The Measure of a Car Company - its Four Cylinder Mid-Rangers

[Morris Minor]

I've been thinking recently that one can gauge an automobile manufacturer pretty well by its offerings in the mid-range, cloth seated, four-bangers aimed at Joe Average. This thought train was kicked off by C&D's recent comparison test of these basic sedans.

Forget about optioning up to the leather interiors, the climate control, the silky six-cylinder motor. Forget about the seven speaker surround sound & the gleaming rims. I'll forgo the navigation system, buy instead a $3.99 Rand-McNally map, and put the savings towards the kids' college education.

The real measure of a company, the evidence of its commitment to quality, careful engineering, and value, is to be found in its entry in the $20,000 segment.

If they offer a cynically-put-together box that is only barely good enough to be flogged out to rental fleet buyers, you know that the company has either lost the plot, or never had it in the first place. On the other hand, the company may be ingenious enough to put together a gem. This would be a car to be taken seriously by careful buyers, the ones who measure their success on a balance sheet rather than the size of the car loan they can swing. Such a car would indicate that the company's corporate culture is OK. They got the basics right.

When you get the basics right, people take you seriously, your cars sell themselves. You don't do coarse huckster stuff, like zero percent finance, or rebates.

If your offering in the $20,000 four-banger range is excellent, the chances are good I'm also going to look at the rest of your offerings.

I've rented many cars over past few years; they are all a blur, except one, an Accord LX from Enterprise two years or so ago; it was such fun.

[goldenlover1101]

I agree with you completely, the basic bulk of an automakers production is its mid rangers and that is the best gauge of an automaker. Any automaker can do a low production high image car (Ford Gt) while its mainstream offerings (Taurus, Focus, Crown Vic) are lagging behind others'. Ford let those all go way too long without a redesign. I used Ford as an example but there are many automakers who do the same IMO ford is just the worse

[sportyaccordy]

I agree wholeheartedly. For the Accord to have come with a fully independent suspension- double wishbones in front and multilink in the rear at that- is commendable. The payoffs in both sure-footedness and ride quality definitely paid off.

Plus while many argue that a flagship captures the essence of a company, I disagree. Look at the Mazda6 vs. the Camry. The '6 means business while still being practical. Yes, it makes some sacrifices, but for someone who doesn't absolutely loathe driving, I imagine it to be a Ferarri in comparison to the Camry. The Camry is an amalgation of compromises for the broadest appeal. "People say Camrys are too boring...quick, throw in some pizazz!!! People LIKE the Altima? Quick, make the 3.5SE!" The Camry isn't innovative or daring in any way...it's only redeeming quality seems to be that Toyota makes it.

And this applies on the other end as well. The Ford GT is an awesome car- but even as a resident of NYC I have yet to see one. Plus it shares nothing in common with a 500 or Fusion. When I see a GT I don't think Fusion/500. What is the point? And domestic manufacturers take it to the extreme with their concept cars. The cars never come out and are nothing like the cars they make. They cost millions to produce and basically have no point. Why would I buy a car from a company who makes such illogical decisions, especially during a critical point in its longevity?

I'm rambling. But my point is, I agree, and think that manufacturers should stop catering to enthusaists and the press and make their halo cars the cars people actually buy.

[The Pirate]

Very true.


My dad rents quite frequently when he travels for business, and if it's something new (to either one of us), he always lets me take it for a drive.

Last one that stood out positively was a 2006 Hyundai Sonata.  It was very peppy for a 4 cylinder, had great brakes, good steering and very confident handling.  Like Morris Minor said, that car definitely influenced my thoughts towards Hyundai products, and I would consider buying one.  It's a sharp looking car too, IMO.

[the Teuton]

You mean a real, fun car that an average Joe Schmoe can afford.  I think the Fusion, Mazda 6, and Accord get my votes on that front.

[ro51092]

I immediately think of the WRX and the Legacy.

The VW GTI/GLI also come to mind.

[pommes-t]

VW Passat. Entry price in the low 20ies, an absolutely awesome 200hp engine under the hood, great seats, great roadholding, but still comfy. And, if I see how great the new Golf does in long-time tests, it'S probably very reliable (after many long years of completely sucking, the Golf 5 has won the AMS long-time test (62k miles) with only one unplanned workshop stay).

Plus it's simply nicer than most other big mainstreamers. IMO

[gasoline]

Hmmm. Porsche must not be doing to well here.
Will be more constructive later.

[93JC]

VW Passat. Entry price in the low 20ies, an absolutely awesome 200hp engine under the hood, great seats, great roadholding, but still comfy. And, if I see how great the new Golf does in long-time tests, it'S probably very reliable (after many long years of completely sucking, the Golf 5 has won the AMS long-time test (62k miles) with only one unplanned workshop stay).

Plus it's simply nicer than most other big mainstreamers. IMO

The Passat 2.0T is too expensive to capture many buyers. A good $5000 too expensive. It goes for $30,000 here, around $40,000 for the 3.6 VR6.

