Corvette ZO6 vs Porsche 997 GT3 RS

[SJ_GTI]

So the piece of plastic American junk (with a tractor engine and trail-wagon suspension) loses to the pure-bred German racing machine?

No surprise there.

[565]

Lebowski:? Great response, LebDude!? I see that you don't miss the point, whereas ChrisV is challenged in that respect!? The short answer is that Porsche lavishes fabulous tires on the GT3, whereas the Z06 has merely great tires.? Yes, the Porsche's tires are expensive.? Yes, they may require delicate driving in slippery road conditions.? Yes, they are better tires than those on the Z06, at least when road conditions aren't slippery.? Porsche reasonably assumes that when you buy a GT3, you have paid the extra bucks to have a car with a raised level of capability, and that you will sometimes wring out every ounce (or gram, perhaps) of that raised level of capability.? They also assume--reasonably or not--that when you buy a GT3 that you know enough about the hazards of slippery road conditions that you will match your driving to the conditions, or that you'll swap tires to those more suitable to how you intend to drive in those conditions.? Being the price that a GT3 is, a GT3 owner is expected to have the bucks and the knowledge to have sets of tires sufficient for the driving intended on the conditions encountered--or the brains to adjust the driving to stay within the limits of the tires in less than optimal conditions for the width, tread pattern, compound, and inflation pressure of the tires currently on the car.?
With the Z06 able to attain 197-198 MPH, there should be tires on the car that are as good as the tires on the GT3--even if the price has to increase significantly to see that they are.? At the very least they should be optional.? Unless Chevy knows the owners won't ever approach the 180s, much less the 190s.? Otherwise...

Actually Goodyear Eagle Supercars blow in the rain too.  They are also an asymetric tread with 1/2 for dry and 1/2 for wet. The real difference is in the stiffness of the GY EMT technology, and the harder compound that gives the SC's a more realistic wear time.

Overall non EMT SC tires (like the ones that came on my C5z06) are not quite as good as Michellin Pilot Sport 2 sport tires.  Michelin PS2's are a popular (though expensive) upgrade for many Z06 owners. The Michellin sport cups that come on the RS are definitely a few steps above that.  Add in the EMT side walls, and the C6z06 suffers a bit more.  In fact, despite a much bigger contact patch all around, the C6 z06 doesn't really pull anymore lateral G's than it's predecessor.

I suppose that GM decided to switch to EMT for the Z06 instead of the portable inflator and leak repair kit due to safety concerns.  I find this a bit conservative considering family oriented offerings like the RX8 have the inflator kit option. 

I suppose that everyone's point is that the newer Z06's really haven't ever been a no compromise race ready car.  It's always tried to straddle a good compromise between daily driver capability and on track fun.  I mean I remember R&T had a comprision between the C5 Z06, M3, 911 , and 350z and the Z06 had the most comfortable ride.  I found this hard to believe at first, but when I test drove the Z06 in comparision to the 350z, EVO, STI, s2000, and Rx8, only the Rx8 had a more supple ride.  The new C6 z06 continues along the same trend.  The Z06 is filled with features that make it more streetable, EMT tires, Butterfly valves to suppress noise levels,  long crusing 6th gear that's useless for performance, and a livable suspension (even compared to less hardcore models).

[Lebowski]

Lebowski:? Great response, LebDude!? I see that you don't miss the point, whereas ChrisV is challenged in that respect!? The short answer is that Porsche lavishes fabulous tires on the GT3, whereas the Z06 has merely great tires.? Yes, the Porsche's tires are expensive.? Yes, they may require delicate driving in slippery road conditions.? Yes, they are better tires than those on the Z06, at least when road conditions aren't slippery.? Porsche reasonably assumes that when you buy a GT3, you have paid the extra bucks to have a car with a raised level of capability, and that you will sometimes wring out every ounce (or gram, perhaps) of that raised level of capability.? They also assume--reasonably or not--that when you buy a GT3 that you know enough about the hazards of slippery road conditions that you will match your driving to the conditions, or that you'll swap tires to those more suitable to how you intend to drive in those conditions.? Being the price that a GT3 is, a GT3 owner is expected to have the bucks and the knowledge to have sets of tires sufficient for the driving intended on the conditions encountered--or the brains to adjust the driving to stay within the limits of the tires in less than optimal conditions for the width, tread pattern, compound, and inflation pressure of the tires currently on the car.?
With the Z06 able to attain 197-198 MPH, there should be tires on the car that are as good as the tires on the GT3--even if the price has to increase significantly to see that they are.? At the very least they should be optional.? Unless Chevy knows the owners won't ever approach the 180s, much less the 190s.? Otherwise...

