The Measure of a Car Company - its Four Cylinder Mid-Rangers

[ChrisV]

I disagree. If a company lacks the integrity to make a decent I4, they probably lack integrity across the board.

So Porsche lacks integrity. Riiight.

Sorry, I disagree with your premeise and your assesment.

Oh, and I loved Triumph, MG, and the like yet their 4 cyls were simple tractor motors. Saabs had integrity in the '60s and early '70s, but they didnt' even MAKE their own motors, using instead engines from Ford and Triumph. For somneone with the Morris Minor handle I'd think you would understand that more than anyone. How do you measure teh integrity of a company like Morgan, who use engines from other sources, and don't DO mainstream sedans?

The measure of a car company is how well it does it's PRIMARY job, not how well it does it's basic cars.

[93JC]

So Porsche lacks integrity.

Yes, exactly. They did back in the day of the 924, 944 and 968, but now Porsche has no integrity whatsoever!

[Vinsanity]

I disagree. If a company lacks the integrity to make a decent I4, they probably lack integrity across the board.

I dunno...I'm willing to bet that most people here would spring for the V6 model; on top of that, I see nearly as many V6 family sedans on the road as their 4-cyl counterparts.

besides, the only midsize 4-cylinder that's lacking in one way or another is the outgoing 2.2L Malibu. all others are in the 160-hp range, and all including the Malibu get at least 23/30 mpg. the 2008 Malibu will be getting the G6's base 2.4L motor with 164 hp.

4-cylinder motors for family cars are practically a commodity. they're offered mainly for non-enthusiast commuters who spend most of their time behind the wheel in traffic. V6 family cars are a more fitting representation of automotive engineering for the everyman. so unless you're shopping for a midsizer with 25+ city mpg, as far as I'm concerned, all 4-banger sedans are pretty much created equal

[93JC]

besides, the only midsize 4-cylinder that's lacking in one way or another is the outgoing 2.2L Malibu. all others are in the 160-hp range, and all including the Malibu get at least 23/30 mpg. the 2008 Malibu will be getting the G6's base 2.4L motor with 164 hp.

I was thinking about this earlier this morning, and you know what? I think the 2.2 Ecotec in the Malibu is the perfect base engine, and I'm surprised more people don't opt for it.

If anything, I think ideally the upcoming Malibu should keep the 2.2 as the base engine, offer the 2.4, offer the 2.8 V6 and top it off with the 3.6 V6.

So, say, LS gets the 2.2, LT the 2.4, LTZ the 2.8 and... I don't know, Z## (?) gets the 3.6. Something like that.

Most North American midsizers are stuck with two engines: a four and a V6. I wish they'd all pursue the 'European' route: half a dozen engines available.

[Vinsanity]

Passat is probably the 'best' of this bunch, ...

maybe that's because you left out the Maxima

[93JC]

Maxima?

Feeeeeeeert! Maxima is a big, fat, wallowing boat. Its only competition is the Grand Prix.

[SJ_GTI]

I was thinking about this earlier this morning, and you know what? I think the 2.2 Ecotec in the Malibu is the perfect base engine, and I'm surprised more people don't opt for it.

If anything, I think ideally the upcoming Malibu should keep the 2.2 as the base engine, offer the 2.4, offer the 2.8 V6 and top it off with the 3.6 V6.

So, say, LS gets the 2.2, LT the 2.4, LTZ the 2.8 and... I don't know, Z## (?) gets the 3.6. Something like that.

Most North American midsizers are stuck with two engines: a four and a V6. I wish they'd all pursue the 'European' route: half a dozen engines available.

I don't know if this is true, but I've heard that to sell a car in NA it is a relatively expensive process, and each model must be tested seperately.

From a regulatory standpoint, adding a transmission and/or engine options makes it a whole new car. This is why even companies that went through the development process of designing a multitude of engines/transmission/driven wheel combinations, they usually will only sell the most popular versions in the US.

[93JC]

Well, you have to, at the very least for EPA estimated fuel economy figures. But I doubt it's that much.

I think everyone copies Honda and Toyota, personally. It's really a hallmark of their sales strategy: offering a few packages that have been crafted to appeal to small subsets of consumers. Makes manufacturing cheaper and quicker: whether you want the four-cylinder with an automatic, satnav and without power seats and automatic climate control or not doesn't matter; this is what the company builds, this is what you get, because it's cheaper for the company to pump out cars with bundles of stuff rather than cater to one consumer's taste.

