reviewers donate at least some time to a vehicle's strong points instead of just its faults and exaggerated faults.  

All I saw on Automobear was a Scion and Toyota "review" where he bashed Toyota.  Did he also make a specific Avalon review?

There was never an Avalon review, I was only talking about the Scion "review" that included assertions that the Corolla, Camry, Echo, and xB were all the worst cars he'd ever driven.

Maybe they were, I don't know if you are familar with his family's economic status, but they aren't exactly living from paycheck to paycheck.

To say he has a lot of money is not an excuse...they may be plebian cars to him, but they surely cannot be the worst cars he has driven.  Unless he only drives very good cars.

It is quite likely that he has only driven very nice cars. He lives in an extremely wealthy area and his parents are extremely wealthy. And, a car probably has to have at least a little character to be considered good by him, there is nothing wrong with high standards. You can get more excitement than Toyota has to offer at every price point.  

[BMWDave]

I didn't think it was fair...

but deep down I loved it, for the simple fact the "mainstream" automotive media would print a review of a "domestic" on the same order of biasness (read C&D's first review of the Saturn ION, for example) , but would never question a Japanese product like that.

true. i didn't really like the article, but it was the first one that i've read that tears down a toyota product.

Where is this review of Raza's?  On automobear?

Right.

I'll check it out.

I wouldn't waste your time. It basically comes down to "I don't like Toyotas, I don't like anything that doesn't handle like a sports car, and I don't like odd-looking cars. Thus, I will think of some bad things to say about this odd-looking Toyota that doesn't handle like a sports car."

He never said that he expected it to handle like a sports car, he just expected it to be at least a bit fun to drive and apparantly it wasn't.  Also,  almost all reviewers donate at least sometime to the styling of cars.

It's no worse than many compact sedans, and he didn't go around calling them the worst vehicles he's ever driven. Also, most reviewers donate at least some time to a vehicle's strong points instead of just its faults and exaggerated faults.  

All I saw on Automobear was a Scion and Toyota "review" where he bashed Toyota.  Did he also make a specific Avalon review?

There was never an Avalon review, I was only talking about the Scion "review" that included assertions that the Corolla, Camry, Echo, and xB were all the worst cars he'd ever driven.

Maybe they were, I don't know if you are familar with his family's economic status, but they aren't exactly living from paycheck to paycheck.

To say he has a lot of money is not an excuse...they may be plebian cars to him, but they surely cannot be the worst cars he has driven.  Unless he only drives very good cars.

It is quite likely that he has only driven very nice cars. He lives in an extremely wealthy area and his parents are extremely wealthy. And, a car probably has to have at least a little character to be considered good by him, there is nothing wrong with high standards. You can get more excitement than Toyota has to offer at every price point.

So judging a car by excitement, it is very possible that the Toyota hes driven are the worst cars.  Other than that, I dont see how they are the worst.

[Raghavan]

I didn't think it was fair...

but deep down I loved it, for the simple fact the "mainstream" automotive media would print a review of a "domestic" on the same order of biasness (read C&D's first review of the Saturn ION, for example) , but would never question a Japanese product like that.

true. i didn't really like the article, but it was the first one that i've read that tears down a toyota product.

Where is this review of Raza's?  On automobear?

Right.

I'll check it out.

I wouldn't waste your time. It basically comes down to "I don't like Toyotas, I don't like anything that doesn't handle like a sports car, and I don't like odd-looking cars. Thus, I will think of some bad things to say about this odd-looking Toyota that doesn't handle like a sports car."

He never said that he expected it to handle like a sports car, he just expected it to be at least a bit fun to drive and apparantly it wasn't.  Also,  almost all reviewers donate at least sometime to the styling of cars.

It's no worse than many compact sedans, and he didn't go around calling them the worst vehicles he's ever driven. Also, most reviewers donate at least some time to a vehicle's strong points instead of just its faults and exaggerated faults.  

All I saw on Automobear was a Scion and Toyota "review" where he bashed Toyota.  Did he also make a specific Avalon review?

There was never an Avalon review, I was only talking about the Scion "review" that included assertions that the Corolla, Camry, Echo, and xB were all the worst cars he'd ever driven.

Maybe they were, I don't know if you are familar with his family's economic status, but they aren't exactly living from paycheck to paycheck.

To say he has a lot of money is not an excuse...they may be plebian cars to him, but they surely cannot be the worst cars he has driven.  Unless he only drives very good cars.

