Corvette ZO6 vs Porsche 997 GT3 RS

[r0tor]

hold on a sec, before jumping on the tire bandwagon...

The Z06 is on Goodyear Eagle F1 supercar tires (275 front / 325 rear) which is the best DOT legal tire Goodyear produces.  The Porsche is on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup which are a more aggressive compund but smaller in width (235 front / 305 rear)

this isn't a huge mismatch

[Lebowski]

hold on a sec, before jumping on the tire bandwagon...

The Z06 is on Goodyear Eagle F1 supercar tires (275 front / 325 rear) which is the best DOT legal tire Goodyear produces.? The Porsche is on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup which are a more aggressive compund but smaller in width (235 front / 305 rear)

this isn't a huge mismatch

Yes it is, the supercars runcraps aren't that great.  Runflats definately have some drawbacks.

[Raza]

Yes it is, the supercars runcraps aren't that great.  Runflats definately have some drawbacks.

The sidewalls are just too stiff.  Too stiff is no good.

[J86]

I'll take the Porsche.

Someone else is paying, right?

[SVT_Power]

I'll take the Porsche.

Someone else is paying, right?

[JYODER240]

I'll take the Porsche.

Someone else is paying, right?

ditto. But I think a regular GT3 would suffic.

[r0tor]

The sidewalls are just too stiff.? Too stiff is no good.

and your Boxster has rubber band profile tires on it because....?

[ChrisV]

hold on a sec, before jumping on the tire bandwagon...

The Z06 is on Goodyear Eagle F1 supercar tires (275 front / 325 rear) which is the best DOT legal tire Goodyear produces.  The Porsche is on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup which are a more aggressive compund but smaller in width (235 front / 305 rear)

this isn't a huge mismatch

Compound is everything. Trust me, from a DOT-tire perspective, a semi-slick compound will walk on all regular street tires by over 2 seconds on a 60 second lap. Even a bad semi slick compound. And Goodyears are not that good to start with.

[ChrisV]

I guess I am coufused.

You probably didn't read the original translation that Wimmer posted, which I did. The conclusion of the article was that the tires were not a factor: the Porsche is a precision instrument, and the Corvette a brutish car that's hard to drive fast. It glossed over the fact that the tires would cause the Corvette to be hard to drive fast, and MAKE the Porsche a precision instrument.

The new translation has more about the tires, but the overall tone is still that the Porsche is much more precise and easy to drive fast, while the Corvette's only saving grace is it's accelleration. So I say, the tires are teh reason. Tires are wear items and anyone going to the track like this in a Z06 will put on the same tires that the Porsche had.

[Nethead]

I see waht you're saying, but that's not how things work.? That's like saying, let's put the same size brakes on every car and test their braking abilities.? The cars are competitors and that's how they come from the factory.

HEMI666: As we've all come to expect from HemiDude, all his postings in this thread are thoughtful, informative, and incisive!  Great stuff, Hemi!  And thanks for establishing how long ago when probably history's most capable street car, the 959, was last available.  How can it have been so long?  Shit, the Nethead here is an effin' fossil!  But there it is...
In a similar vein, the Nethead here believes that a GT3 with its 3.6 engine upscaled to 7.0 liters would beat the Bug Veyron's 252 MPH production car speed record.  Naturally, cooling would have to be increased, fuel lines & fuel pumps would have to be enlarged, and probably the frame would have to be reinforced to say nothing of tire widths.  Everyone here understands that doubling the displacement in a vehicle's engine dictates a lot of mods to the vehicle's chassis and running gear if the same level of reliability, handling, and braking are to be maintained.  But I'm gonna go hotrodder cheap here and just drop in an upscaled engine, upscaled cooling, and upscaled fuel lines & fuel pumps--and wider rear tires if they'll fit (no runflats, thank you).  I'd guesstimate a sustainable top speed in the 260s, but 270s might happen if wider tires will fit.  It is amazing how easy it would be for Porsche to introduce the fastest production car in the world!  Now, Bug is talking the talk about a 1232 HP version of the Veyron, which they claim will sustain 272 MPH (it won't, but it should be into the 260s unless the aerodynamics aren't up to the task)!  That's assuming Bug will still be in existence, of course, which ain't necessarily a given in this equation.  Without Porsche stepping up to the challenge, the Veyron's current and possibly future production car speed records may stand for a long, long time...
But I digress...the comparo shows that the Porsche comes with everything it should have, plus a sharp-looking interior diminished by riceboyracer external gaudiness.  It also shows that the Z06 still comes lacking some fundamental items--it's hard to get more fundamental than tires equal to the vehicle's performance capabilities--which makes you have to ask how much does a Z06 properly equipped for its near-200 MPH performance really cost?  The Porsche costs more, but it has everything needed for its performance and a great interior to boot.  If you want equipment parity, then ya gotta spend a bundle on the Z06's interior as well.  The Z06 ain't embarrassed by a JC Whitney-ish exterior, which is more than can be said for the other car in this comparo (hint: from Stuttgart).   Remember the delicious great looks of the first 911 Turbo?  Like the Mustang did, Porsche needs to get back to its roots...

