Cnet.com Gives Lexus a Perfect 10/10

[The Pirate]

I guess you are not very updated with the recent group test.

The MB S-Class anihilated the new Lexus LS on Car and Driver Luxury Car group test in December this year.

Which is basically what I said.  That hardly means that people who buy the LS made the wrong choice though.

[cawimmer430]

Not trolling at all here, but the S-class should be a better car than the Lexus, as it's a much more expensive car.

It's more expensive because of MB's prestige pricing policy.

[The Pirate]

It's more expensive because of MB's prestige pricing policy.

Comparing base prices, the Lexus is about 25K cheaper than the S550.  Personally, I would buy the LS everytime, as it's a cheaper, but still competent car.  None of these cars are going to handle like an Elise or a 911 anyway.  I'd take the money saved by buying the LS and get a fun weekend car.

[cawimmer430]

Comparing base prices, the Lexus is about 25K cheaper than the S550. Personally, I would buy the LS everytime, as it's a cheaper, but still competent car.  None of these cars are going to handle like an Elise or a 911 anyway.  I'd take the money saved by buying the LS and get a fun weekend car.

Prestige pricing. 

[The Pirate]

Prestige pricing. 

I understand that.  Prestige doesn't really mean anything to me though, I'd never pay that much for a car.

[cawimmer430]

I understand that.  Prestige doesn't really mean anything to me though, I'd never pay that much for a car.

And I'd never buy a Lexus simply because I am old school when it comes to luxury cars. I like luxury cars that fascinate because of their brand history and prestige. There's nothing to drool about when you hear the name Lexus IMO.

[The Pirate]

MB definitely has a history, and much more cachet than most manufacturers.? I like a lot of the older Mercs too.


I'm just a cheap bastard.

[cawimmer430]

MB definitely has a history, and much more cachet than most manufacturers.  I like a lot of the older Mercs too.


I'm just a cheap bastard.

[ifcar]

Most people here are enthusiasts. When it comes to cars, we want excitement, involvement and perhaps some brand image (history, tradition etc.).

Toyota's are great cars hands down, even I can't complain about that. There's enough evidence out there to support the fact that Toyota's are very reliable, well-built and bring you from A to B safely (for the most part).

My annoyance with Toyota comes from their gay ass fanboys.

"I would take the Toyota Gaygo over the Ferrari Enzo because the Toyota Gaygo is going to be more reliable."

I think anyone who has the audacity to say such a bullshit statement isn't a car fan or an enthusiast. True, the Toyota Gaygo will probably be more reliable, but anyone who picks such a small boring POS city car over a car that has been built with years of motorsport experience etc. has to be crazy - for the most part.

True, there will be people out there for whom the Aygo is more appealing. I've often said I'd take a Mercedes C180 Kompressor over a C350 or C55 AMG because that car appeals to my needs. But with these guys, you know they're trolling and rubbing in the reliability aspect. I've ignored this for a long time, but I just can't take their bullshit anymore. Hence, my increased anti-Toyota stance.

And for the record, I'd take a Ferrari Enzo, Bugatti Veyron or a Hummer H2 over a POS Toyota Gaygo anyday. 

My complaint isn't about people who don't care for Toyotas for themselves. It's those who say that they're no good for anyone else because they're not fun that are just duckspeaking.

[nickdrinkwater]

I think people are far too harsh on Toyota here. 

For the most part, their cars are well built, comfortable and reliable.  They can also be fun, which would surprise people!  I had alot of fun driving my mother's Yaris last year.  The Aygo is a fun little run around and decent value for money.  The Yaris is one of the best superminis out there.   I find the MR2 appealing too. 

In the US lineup, the FJ Cruiser looks cool!  And the Avalon is smart and classy.

The Corolla and Avensis are dull, I admit.  But they're far from the worst in class, and I'm sure the new Auris will be competitive.  A Toyota is a dependable and sensible buy most of the time.

I'm no big Toyota fan, but I do think they deserve more respect than they get sometimes.

[gasoline]

I think everybody respects them. That just makes it more maddening I guess...

[cawimmer430]

My complaint isn't about people who don't care for Toyotas for themselves. It's those who say that they're no good for anyone else because they're not fun that are just duckspeaking.