It is quite likely that he has only driven very nice cars. He lives in an extremely wealthy area and his parents are extremely wealthy. And, a car probably has to have at least a little character to be considered good by him, there is nothing wrong with high standards. You can get more excitement than Toyota has to offer at every price point.

So judging a car by excitement, it is very possible that the Toyota hes driven are the worst cars.  Other than that, I dont see how they are the worst.

they're probably the worst because he's used to fast, cuddly cars like his benz, or sporty cars. he got a car that's neither. he was the wrong person to test the car.

[Catman]

Holy quotes Batman! :o  

[Raghavan]

Holy quotes Batman! :o

lets start another!

[TBR]

It is quite likely that he has only driven very nice cars. He lives in an extremely wealthy area and his parents are extremely wealthy. And, a car probably has to have at least a little character to be considered good by him, there is nothing wrong with high standards. You can get more excitement than Toyota has to offer at every price point.

So judging a car by excitement, it is very possible that the Toyota hes driven are the worst cars.  Other than that, I dont see how they are the worst.

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.  

[ifcar]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

[Raghavan]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

raza's the wrong customer for this car. wimmer could've tried to get his hands on one and tried it.

[TBR]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

[Raghavan]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

   

[ifcar]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.  

[TBR]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.  

[ifcar]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

He had not one positive comment to about the vehicle. While it certainly isn't perfect, it also has its obvious strengths that he ignored: value, space-efficiency, and fuel economy. He also treated the interior quality and seat comfort like it should be found in a luxury car instead of a $15K econobox, and I'm inclined to believe that he hadn't driven a single close competitor to get any frame of comparison.

[Raghavan]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

but he absolutely tears it to pieces. he's expecting too much out of an econobox, and he doesnt know crap about econoboxes.

[TBR]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

He had not one positive comment to about the vehicle. While it certainly isn't perfect, it also has its obvious strengths that he ignored: value, space-efficiency, and fuel economy. He also treated the interior quality and seat comfort like it should be found in a luxury car instead of a $15K econobox, and I'm inclined to believe that he hadn't driven a single close competitor to get any frame of comparison.

You have complained numerous times about uncomfortable seats and low interior quality in equally econo econoboxes, sort of a double standard if you ask me.  

Also,  he apparantly wasn't very impressed with space efficency (and I don't blame him, the xB really doesn't have much real world capacity unless you fold down the seats).  

[Raghavan]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

He had not one positive comment to about the vehicle. While it certainly isn't perfect, it also has its obvious strengths that he ignored: value, space-efficiency, and fuel economy. He also treated the interior quality and seat comfort like it should be found in a luxury car instead of a $15K econobox, and I'm inclined to believe that he hadn't driven a single close competitor to get any frame of comparison.

You have complained numerous times about uncomfortable seats and low interior quality in equally econo econoboxes, sort of a double standard if you ask me.  

Also,  he apparantly wasn't very impressed with space efficency (and I don't blame him, the xB really doesn't have much real world capacity unless you fold down the seats).

for it's puny size, it's quite space efficient.

[TBR]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

He had not one positive comment to about the vehicle. While it certainly isn't perfect, it also has its obvious strengths that he ignored: value, space-efficiency, and fuel economy. He also treated the interior quality and seat comfort like it should be found in a luxury car instead of a $15K econobox, and I'm inclined to believe that he hadn't driven a single close competitor to get any frame of comparison.

You have complained numerous times about uncomfortable seats and low interior quality in equally econo econoboxes, sort of a double standard if you ask me.  

Also,  he apparantly wasn't very impressed with space efficency (and I don't blame him, the xB really doesn't have much real world capacity unless you fold down the seats).

for it's puny size, it's quite space efficient.

I agree that it has a lot of space, but it is all vertical space, not really useful unless you are carrying furniture or something similar.  

[ifcar]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

He had not one positive comment to about the vehicle. While it certainly isn't perfect, it also has its obvious strengths that he ignored: value, space-efficiency, and fuel economy. He also treated the interior quality and seat comfort like it should be found in a luxury car instead of a $15K econobox, and I'm inclined to believe that he hadn't driven a single close competitor to get any frame of comparison.

You have complained numerous times about uncomfortable seats and low interior quality in equally econo econoboxes, sort of a double standard if you ask me.  

Also,  he apparantly wasn't very impressed with space efficency (and I don't blame him, the xB really doesn't have much real world capacity unless you fold down the seats).