[Nethead]

Question:? If you remove all taxes--sales, luxury, whatever--and you remove all shipping costs, and you remove any any import duties (if such duties are levied on vehicles), what would then be the selling price of a Z06 and a Porsche GT3?? This is more the true "price" of the car, since that excludes what the governments punish you with for buying the vehicle(s) of your choice--especially if your choice wasn't manufactured here.? Has anyone got figures on this??
I know that currency fluctuations (How often does the Deutschmark depreciate against the dollar, if that has ever happened?) can change the "price" of a car instantly (when I arrived in what was then West Germany in the Army in the early 'Seventies, the exchange rate was 3 Deutschmarks, 62 pfennigs per 1 US dollar, and that was dropping almost monthly by the time my 20 months in West Germany were up), meaning that the "price" of a Porsche GT3 is probably rising incrementally all the time, just as the "price" of a Z06 for sale in Germany would probably be dropping incrementally all the time.
I bring this up because of the numerous postings about the purchase price advantage that the Z06 has over the Porsche GT3--not all of this has to do with the true price of a Porsche or with the true price of a Z06.? And of course if the Z06 offered the tires found on a Porsche GT3 and the excellent interior in a Porsche GT3, it would retail for more (maybe substantially more) than the Z06 as tested here.

[SVT666]

Well, looks like you're guilty of the O (read: "oh") sin as well.

It's "ZO6" for the entire time I'm on the Internets...

You're right.

[SVT666]

I know that currency fluctuations (How often does the Deutschmark depreciate against the dollar...

Deutschmark doesn't exist anymore.  It's the Euro.

[SaltyDog]

One of the most important things that seems to be glossed over was the difference in tires. Street tires are NOT race tires, and the way a car responds on them is VASTLY different even with the exactly same car/suspension/brakes. Had the Corvette had street legal race tires like the Porsche, there would not have been the issues with it being hard to control, nor would there have been braking differences, and the supposed advantages of the Porsche would have gone away. All for a few hundred bucks in tires.

Half a second difference in lap times? Even DOT slalom or road race tires with tread are good for a couple seconds just from lateral grip. The Porsche had them, the Corvette did not. Had the Corvette been equipped with similar tires, it would have had a second and a half advantage on the track or even more with the additional control and ability to use the power.

I know, coulda, woulda, shoulda. I just get tired of this sort of easy to assess and fix issue causing the expensive Eurocar to come ou ton top by a fraction, and then let the major equipment difference get glossed over in the manner of the article.

Ding, ding, ding!  They can't expect to compare the cars on an equal footing using crappy stock runflats.   Tires make all the difference in handling and it's puzzling that they wouldn't put a good set on first. 

[Cobra93]

Deutschmark doesn't exist anymore.  It's the Euro.

Don't you mean the eurZ06? 

[r0tor]

Ding, ding, ding!? They can't expect to compare the cars on an equal footing using crappy stock runflats.? ?Tires make all the difference in handling and it's puzzling that they wouldn't put a good set on first.?

Because the RS is designed as a racecar thats legal for the street and the Z06 is designed as a street car that performs well on a race track?? Because GM is in contract with Goodyear as their tire supplier and they don't make any DOT approved tires better then whats on there now?  How about because 95% of Z06 owners would be pissed if their tires wore out every 5,000 miles?