Well I do claim that Toyota's are dull styling wise, and possibly from a driving POV too, but I do acknowledge that they're made for people who want a reliable, affordable and safe car that brings them from A to B.

[HurricaneSteve]

We're certainly more mature and open minded that C&D.  But that doesn't mean we simply have to accept whatever drivel is thrown to us by bell curve automakers. 

No offense but based on what I've seen, I don't sense any more maturity here than C&D. Slightly better moderation but still quite a bit of bickering and intolerance. There are a few members whom I enjoy reading but the amount of junk that must be waded through to find those diamonds is getting more and more difficult with each visit.

[HurricaneSteve]

That's not the only reason people think they are bad.  They make incompetent cars that sell in droves because the weak-minded continually pay them cash money for them.  That gives them no drive to improve.

When my parents picked out their Camry 6 years ago, they test drove a number of cars and found it was the best car for their money. They're not weak-minded people, nor do they worship CR and their dot system. Other people I know that own Toyotas or Scions are intelligent, hard working people that put alot of thought into expensive purchases as well. I thought being a car enthusiast meant that you understood the car industry enough to respect people's choices.

[HurricaneSteve]

It's just that people are sick of the sales-run of entirely unlovable cars. They exude nothing, ifcar, nothing at all.
I want to feel something when I look at a car--anything, but there is nothing to feel with Toyotas.

If they didn't sell at such a prodigious rate people wouldn't care, but people--no, sheeple--are abandoniing VWs and other perfectly good makes of car in droves because a toaster magazine tells them to "look for the red dot."

(Red dot?!! Red dot??My gosh! How old are we???! Two years old??? Arghhhhh!!! Iffy, I cannot take it anymore!)

Please explain to me what the Malibu, Cobalt, and Impala "exude"? I don't see why Toyota gets ragged on so much when other manufacturers make just as many, if not more "mediocre" cars. Part of me thinks that if Toyota was an American based company there would be absolutely no complaints from the crowd.

[HurricaneSteve]

I also read the ClubLexus forums from time to time: and those boards are full of Lexus assholes too. 

I really enjoyed reading the thread where the LS460 was placed last in the C&D comparison. All of those posers in that forum screamed "BIAS" and how the Lexus should have been first place because it's so reliable etc.

Thankfully, there were a few level-headed posters who said it right: the S-Class owns this segment.

Wimmer, I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you, but how is what you're doing any different from what those Toyota fanboys do? All I hear from German car fans is how cheap and worthless Japanese luxury cars are, just because they don't have the history. Don't you think that would get annoying as well? I mean who are they to brand people who purchase non-German luxury vehicles as wannabes or imposters? I'm sure you get tired of hearing the reliability argument, but there's also alot of people out there that don't see this "prestige" edge that German car fans have to rub it in to anyone who doesn't own an M-B or BMW. If you want to continue this crusade of yours, I won't stop you but I guess I'm still shocked that the same guy who wrote such professional sounding pieces just a couple years ago is now content with what was posted above.

[HurricaneSteve]

My complaint isn't about people who don't care for Toyotas for themselves. It's those who say that they're no good for anyone else because they're not fun that are just duckspeaking.

Well said, IFCAR. I find it funny how Toyota buyers are all sheep, yet no one is complaining about the number of trucks and SUV's roaming our streets, bought by many many many more "sheep". There are nearly 3 times as many F-150's out there as Camry's, yet somehow they're all intelligent buyers who know what they're looking for and the Camry owner is some schmuck who can't think for themselves. Why the double standard?

[850CSi]

I thought being a car enthusiast meant that you understood the car industry enough to respect people's choices.

It also means that you usually like to drive, and there is not a single Toyota or Lexus that isn't at or near the bottom of its class in that category, save for the MR-2 and last-gen IS300 (both brilliant cars now out of production).

[HurricaneSteve]

It also means that you usually like to drive, and there is not a single Toyota or Lexus that isn't at or near the bottom of its class in that category, save for the MR-2 and last-gen IS300 (both brilliant cars now out of production).