When I complain about the seats of low-end cars, I say that they're poor compared to other low-end cars. It isn't clear what Raza's comparison was, but I doubt it was to anything under $20K.

And space efficiency doesn't necessarily refer to a lot of space, it's the amount of space for the size. When Raza has found a car that has more space and is not as long as a current Mazda Miata, then he can criticize the xB's. Also, the space-efficiency also brings out exceptional rear-seat legroom, more so than most midsize sedans and on par with even the Five Hundred/Montego in that regard.

[TBR]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

He had not one positive comment to about the vehicle. While it certainly isn't perfect, it also has its obvious strengths that he ignored: value, space-efficiency, and fuel economy. He also treated the interior quality and seat comfort like it should be found in a luxury car instead of a $15K econobox, and I'm inclined to believe that he hadn't driven a single close competitor to get any frame of comparison.

You have complained numerous times about uncomfortable seats and low interior quality in equally econo econoboxes, sort of a double standard if you ask me.  

Also,  he apparantly wasn't very impressed with space efficency (and I don't blame him, the xB really doesn't have much real world capacity unless you fold down the seats).

When I complain about the seats of low-end cars, I say that they're poor compared to other low-end cars. It isn't clear what Raza's comparison was, but I doubt it was to anything under $20K.

And space efficiency doesn't necessarily refer to a lot of space, it's the amount of space for the size. When Raza has found a car that has more space and is not as long as a current Mazda Miata, then he can criticize the xB's. Also, the space-efficiency also brings out exceptional rear-seat legroom, more so than most midsize sedans and on par with even the Five Hundred/Montego in that regard.

Whatever, I am tired of arguing with you. You are biased towards Toyotas and Raza is biased towards exciting cars, so you two go at it, I don't know why I got involved in the first place.  

[Raza]

How often must I say that being the best at being mediocre is not an accomplishment?  I've spent enough time defending my review of the xB, I'll bring it to these few statements.  

Toyota does not make exciting cars, generally.  When they put their mind to it, they can (see MR-2 thread in Fast Lane), but when they create a car that is intended to sucker young kids into spending money for an exceptional car at a low price and succeed with a car that has a good price, but no driving excitement whatsoever and only midpack quality it gets on my nerves because, like musicians, I hold automakers to a high standard of art, expecting them not to sell out in order to make a higher profit.  Toyota does not meet those standards, as almost every move they've made is to maximze revenue at the expense of the art of the automobile.  

I see no problem with holding cars to high standards, nor do I think it inconcievable that a cheap car can be fun.  As far as the Camry is concerned, it is a terribly engineered vehicle.  At highway speeds, you can feel the car wafting about in light wind.  In emergencies, the excessive body roll makes the car unpredictable.  The Accord, another car I will often lambast for being boring, is a far better engineered car than the Camry, and if I had to choose between the Accord and Camry, I would choose the Accord in a second.  I will also never recommend the Camry to anyone who asks my advice, and I also try to avoid being in one.  

Through all the controversy surrounding my review, I've tried to be as cordial and accomodating to differing opinions but at this point, I'm tired of it.  And I will never praise a car for being boring nor mediocre.

[ifcar]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

He had not one positive comment to about the vehicle. While it certainly isn't perfect, it also has its obvious strengths that he ignored: value, space-efficiency, and fuel economy. He also treated the interior quality and seat comfort like it should be found in a luxury car instead of a $15K econobox, and I'm inclined to believe that he hadn't driven a single close competitor to get any frame of comparison.

You have complained numerous times about uncomfortable seats and low interior quality in equally econo econoboxes, sort of a double standard if you ask me.  

Also,  he apparantly wasn't very impressed with space efficency (and I don't blame him, the xB really doesn't have much real world capacity unless you fold down the seats).

When I complain about the seats of low-end cars, I say that they're poor compared to other low-end cars. It isn't clear what Raza's comparison was, but I doubt it was to anything under $20K.

And space efficiency doesn't necessarily refer to a lot of space, it's the amount of space for the size. When Raza has found a car that has more space and is not as long as a current Mazda Miata, then he can criticize the xB's. Also, the space-efficiency also brings out exceptional rear-seat legroom, more so than most midsize sedans and on par with even the Five Hundred/Montego in that regard.

Whatever, I am tired of arguing with you. You are biased towards Toyotas and Raza is biased towards exciting cars, so you two go at it, I don't know why I got involved in the first place.