[SJ_GTI]

Very true.


My dad rents quite frequently when he travels for business, and if it's something new (to either one of us), he always lets me take it for a drive.

Last one that stood out positively was a 2006 Hyundai Sonata.? It was very peppy for a 4 cylinder, had great brakes, good steering and very confident handling.? Like Morris Minor said, that car definitely influenced my thoughts towards Hyundai products, and I would consider buying one.? It's a sharp looking car too, IMO.

Ouch. I had a Sonata V6 as a rental for nearly a month. It was better than a Camry Solara I had the displeasure of having juat before that, but I would never buy or recomend one of those. Sure it offers plenty of features for the money, but it drives like a mid-90's Buick.

In this category I thin the standouts are the Mazda6i for enthusiasts, The Accord for more traditional buyers (though its on the expensive side IMHO), and the Fusion is somewhere in between.

Pontiac has a nice car in the G6, and they offer it with a respectible 4-banger, but they don't pair it with a manual or offer any kind of sport package. If they offered a "Sport Package" with the 6-speed manual and suspension from the GT sport, but left the 4-banger, I think they have a great car for the segment.

[gasoline]

Yeah. I think it stands to reason all this is true.

[omicron]

The US is getting our fleet hack family Commodore and calling it a 'premium RWD sedan'

[SJ_GTI]

The US is getting our fleet hack family Commodore and calling it a 'premium RWD sedan'

Well, premium is relative. It will go against cars like the Charger, 300C, etc...in other words it will sit above the FWD models in the car lineup. I assume the Commodore is more expensive than a Holden Vectra?

The Sigma I/II chassis from Cadillac is the true "premium" chassis, but it was too expensive for mainstream duty as a Pontiac or Buick.

[Vinsanity]

I'm rambling. But my point is, I agree, and think that manufacturers should stop catering to enthusaists rich bastards and the press and make their halo cars the cars people actually buy.

on-topic: I agree with the general idea, but personally, I would make my judgments based on the V6 model

[ifcar]

I'll agree that judging a mainstream automaker by its most mainstream product is reasonable, but those with V6s at $20,000 priced alongside competing I4s should also be considered.

[pommes-t]

The Passat 2.0T is too expensive to capture many buyers. A good $5000 too expensive. It goes for $30,000 here, around $40,000 for the 3.6 VR6.

I thought we were talking about base-equipped 4 cyl only...

The Passat starts at around 23k$ I thought...

[TheIntrepid]

I agree completely; your average company is sustained by its four-cylinder mid-rangers. Accord LX, Camry LE, Altima S, etcetera come to mind.

On the rental topic, we've been lucky that all the cars we've rented lately are top-of-the-line models. One that stood out was an 06 Impala LTZ. It drove much better than my mom's Allure but felt like much more of a boat.

[93JC]

I thought we were talking about base-equipped 4 cyl only...

The Passat starts at around 23k$ I thought...

In the States.

In Canada it's $29,970, which is ridiculously expensive for what it is. The 3.6 is $42,410, and the 3.6 with 4Motion is a whopping $45,310.

$45k. For a Passat. It's insane.


Even the Jetta 2.5 is $24,975. The Jetta 2.0T is $27,700, which is even crazier.

[ChrisV]

Hmmm. Porsche must not be doing to well here.
Will be more constructive later.

I was thinking the same thing. BMW and Mercedes are likewise hampered, though Mercedes does have some lower end 4 cyl models in teh US.

I wonder how well smaller companies fare in this, or do you lump them in with the companies that own them, so that Bentley is covered because you can compare VW/Seat/Skoda models?

[pommes-t]

In the States.

In Canada it's $29,970, which is ridiculously expensive for what it is. The 3.6 is $42,410, and the 3.6 with 4Motion is a whopping $45,310.

$45k. For a Passat. It's insane.


Even the Jetta 2.5 is $24,975. The Jetta 2.0T is $27,700, which is even crazier.

I thougt about US Dollars... Whatever...

I don't think the Passat is overpriced. It's such a big car that it competes with 5 series and E-class. And compared to those, it's pretty cheap actually. And the 3,2 DSG 4motion is about as expensive as a 525.

[TheIntrepid]

I don't think the Passat is overpriced. It's such a big car that it competes with 5 series and E-class. And compared to those, it's pretty cheap actually. And the 3,2 DSG 4motion is about as expensive as a 525.

I think it competes with the top-range Camry, Accord, Altima models. It's not that luxurious and in physical size it's the same, if not smaller. I like the new Passat a lot but it seems to be an overpriced Audi-wannabe.

[MX793]

I was thinking the same thing. BMW and Mercedes are likewise hampered, though Mercedes does have some lower end 4 cyl models in teh US.

I wonder how well smaller companies fare in this, or do you lump them in with the companies that own them, so that Bentley is covered because you can compare VW/Seat/Skoda models?

Given that this is in the Mainstreamers section, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this is in the context of mainstream brands, not niche market brands (like Porsche) or premium luxury marques (Mercedes, Jaguar, etc...).