What does top speed have to do with it (I'll tell you what: nothing).  As long as the tire is rated up to that speed, the top speed of the car has nothing to do with whether it should use a street versus racing tire.

Why do you say the GT3 owner is expected to have the "bucks" to have the proper tires, yet the ZO6 owner doesn't have the bucks to buy a proper set of track tires if he chooses to track it?

I still say you miss the point - it's not a great tire vs. good tire dilemna, it's an issue of the car being able to be used as a daily driver versus a 2nd or 3rd car.  Porsche makes about 6 billion incarnations of the 911, and the GT3 RS is the most trackable and least intended for a daily driver out of them all.  The corvette on the other hand is available in only 3 forms - coupe, vert, or ZO6.  Given that, they have to make the car suitable for your typical sports car buyer as opposed to the small minority of drivers that will ever track the car.

I do agree with you though that GM should offer a track tire on the ZO6 as an option.

And 565 you are correct, the supercars aren't great in the rain.  I was assuming the GT3 RS tires were even worse, but maybe that's wrong (still, I hardly think you can call the GT3s tires ideal for a daily driver).

[rohan]

When testing cars with $30k+ difference in price range, why not spend the few grand to equip the cheaper car with comprable tires?

A better comparison would be putting the Vette tires on the Porsche and seeing what it did- why it always gotta be move up to the frikin Euro-trashers?  Make them come down to our level for once!

[Pancor]

GT3 tires:





Z06 tires:






I'm not bitching about the car comparison, but its true these two tires are in totally different classes.   The Pilot Sport cup is at least one level above most manufacturers "Max performance" category, and kinda bridges a gap between that and DOT approved competition tires.   Even the Eagle F1 GS-D3 would have fared better than those shitty Supercars. 

[r0tor]

why not bitch at GM for not making a track ready Z06 (or even giving you the option) instead of the reviewers for not trying to make it track ready like the GT3 RS?   

[SaltyDog]

I'd rather bitch at the reviewers for thinking this review is worth anything w/o properly tire-ing the Vette.

[ro51092]

I'd rather bitch at the reviewers for thinking this review is worth anything w/o properly tire-ing the Vette.

yup.

[Nethead]

Lebowski: LebDude, think about your quotes here:
"Why do you say the GT3 owner is expected to have the "bucks" to have the proper tires, yet the ZO6 owner doesn't have the bucks to buy a proper set of track tires if he chooses to track it?
I still say you miss the point - it's not a great tire vs. good tire dilemna, it's an issue of the car being able to be used as a daily driver versus a 2nd or 3rd car.? Porsche makes about 6 billion incarnations of the 911, and the GT3 RS is the most trackable and least intended for a daily driver out of them all.? The corvette on the other hand is available in only 3 forms - coupe, vert, or ZO6."
The GT3, as you have pointed out, "...is the most trackable and least intended for a daily driver out of them all."? That's why Porsche expects the purchasers of this "most trackable" incarnation of the 911 to have sets of tires suitable for the conditions to be encountered!? Any questions?
Now, as you have also pointed out, "...the Corvette on the other hand is available in only 3 forms - coupe, vert, or Z06."? Now, LebDude, you help us out here:? Which of these "3 forms" of the Corvette is the most trackable and least intended for a daily driver?? Is it the coupe?? Is is the vert?? Is it the Z06?? I'll bet you guessed correctly!!? That's why they tested the Z06 against the GT3...Would you have preferred that they tested the coupe against the GT3?? Would you have preferred that they tested the vert against the GT3?? I mean, shit, they paired a Z06 with a 7.0 liter engine against a Porsche with a 3.6!!!? No wonder the Z06 left the Porsche in its dust---er, wait a minute--that's actually not what happened, was it??? Or did I not understand the results...
And I repeat, whose fault is it that the Z06 doesn't have tires as capable as those on the GT3--Porsche's or Chevrolet's??? Whose fault is it that tires as good as those on the GT3 aren't even available as options on the Z06--Porsche's or Chevrolet's??? The same can be said for the interiors, of course, but neither car is bought for their respective interiors so that's a non-issue, IMO.?
Basically, the Z06 costs less--but you get less.? The GT3 costs more, but you don't need to take it to a tire dealer to buy better tires (there may not BE better tires for the GT3's weight and performance characteristics since it can lap as fast as cars whose engines are twice the displacement with the tires that come on the car) and then take it to a custom upholstery shop to get a great interior.
Different strokes for different folks...