Pointing out that a vehicle is not flawed in every conceivable way is biased?    

[ifcar]

How often must I say that being the best at being mediocre is not an accomplishment?  I've spent enough time defending my review of the xB, I'll bring it to these few statements.  

Toyota does not make exciting cars, generally.  When they put their mind to it, they can (see MR-2 thread in Fast Lane), but when they create a car that is intended to sucker young kids into spending money for an exceptional car at a low price and succeed with a car that has a good price, but no driving excitement whatsoever and only midpack quality it gets on my nerves because, like musicians, I hold automakers to a high standard of art, expecting them not to sell out in order to make a higher profit.  Toyota does not meet those standards, as almost every move they've made is to maximze revenue at the expense of the art of the automobile.  

I see no problem with holding cars to high standards, nor do I think it inconcievable that a cheap car can be fun.  As far as the Camry is concerned, it is a terribly engineered vehicle.  At highway speeds, you can feel the car wafting about in light wind.  In emergencies, the excessive body roll makes the car unpredictable.  The Accord, another car I will often lambast for being boring, is a far better engineered car than the Camry, and if I had to choose between the Accord and Camry, I would choose the Accord in a second.  I will also never recommend the Camry to anyone who asks my advice, and I also try to avoid being in one.  

Through all the controversy surrounding my review, I've tried to be as cordial and accomodating to differing opinions but at this point, I'm tired of it.  And I will never praise a car for being boring nor mediocre.

You never did go through with this when I suggested it before, but I'll say it again:
Do a comparison test of everything that you can get for $15K new. And put them in an order, without any ties. You'll find that often enough, what is mediocre by your standards is above average in a low-end class. And if you hold all cars to the same standard as you did in that review, I'd expect you to add about half of those vehicles to the "worst vehicles ever" list.

[TBR]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

He had not one positive comment to about the vehicle. While it certainly isn't perfect, it also has its obvious strengths that he ignored: value, space-efficiency, and fuel economy. He also treated the interior quality and seat comfort like it should be found in a luxury car instead of a $15K econobox, and I'm inclined to believe that he hadn't driven a single close competitor to get any frame of comparison.

You have complained numerous times about uncomfortable seats and low interior quality in equally econo econoboxes, sort of a double standard if you ask me.  

Also,  he apparantly wasn't very impressed with space efficency (and I don't blame him, the xB really doesn't have much real world capacity unless you fold down the seats).

When I complain about the seats of low-end cars, I say that they're poor compared to other low-end cars. It isn't clear what Raza's comparison was, but I doubt it was to anything under $20K.

And space efficiency doesn't necessarily refer to a lot of space, it's the amount of space for the size. When Raza has found a car that has more space and is not as long as a current Mazda Miata, then he can criticize the xB's. Also, the space-efficiency also brings out exceptional rear-seat legroom, more so than most midsize sedans and on par with even the Five Hundred/Montego in that regard.

Whatever, I am tired of arguing with you. You are biased towards Toyotas and Raza is biased towards exciting cars, so you two go at it, I don't know why I got involved in the first place.

Pointing out that a vehicle is not flawed in every conceivable way is biased?  

Drooling over a car because of its badge is biased, that is what you do with Toyota. Anyway, I am done arguing with you. If you have anything to say say it to Raza, not me.  

[Raza]

How often must I say that being the best at being mediocre is not an accomplishment?  I've spent enough time defending my review of the xB, I'll bring it to these few statements. 

Toyota does not make exciting cars, generally.  When they put their mind to it, they can (see MR-2 thread in Fast Lane), but when they create a car that is intended to sucker young kids into spending money for an exceptional car at a low price and succeed with a car that has a good price, but no driving excitement whatsoever and only midpack quality it gets on my nerves because, like musicians, I hold automakers to a high standard of art, expecting them not to sell out in order to make a higher profit.  Toyota does not meet those standards, as almost every move they've made is to maximze revenue at the expense of the art of the automobile. 

I see no problem with holding cars to high standards, nor do I think it inconcievable that a cheap car can be fun.  As far as the Camry is concerned, it is a terribly engineered vehicle.  At highway speeds, you can feel the car wafting about in light wind.  In emergencies, the excessive body roll makes the car unpredictable.  The Accord, another car I will often lambast for being boring, is a far better engineered car than the Camry, and if I had to choose between the Accord and Camry, I would choose the Accord in a second.  I will also never recommend the Camry to anyone who asks my advice, and I also try to avoid being in one. 