[SaltyDog]

Because the RS is designed as a racecar thats legal for the street and the Z06 is designed as a street car that performs well on a race track?  Because GM is in contract with Goodyear as their tire supplier and they don't make any DOT approved tires better then whats on there now?

I'm not bitching at GM for their tire choice, but saying the Vette needs proper tires to be reviewed on a track.  Everything they said about it's handling was followed by saying the tires suck.

[SVT666]

Why are so many people suggesting that reviewers put the same tires on both cars to make testing fair?  If you go down to your local Chevy dealer and buy a Zed-OH-6, what tires will be equipped with the car?  Right, the ones that were on the car in this test.  Why would they test the car with different tires then?  That would be like putting the same brakes on both cars, or the same seats, or, or, or... 

[SaltyDog]

Why are so many people suggesting that reviewers put the same tires on both cars to make testing fair?  If you go down to your local Chevy dealer and buy a Zed-OH-6, what tires will be equipped with the car?  Right, the ones that were on the car in this test.  Why would they test the car with different tires then?  That would be like putting the same brakes on both cars, or the same seats, or, or, or... 

Tires are car parts that are constantly changed and aren't brand or model specific.  Brakes, seats, and the like are, so it's not really a fair comparison.

[ChrisV]

But I digress...the comparo shows that the Porsche comes with everything it should have, plus a sharp-looking interior diminished by riceboyracer external gaudiness.  It also shows that the Z06 still comes lacking some fundamental items--it's hard to get more fundamental than tires equal to the vehicle's performance capabilities--which makes you have to ask how much does a Z06 properly equipped for its near-200 MPH performance really cost? 

Add teh grand or so for tires and youre' still looking at a significant savings. And as I said, ANYONE putting the Corvette on a track like in this test would put the DOT Semi-slicks on it. (or even actual slicks). When driven on the street however, where these cars spend 90% of their time, the stock tires will last an order of magnitude longer on the Corvette, and the Porsche will be at a disadvantage having to not only change tires more often, but be much more careful about driving in the rain. Unless the owner reverts to tires liek the Corvettes, in which case the more expensive Porsche will also negate any advantage it had.

[SVT666]

Tires are car parts that are constantly changed and aren't brand or model specific.? Brakes, seats, and the like are, so it's not really a fair comparison.

People usually don't buy new tires until the O.E. tires have worn out, and most people just buy the same tires again.  Yes, lots of people buy different tires after the originals wear out (I'm one of them), but you can do the same with brakes, shocks, springs, seats, exhaust systems, shifters, etc. etc..  I replaced all of those on my Mustang.  Each one made a big difference in how the car performed.  Magazines do the right thing and test the car with original equipment from the manufacturer.  This is how the car performs when new.  It can only get better from that point.

[SaltyDog]

People usually don't buy new tires until the O.E. tires have worn out, and most people just buy the same tires again.  Yes, lots of people buy different tires after the originals wear out (I'm one of them), but you can do the same with brakes, shocks, springs, seats, exhaust systems, shifters, etc. etc..  I replaced all of those on my Mustang.  Each one made a big difference in how the car performed.  Magazines do the right thing and test the car with original equipment from the manufacturer.  This is how the car performs when new.  It can only get better from that point.

I can understand what you're saying if the car being reviewed is something mainstream, but we're talking about an exotic car capable of extraordinary performance that's held back by something as simple as bad tires. 

[ChrisV]

People usually don't buy new tires until the O.E. tires have worn out, and most people just buy the same tires again.  Yes, lots of people buy different tires after the originals wear out (I'm one of them), but you can do the same with brakes, shocks, springs, seats, exhaust systems, shifters, etc. etc..  I replaced all of those on my Mustang.  Each one made a big difference in how the car performed.  Magazines do the right thing and test the car with original equipment from the manufacturer.  This is how the car performs when new.  It can only get better from that point.

The point is, if you buy a Z06 and go to the track, you WILL change the tires to the type that the Porsche has. The test was originally worded in such a manner as to belittle the Corvette's inability to be driven like it's the fault of the car as a whole, when the real difference was in those 4 patches of rubber that are wear items.