[heelntoe]

though Mercedes does have some lower end 4 cyl models in teh US.

not any more IIRC. they replaced the 1.8l supercharged engine in the C230 with a 2.5l V6.

[ChrisV]

 

Given that this is in the Mainstreamers section, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this is in the context of mainstream brands, not niche market brands (like Porsche) or premium luxury marques (Mercedes, Jaguar, etc...).

Given the first sentence,  "I've been thinking recently that one can gauge an automobile manufacturer pretty well by its offerings in the mid-range" I'm going to take it at face value, and say that it was in the mainstream section not by name of manufacture but type of offering described, thus still including all manufacturers, regardless of whether they have an offering in this range or not. And that the measure of ANY manufacturer (regardless of name) can be taken from it's MAINSTREAM offerings. Thus begging the question, if they have no mainstream offerings, how do you take the measure of them?

My comment was indicating that it's better to judge a manufacturer not by one arbitrary segment across ALL manufacturers, but by how well they do their primary job, regardless of segment.

[ChrisV]

not any more IIRC. they replaced the 1.8l supercharged engine in the C230 with a 2.5l V6.

True, which makes my original thought even more relevant.

[TheIntrepid]

^:rolleyes:^

[Morris Minor]

on-topic: I agree with the general idea, but personally, I would make my judgments based on the V6 model

I disagree. If a company lacks the integrity to make a decent I4, they probably lack integrity across the board.

[93JC]

I don't think the Passat is overpriced. It's such a big car that it competes with 5 series and E-class. And compared to those, it's pretty cheap actually. And the 3,2 DSG 4motion is about as expensive as a 525.

Uhhh....

Passat 3.6 (we don't get the 3.2) 4Motion = $45,310
525i = $58,600
E280 4Matic = $65,500
530i = $67,800
E320 Bluetec = $67,800
530xi = $70,700
E350 4Matic = $74,500
550i = $78,600
E550 = $85,000


They're not even in the same league.


Passat competes with the rest of the more plebian, mundane mid-size cars sold here. Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Chevrolet Impala, Pontiac G6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Mazda 6, Nissan Altima, etc.

Malibu LS (145 hp 2.2 L I4) = $20,230
Malibu LT (145 hp 2.2 L I4) = $23,130
G6 (169 hp 2.4 L I4) = $23,230
Fusion SE I4 = $23,499
G6 SE (169 hp 2.4L I4) = $23,930
6 GS-I4 (156 hp 2.3 L I4) = $24,395
Altima 2.5S = $24,398
Accord DX-G (166 hp 2.4 L I4) = $24,800
Impala LS (214 hp 3.5 L V6) = $25,230
Fusion SEL I4 = $25,699
Camry LE (158 hp 2.4 L I4) = $25,800
Accord SE (166 hp 2.4 L I4) = $26,500
Impala LT (214 hp 3.5 L V6) = $26,530
Camry SE (158 hp 2.4 L I4) = $26,605
Fusion SE V6 = $26,899
6 GS-V6 (213 hp 3.0 L V6) = $27,095
Fusion SEL V6 = $28,699
Altima 3.5S = $28,798
Fusion SE V6 AWD = $28,999
G6 GT (224 hp 3.5 L V6) = $28,930
Camry LE V6 (268 hp 3.5 L V6) = $29,400
G6 GT (240 hp 3.9 L V6) = $29,825
Passat 2.0T = $29,970
Altima 3.5SE = $30,198
6 GT-I4 (156 hp 2.3 L I4) = $30,295
Malibu LTZ (217 hp 3.5 L V6) = $30,310
Accord EX-L (166 hp 2.4 L I4) = $30,500
Accord SE-V6 (244 hp 3.0 L V6) = $30,500
Impala LTZ (233 hp 3.9 L V6) = $30,550
Malibu SS (240 hp 3.9 L V6) = $30,570
Fusion SEL V6 AWD = $30,799
Camry Hybrid (187 hp 2.4 L I4 & electric motor) = $31,900
Camry SE V6 (268 hp 3.5 L V6) = $32,210
G6 GTP (252 hp 3.6 L V6) = $32,960
6 GT-V6 (213 hp 3.0 L V6) = $33,195
Accord EX-V6 (244 hp 3.0 L V6) = $34,200
Impala SS (303 hp 5.3 L V8) = $35,560
Accord EX-V6 Navi (244 hp 3.0 L V6) = $36,700
Camry XLE V6 (268 hp 3.5 L V6) = $37,425
Accord Hybrid (253 hp 3.0 L V6 & electric motor) = $38,090
Passat 3.6 = $42,410
Passat 3.6 4Motion = $45,310


Passat is probably the 'best' of this bunch, but surely you can see they have problems with their pricing...

[SVT666]

/\ /\ You have too much time on your hands. 

[93JC]

That was slowly compiled over the course of an hour-and-a-half, when I wasn't working on something pressing.