[SJ_GTI]

Well, you have to, at the very least for EPA estimated fuel economy figures. But I doubt it's that much.

I think everyone copies Honda and Toyota, personally. It's really a hallmark of their sales strategy: offering a few packages that have been crafted to appeal to small subsets of consumers. Makes manufacturing cheaper and quicker: whether you want the four-cylinder with an automatic, satnav and without power seats and automatic climate control or not doesn't matter; this is what the company builds, this is what you get, because it's cheaper for the company to pump out cars with bundles of stuff rather than cater to one consumer's taste.

I don't think either of us know for sure, but if there was no extra cost involved, why would VW only sell one variant of the Golf in the US? Or offer AWD? It would not add any manufacturing complexity as they already do these things for most other markets.

In Europe VW sells the R32 with 2 or 4 doors, manual or DSG. In North America they will only sell it with 2 doors and DSG. The explanation is that it was too costly to validate more than one version, so they picked the one that was likely to sell the most volume.

[pommes-t]

Uhhh....

Passat 3.6 (we don't get the 3.2) 4Motion = $45,310
525i = $58,600
E280 4Matic = $65,500
530i = $67,800
E320 Bluetec = $67,800
530xi = $70,700
E350 4Matic = $74,500
550i = $78,600
E550 = $85,000


They're not even in the same league.


Passat competes with the rest of the more plebian, mundane mid-size cars sold here. Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Chevrolet Impala, Pontiac G6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Mazda 6, Nissan Altima, etc.

Malibu LS (145 hp 2.2 L I4) = $20,230
Malibu LT (145 hp 2.2 L I4) = $23,130
G6 (169 hp 2.4 L I4) = $23,230
Fusion SE I4 = $23,499
G6 SE (169 hp 2.4L I4) = $23,930
6 GS-I4 (156 hp 2.3 L I4) = $24,395
Altima 2.5S = $24,398
Accord DX-G (166 hp 2.4 L I4) = $24,800
Impala LS (214 hp 3.5 L V6) = $25,230
Fusion SEL I4 = $25,699
Camry LE (158 hp 2.4 L I4) = $25,800
Accord SE (166 hp 2.4 L I4) = $26,500
Impala LT (214 hp 3.5 L V6) = $26,530
Camry SE (158 hp 2.4 L I4) = $26,605
Fusion SE V6 = $26,899
6 GS-V6 (213 hp 3.0 L V6) = $27,095
Fusion SEL V6 = $28,699
Altima 3.5S = $28,798
Fusion SE V6 AWD = $28,999
G6 GT (224 hp 3.5 L V6) = $28,930
Camry LE V6 (268 hp 3.5 L V6) = $29,400
G6 GT (240 hp 3.9 L V6) = $29,825Passat 2.0T = $29,970
Altima 3.5SE = $30,198
6 GT-I4 (156 hp 2.3 L I4) = $30,295
Malibu LTZ (217 hp 3.5 L V6) = $30,310
Accord EX-L (166 hp 2.4 L I4) = $30,500
Accord SE-V6 (244 hp 3.0 L V6) = $30,500
Impala LTZ (233 hp 3.9 L V6) = $30,550
Malibu SS (240 hp 3.9 L V6) = $30,570
Fusion SEL V6 AWD = $30,799
Camry Hybrid (187 hp 2.4 L I4 & electric motor) = $31,900
Camry SE V6 (268 hp 3.5 L V6) = $32,210
G6 GTP (252 hp 3.6 L V6) = $32,960
6 GT-V6 (213 hp 3.0 L V6) = $33,195
Accord EX-V6 (244 hp 3.0 L V6) = $34,200
Impala SS (303 hp 5.3 L V8) = $35,560
Accord EX-V6 Navi (244 hp 3.0 L V6) = $36,700
Camry XLE V6 (268 hp 3.5 L V6) = $37,425
Accord Hybrid (253 hp 3.0 L V6 & electric motor) = $38,090
Passat 3.6 = $42,410
Passat 3.6 4Motion = $45,310


Passat is probably the 'best' of this bunch, but surely you can see they have problems with their pricing...

The bold written cars are those we don't get. Yes, the 3.2 also.

Think what you want: Since the B3 the Passat has always be in between the size of classic (german/european) midsizers (3 series, C-class, Audi 80/A4) and upper midsize class (5series, E-class, Audi A6).

The new one is so big that there are only few cm missing. We don't get such cheap large cars as Chevrolets, Camrys or whatever. Here it competes with E-classes. Maybe not directly, because it's still between c- and e-class, but it does. In comparisons it competes with both. It's even larger than a V70 Volvo and clearly the better car.