This one mentions tires more, but I can guarantee you that the audience the article was aimed at will not see that it's the tires that are the difference.

[Lebowski]

People usually don't buy new tires until the O.E. tires have worn out, and most people just buy the same tires again.?

Interesting how you form your conclusion based on what "most" people do ...

Dude, most people don't buy $70k+ sports cars.  And most people will never drive their car on a track.  I think Joe Average's tiring buying habits aren't all that relevant to a test that involves driving two supercars around a race track.

I agree that if C&D is testing the Camry vs. the Accord head to head, just leave the stock tires on.  But when testing two $70k+ performance cars, and the test is conducted not on the streets but on a track, it makes more sense to me to put comparable tires on the cars.

[Nethead]

ChrisV: Well, which is it ChrisDude? 
Is the Z06 providing you with great tires whereas the Porsche is lavishing fabulous tires on you; or is it that the Porsche is providing you with tires suited to their car's performance and Chevy is cheap-assing you on the Z06?? 
If the first statement is true, then what's your complaint? 
If the second statement is true, why are you posting umpty dozen arguments defending the Z06?  After all, it's not Porsche's fault that the Z06 runs out of tire before it runs out of oomph, huh? 
Are Porsche's engineers that much smarter than Chevrolet's engineers that they can figure out what tires a really fast car needs but Chevrolet's can't? 
Or is it that Chevy accountants said "No Way" to the quality (and the cost) of tires sufficient to perform as well as the tires that the Porsche accountants said were a  completely justifiable expense for a car with their customer's lives literally riding on them?
I tend to think it's the engineers at fault since the accountants could just say "Leave the tires as is, but make those tires that come on Porsche GT3s an extra cost option."  What say you?

[Nethead]

Deutschmark doesn't exist anymore.? It's the Euro.

HEMI666:  Who needs a spellchecker when we've got HEMI666 keeping us on the straight and narrow?!?!  Yep, it's Euros now--unfortunately for the stronger economies of Europe...
But this may have the backdoor benefit of stabilizing the price of a Porsche GT3, since Euros don't appreciate like Deutschmarks did back in the day.  Near the time of the switch to Euros, I remember running across an article which mentioned that a dollar converted to about 1 Deutschmark, 50 pfennings--a far cry from the 3.62 rate when I arrived in Germany in the early 'Seventies!  In other words, any Porsche bought with dollars would have more than doubled in price from currency revaluations alone!

[Lebowski]

ChrisV: Well, which is it ChrisDude??
Is the Z06 providing you with great tires whereas the Porsche is lavishing fabulous tires on you; or is it that the Porsche is providing you with tires suited to their car's performance and Chevy is cheap-assing you on the Z06???
If the first statement is true, then what's your complaint??
If the second statement is true, why are you posting umpty dozen arguments defending the Z06?? After all, it's not Porsche's fault that the Z06 runs out of tire before it runs out of oomph, huh??
Are Porsche's engineers that much smarter than Chevrolet's engineers that they can figure out what tires a really fast car needs but Chevrolet's can't??
Or is it that Chevy accountants said "No Way" to the quality (and the cost) of tires sufficient to perform as well as the tires that the Porsche accountants said were a? completely justifiable expense for a car with their customer's lives literally riding on them?
I tend to think it's the engineers at fault since the accountants could just say "Leave the tires as is, but make those tires that come on Porsche GT3s an extra cost option."? What say you?

Wow, talk about missing the mark completely.  Where to begin ...


First, go to tirerack.com and price a set of GY Eagle F1 Supercar EMTs in ZO6 sizes and see if that impacts your "GM is cheap-assing you" theory.  They are expensive tires.  The tires do get a lot of complaints, but being cheap isn't one of them.

This is not a case of either GM cheaping out, or of one car having good tires and the other fabulous tires - we're talking about tires with totally different intended purposes.  The GT3 is the more raw version of the 911, and the RS is the more raw version of the GT3.  The GT3 RS is an extremely low volume production car with a very, very targeted (and very much enthusiast minded) market.  The ZO6 is a relatively high volume (for a $70k sports car anyway) car with a much more mainstream market.  If I could afford one, I'd have no qualms using a ZO6 as my daily driver, and I wouldn't say the same about the RS. 