There are a number of M-B's that aren't particularly fun to drive, so are they really enthusiast's cars or status symbols? Are the CTS and STS that much more fun to drive than the IS and GS? What about the new RAV4 and FJ?

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you, but how is what you're doing any different from what those Toyota fanboys do? All I hear from German car fans is how cheap and worthless Japanese luxury cars are, just because they don't have the history. Don't you think that would get annoying as well? I mean who are they to brand people who purchase non-German luxury vehicles as wannabes or imposters? I'm sure you get tired of hearing the reliability argument, but there's also alot of people out there that don't see this "prestige" edge that German car fans have to rub it in to anyone who doesn't own an M-B or BMW. If you want to continue this crusade of yours, I won't stop you but I guess I'm still shocked that the same guy who wrote such professional sounding pieces just a couple years ago is now content with what was posted above.

I don't slam Japanese cars for a "lack of prestige", because they do have prestige, but not the same kind of prestige as the European brands for example. I myself like a number of Japanese cars very much.

And yes, I realize acting like this is childish, but I need to vent some steam. I assure you this will stop sooner or later. 

[ChrisV]

If you want to continue this crusade of yours, I won't stop you but I guess I'm still shocked that the same guy who wrote such professional sounding pieces just a couple years ago is now content with what was posted above.

I thoroughly agree. The snobby bullshit is worse than annoying.

Wimmer, if you know it SHOULD stop, then stop it now, not merely "soon." Grow up for once.

[cawimmer430]

I thoroughly agree. The snobby bullshit is worse than annoying.

Wimmer, if you know it SHOULD stop, then stop it now, not merely "soon." Grow up for once.

*Sigh* It was fun while it lasted...

[ChrisV]

It also means that you usually like to drive,

It also means you like to drive EVERYTHING, not just a few selected levels of effort. A good car enthusiast can adapt themselves to the car, rather than requiring every car to adapt to their own style.

[ChrisV]

*Sigh* It was fun while it lasted...

My days of not taking you seriously are coming to a middle.

[cawimmer430]

My days of not taking you seriously are coming to a middle.

I better stop then. 

[Submariner]

No offense but based on what I've seen, I don't sense any more maturity here than C&D. Slightly better moderation but still quite a bit of bickering and intolerance. There are a few members whom I enjoy reading but the amount of junk that must be waded through to find those diamonds is getting more and more difficult with each visit.

I don't know what era of C&D ypu're thinking of but the difference is huge and you know that.  Sure, this site may not be perfect (what one is?) but certanly...we never get into pissing matches over rediculous political threads (the kind that dominate C&D) and for the most part our members are level headed, intellegent, and fun to communicate with.  (Do I even need to bring up members from C&D?)

[850CSi]

There are a number of M-B's that aren't particularly fun to drive, so are they really enthusiast's cars or status symbols? Are the CTS and STS that much more fun to drive than the IS and GS? What about the new RAV4 and FJ?

MBs may not be as engaging as BMWs due to less direct steering and a little more isolation from the road, but they are still regularly at or near the top of their respective classes as far as dynamic competence. The same goes with the CTS and STS. A lot enthusiasts don't like Toyota/Lexus because, in many cases, they're the automotive equivalent of a Maytag. I understand why some people like them - but there is undeniably a sheep mentality that is part of it.

[850CSi]

It also means you like to drive EVERYTHING, not just a few selected levels of effort. A good car enthusiast can adapt themselves to the car, rather than requiring every car to adapt to their own style.

I happen to be a car enthusiast who sees no pleasure in driving a sleeping pill.

[Tave]

Double digits? I'd say so!  And yes, I'm certain that the Camry was incompetent to the point where it was dangerous.  Horribly floaty, up to the point where you could get seasick driving at 80mph.  Also, I'd hate see the mangled corpses of the passengers in a Camry if they ever try to avoid an accident in one. 

I've seen nothing in any review that indicates that the Camry handles dangerously. It just isn't fun. There are lots of other softly-sprung cars that also behave safely. It's not designed to go double digits, but how many people need their car to?

ifcar, my car breaks "double digits" every day in first gear when I step on the gas

[ifcar]

Bah, you know what I meant. :P