It's priced as other premium carmaker's midsizer and (nearly) has the size of an upper midsize car. That means the price is a VERY good one! Even if you compare it with other midsizers.

[3.0L V6]

My measure of a car company: Does it deliver products that satisfy my wants and desires for transportation or entertainment?

[ifcar]

I thought we were talking about base-equipped 4 cyl only...

The Passat starts at around 23k$ I thought...

It does, but the competition is much less.

Using the TrueDelta price calculator, which comparably equips cars, the Passat 2.0T is $2,600 more than the Accord, $3,400 more than the Camry, $5,400 more than the Fusion, and $5,800 more than the Sonata.

[ifcar]

Maxima?

Feeeeeeeert! Maxima is a big, fat, wallowing boat. Its only competition is the Grand Prix.

It handles well for its size and price, which isn't saying much. It's better than the Grand Prix (though pricier) and I'd say it's better in almost every way than a V6 Chrysler LX car.

[93JC]

Well Koko, you say a lot of things. I... I'm just going to go ahead and dismiss your opinion.

[ifcar]

What do you think the V6 LXs are good at?

[Raza]

What do you think the V6 LXs are good at?

Awesometasticness.

[93JC]

Awesometasticness, and everything else.

What do you think is wrong with the LX V6s? The only difference between the V6s and V8s is the powertrain, so... you hate the Chrysler V6?

[ifcar]

No, I just think the V8 LX cars are stylish mediocrity powered by a terrific engine. And the V6 versions are just stylish mediocrity.

[93JC]

Well I don't think very much of your opinion on the subject so...

[ifcar]

So, what do you think is so impressive about the Chrysler LXs?

[mazda6er]

I'm stylish mediocrity.

[Vinsanity]

I wouldn't drive a V6 Chrysler LX simply because I wouldn't be able to live with myself for passing up the Hemi. sounds strange, but I'd be more content with a Maxima knowing that there's no other engine available

[nickdrinkwater]

I like the Passat a lot, but looking at what else you can get for the money in America, I can see why it gets slagged off a bit.

That doesn't make it a worse car, just means it has different competition.

Even in Europe, the Passat is hardly a bargain anyway.  It's always been a touch classier than the Mondeos and Vectras it competes with, which is reflected in its price.

I don't think anyone could seriously say it competes with the 5 Series and E-Class.

[93JC]

So, what do you think is so impressive about the Chrysler LXs?

Mediocrity in an appealing package.

Mediocre is pretty damned good these days, so I don't really give a damn. It handles reasonably well, has reasonably good power, is reasonably roomy, is comfortable: seems all good to me, wouldn't you say?

But I think I'd also be mad at myself for not getting a V8. One of my uncles has a 300 Limited, and several months later he told me his only regret was not ponying up for the Hemi.

[93JC]

I like the Passat a lot, but looking at what else you can get for the money in America, I can see why it gets slagged off a bit.

That doesn't make it a worse car, just means it has different competition.

Exactly the way I feel about it. The Passat is a damned good car, and of all the midsize sedans it competes with it's probably the best.

But it's priced in such a way that it makes it hard to justify buying one. Sure, it's nicer than the competition, but $5,000-$15,000 nicer, comparably equipped? Ha! No.

The same problem affects every other Volkswagen, which is probably why VW Canada kept the Mk IV Jetta and Golf around and started selling them at bargain basement ($15,000) prices.

[The Pirate]

I must confess that I really like the Chrysler LX cars.  Like 93JC, if I were to purchase one, it'd have to be the V8.

[93JC]

I must confess that I really like the Chrysler LX cars.  Like 93JC, if I were to purchase one, it'd have to be the V8.

Booya. I mean, what's not to like? Is it an amazing super sports sedan? No, but it wasn't designed to be one. It's a big, comfortable car that's reasonably nice to drive. Why would anyone hate that?

[ifcar]

Mediocrity in an appealing package.

Mediocre is pretty damned good these days, so I don't really give a damn. It handles reasonably well, has reasonably good power, is reasonably roomy, is comfortable: seems all good to me, wouldn't you say?

But I think I'd also be mad at myself for not getting a V8. One of my uncles has a 300 Limited, and several months later he told me his only regret was not ponying up for the Hemi.

It's certainly acceptable. But why settle for acceptable when you're spending that much money?

[93JC]

What is better?

[ifcar]

What do you think a V6 Charger does better than a Maxima?