Compare a ZO6 and a plain jane 911 Carrera S on a track and I doubt you'll hear anybody complaining about an unfair tire comparison.  Both of those cars can be used as daily drivers, both have tires that will last more than 5,000 miles and both have tires that won't get you killed in the rain.  The GT3 RS simply isn't meant to be a daily driver, and if someone were seriously cross shopping a GT3 RS and a ZO6 with the intention of tracking either, I'd suspect they'd be more than willing to invest in a new set of tires if they opt for the ZO6.

[SVT666]

The point is, if you buy a Z06 and go to the track, you WILL change the tires to the type that the Porsche has. The test was originally worded in such a manner as to belittle the Corvette's inability to be driven like it's the fault of the car as a whole, when the real difference was in those 4 patches of rubber that are wear items.

This one mentions tires more, but I can guarantee you that the audience the article was aimed at will not see that it's the tires that are the difference.

I agree with you Chris.  It's the same thing that Top Gear does when they test American cars.  Make sure that there is every reason possible to pick the European car over the American car.  However, I believe that if you are testing cars in stock form, then they should stay that way.  This test in particular, because it was a track test, might have been one of those rare occasions when I would agree that maybe different tires should have been used, but in general stock tires whould always be used.

[r0tor]

what are all these rain comments about regarding the RS's tires?  They are a dual compound with the outer half devoted to dry performance and the inner half devoted to wet performance. 

People are acting like they are racing slicks, and they are not.

[Nethead]

Wow, talk about missing the mark completely.? Where to begin ...


First, go to tirerack.com and price a set of GY Eagle F1 Supercar EMTs in ZO6 sizes and see if that impacts your "GM is cheap-assing you" theory.? They are expensive tires.? The tires do get a lot of complaints, but being cheap isn't one of them.

This is not a case of either GM cheaping out, or of one car having good tires and the other fabulous tires - we're talking about tires with totally different intended purposes.? The GT3 is the more raw version of the 911, and the RS is the more raw version of the GT3.? The GT3 RS is an extremely low volume production car with a very, very targeted (and very much enthusiast minded) market.? The ZO6 is a relatively high volume (for a $70k sports car anyway) car with a much more mainstream market.? If I could afford one, I'd have no qualms using a ZO6 as my daily driver, and I wouldn't say the same about the RS.?

Compare a ZO6 and a plain jane 911 Carrera S on a track and I doubt you'll hear anybody complaining about an unfair tire comparison.? Both of those cars can be used as daily drivers, both have tires that will last more than 5,000 miles and both have tires that won't get you killed in the rain.? The GT3 RS simply isn't meant to be a daily driver, and if someone were seriously cross shopping a GT3 RS and a ZO6 with the intention of tracking either, I'd suspect they'd be more than willing to invest in a new set of tires if they opt for the ZO6.

Lebowski:  Great response, LebDude!  I see that you don't miss the point, whereas ChrisV is challenged in that respect!  The short answer is that Porsche lavishes fabulous tires on the GT3, whereas the Z06 has merely great tires.  Yes, the Porsche's tires are expensive.  Yes, they may require delicate driving in slippery road conditions.  Yes, they are better tires than those on the Z06, at least when road conditions aren't slippery.  Porsche reasonably assumes that when you buy a GT3, you have paid the extra bucks to have a car with a raised level of capability, and that you will sometimes wring out every ounce (or gram, perhaps) of that raised level of capability.  They also assume--reasonably or not--that when you buy a GT3 that you know enough about the hazards of slippery road conditions that you will match your driving to the conditions, or that you'll swap tires to those more suitable to how you intend to drive in those conditions.  Being the price that a GT3 is, a GT3 owner is expected to have the bucks and the knowledge to have sets of tires sufficient for the driving intended on the conditions encountered--or the brains to adjust the driving to stay within the limits of the tires in less than optimal conditions for the width, tread pattern, compound, and inflation pressure of the tires currently on the car. 
With the Z06 able to attain 197-198 MPH, there should be tires on the car that are as good as the tires on the GT3--even if the price has to increase significantly to see that they are.  At the very least they should be optional.  Unless Chevy knows the owners won't ever approach the 180s, much less the 190s.  Otherwise...