Through all the controversy surrounding my review, I've tried to be as cordial and accomodating to differing opinions but at this point, I'm tired of it.  And I will never praise a car for being boring nor mediocre.

You never did go through with this when I suggested it before, but I'll say it again:
Do a comparison test of everything that you can get for $15K new. And put them in an order, without any ties. You'll find that often enough, what is mediocre by your standards is above average in a low-end class. And if you hold all cars to the same standard as you did in that review, I'd expect you to add about half of those vehicles to the "worst vehicles ever" list.

I can assure that the Mazda3i and Ford Focus would top the list.  Fun to drive and cheap do not need to be mutually exclusive.

It's no wonder you love the xB.  It's like a 15 thousand dollar Lexus.  Isolated and not fun to drive.

And I had some positives to say about the xB.  You're just so clouded by your love of everything boring you can't see just how mediocre the car actually is.  

[Raza]

I didn't think it was fair...

but deep down I loved it, for the simple fact the "mainstream" automotive media would print a review of a "domestic" on the same order of biasness (read C&D's first review of the Saturn ION, for example) , but would never question a Japanese product like that.

:D

Yes, I was rough on the vehicle.  But I believe that I had the decency to say outright that I was never a fan of Toyota vehicles.  And a car like the xB perpetuated my dislike of Toyota for making such boring vehicles.

[ifcar]

How can you say that if you don't know what cars he has driven? Admit it or not, the Camry and Corolla are really only good in one department, refinement. And refinement probably doesn't mean much to him since he has always been around MBs and BMWs. There is nothing wrong with expecting more than quiet competence out of a car, which is why Raza bought a Passat instead of an Accord or Camry.

If he were to fairly review every mainstream car available by those standards, he'd probably call more than half the worst cars he's ever driven. What's the point of that?

What is the point of you drooling over everything boring?

None, boring cars are often mediocre in other ways as well. But treating all boring cars as bad in every way (which he most certainly did in that review) is certainly wrong.

I don't recall him complaining one bit about the xB's ride or noise level, he just complained about everything that is medicore about it. The only thing I had a problem with were his statements about price, the xB is a good value no matter how you look at it. He just has different priorities than a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with that.

He had not one positive comment to about the vehicle. While it certainly isn't perfect, it also has its obvious strengths that he ignored: value, space-efficiency, and fuel economy. He also treated the interior quality and seat comfort like it should be found in a luxury car instead of a $15K econobox, and I'm inclined to believe that he hadn't driven a single close competitor to get any frame of comparison.

You have complained numerous times about uncomfortable seats and low interior quality in equally econo econoboxes, sort of a double standard if you ask me.  

Also,  he apparantly wasn't very impressed with space efficency (and I don't blame him, the xB really doesn't have much real world capacity unless you fold down the seats).

When I complain about the seats of low-end cars, I say that they're poor compared to other low-end cars. It isn't clear what Raza's comparison was, but I doubt it was to anything under $20K.

And space efficiency doesn't necessarily refer to a lot of space, it's the amount of space for the size. When Raza has found a car that has more space and is not as long as a current Mazda Miata, then he can criticize the xB's. Also, the space-efficiency also brings out exceptional rear-seat legroom, more so than most midsize sedans and on par with even the Five Hundred/Montego in that regard.

Whatever, I am tired of arguing with you. You are biased towards Toyotas and Raza is biased towards exciting cars, so you two go at it, I don't know why I got involved in the first place.

Pointing out that a vehicle is not flawed in every conceivable way is biased?  

Drooling over a car because of its badge is biased, that is what you do with Toyota. Anyway, I am done arguing with you. If you have anything to say say it to Raza, not me.

Drooling over Toyota?  

I already pointed out that the xB is a flawed car. It's slow, stiff-riding, not particularly refined, and isn't fun to drive. But that doesn't make it an awful car either, it's roomy, fuel-efficient, and inexpensive. Which makes it a worthwhile econobox (no pun intended).

[ifcar]

How often must I say that being the best at being mediocre is not an accomplishment?  I've spent enough time defending my review of the xB, I'll bring it to these few statements. 

Toyota does not make exciting cars, generally.  When they put their mind to it, they can (see MR-2 thread in Fast Lane), but when they create a car that is intended to sucker young kids into spending money for an exceptional car at a low price and succeed with a car that has a good price, but no driving excitement whatsoever and only midpack quality it gets on my nerves because, like musicians, I hold automakers to a high standard of art, expecting them not to sell out in order to make a higher profit.  Toyota does not meet those standards, as almost every move they've made is to maximze revenue at the expense of the art of the automobile. 

I see no problem with holding cars to high standards, nor do I think it inconcievable that a cheap car can be fun.  As far as the Camry is concerned, it is a terribly engineered vehicle.  At highway speeds, you can feel the car wafting about in light wind.  In emergencies, the excessive body roll makes the car unpredictable.  The Accord, another car I will often lambast for being boring, is a far better engineered car than the Camry, and if I had to choose between the Accord and Camry, I would choose the Accord in a second.  I will also never recommend the Camry to anyone who asks my advice, and I also try to avoid being in one. 

Through all the controversy surrounding my review, I've tried to be as cordial and accomodating to differing opinions but at this point, I'm tired of it.  And I will never praise a car for being boring nor mediocre.

You never did go through with this when I suggested it before, but I'll say it again:
Do a comparison test of everything that you can get for $15K new. And put them in an order, without any ties. You'll find that often enough, what is mediocre by your standards is above average in a low-end class. And if you hold all cars to the same standard as you did in that review, I'd expect you to add about half of those vehicles to the "worst vehicles ever" list.

I can assure that the Mazda3i and Ford Focus would top the list.  Fun to drive and cheap do not need to be mutually exclusive.

It's no wonder you love the xB.  It's like a 15 thousand dollar Lexus.  Isolated and not fun to drive.

And I had some positives to say about the xB.  You're just so clouded by your love of everything boring you can't see just how mediocre the car actually is.

I just read through it again, to be entirely sure. And the only things that came close to a positive thing was simply "this aspect wasn't horrible" and was usually followed immidiately by another flaw to offset that. Criticism of the back seat space was the worst of many offenders, BTW.

[Raza]

How often must I say that being the best at being mediocre is not an accomplishment?  I've spent enough time defending my review of the xB, I'll bring it to these few statements. 

Toyota does not make exciting cars, generally.  When they put their mind to it, they can (see MR-2 thread in Fast Lane), but when they create a car that is intended to sucker young kids into spending money for an exceptional car at a low price and succeed with a car that has a good price, but no driving excitement whatsoever and only midpack quality it gets on my nerves because, like musicians, I hold automakers to a high standard of art, expecting them not to sell out in order to make a higher profit.  Toyota does not meet those standards, as almost every move they've made is to maximze revenue at the expense of the art of the automobile. 

I see no problem with holding cars to high standards, nor do I think it inconcievable that a cheap car can be fun.  As far as the Camry is concerned, it is a terribly engineered vehicle.  At highway speeds, you can feel the car wafting about in light wind.  In emergencies, the excessive body roll makes the car unpredictable.  The Accord, another car I will often lambast for being boring, is a far better engineered car than the Camry, and if I had to choose between the Accord and Camry, I would choose the Accord in a second.  I will also never recommend the Camry to anyone who asks my advice, and I also try to avoid being in one. 

Through all the controversy surrounding my review, I've tried to be as cordial and accomodating to differing opinions but at this point, I'm tired of it.  And I will never praise a car for being boring nor mediocre.

You never did go through with this when I suggested it before, but I'll say it again:
Do a comparison test of everything that you can get for $15K new. And put them in an order, without any ties. You'll find that often enough, what is mediocre by your standards is above average in a low-end class. And if you hold all cars to the same standard as you did in that review, I'd expect you to add about half of those vehicles to the "worst vehicles ever" list.

I can assure that the Mazda3i and Ford Focus would top the list.  Fun to drive and cheap do not need to be mutually exclusive.

It's no wonder you love the xB.  It's like a 15 thousand dollar Lexus.  Isolated and not fun to drive.

And I had some positives to say about the xB.  You're just so clouded by your love of everything boring you can't see just how mediocre the car actually is.

I just read through it again, to be entirely sure. And the only things that came close to a positive thing was simply "this aspect wasn't horrible" and was usually followed immidiately by another flaw to offset that. Criticism of the back seat space was the worst of many offenders, BTW.

I said there was legroom.  

You're a little crazy about this, aren't you?  I hold a car to a standard, but you seem to love everything that isn't fun to drive.