[TheIntrepid]

I'd still take the GT3. There's just something about saying you drive a Porsche over a Chevy.

[SaltyDog]

I'd still take the GT3. There's just something about saying you drive a Porsche over a Chevy.

Dude, I keep reading stupid comments coming from you. 

[Lebowski]

Lebowski: LebDude, think about your quotes here:
"Why do you say the GT3 owner is expected to have the "bucks" to have the proper tires, yet the ZO6 owner doesn't have the bucks to buy a proper set of track tires if he chooses to track it?
I still say you miss the point - it's not a great tire vs. good tire dilemna, it's an issue of the car being able to be used as a daily driver versus a 2nd or 3rd car.? Porsche makes about 6 billion incarnations of the 911, and the GT3 RS is the most trackable and least intended for a daily driver out of them all.? The corvette on the other hand is available in only 3 forms - coupe, vert, or ZO6."
The GT3, as you have pointed out, "...is the most trackable and least intended for a daily driver out of them all."? That's why Porsche expects the purchasers of this "most trackable" incarnation of the 911 to have sets of tires suitable for the conditions to be encountered!? Any questions?
Now, as you have also pointed out, "...the Corvette on the other hand is available in only 3 forms - coupe, vert, or Z06."? Now, LebDude, you help us out here:? Which of these "3 forms" of the Corvette is the most trackable and least intended for a daily driver?? Is it the coupe?? Is is the vert?? Is it the Z06?? I'll bet you guessed correctly!!? That's why they tested the Z06 against the GT3...Would you have preferred that they tested the coupe against the GT3?? Would you have preferred that they tested the vert against the GT3?? I mean, shit, they paired a Z06 with a 7.0 liter engine against a Porsche with a 3.6!!!? No wonder the Z06 left the Porsche in its dust---er, wait a minute--that's actually not what happened, was it??? Or did I not understand the results...
And I repeat, whose fault is it that the Z06 doesn't have tires as capable as those on the GT3--Porsche's or Chevrolet's??? Whose fault is it that tires as good as those on the GT3 aren't even available as options on the Z06--Porsche's or Chevrolet's??? The same can be said for the interiors, of course, but neither car is bought for their respective interiors so that's a non-issue, IMO.?
Basically, the Z06 costs less--but you get less.? The GT3 costs more, but you don't need to take it to a tire dealer to buy better tires (there may not BE better tires for the GT3's weight and performance characteristics since it can lap as fast as cars whose engines are twice the displacement with the tires that come on the car) and then take it to a custom upholstery shop to get a great interior.
Different strokes for different folks...

Use the [enter] key.? Break things up into paragraphs.?

Your displacement argument is stupid.  What's the point?  7.0L vs. 3.6?  Who cares - if you can get me 500hp in a $70k that weighs in at ~3100 lbs, I don't care how you do it.  What exactly is the downside of using a 7.0l engine if they can do so without making the car too heavy.

And yeah, as I said the corvette is available in 3 forms, the porsche is in 8 billion.  That's one of the reasons they're able to sell it at such a low price.  Now, how many poeple track their cars?  I don't care if you're talking abou the corvette, or the 911 (in general, I'm talking all 911s), I'm sure the number is very small. 

Here's the point:  If you're chevy, why on earth would you make the ZO6 come standard with track tires that 97% of all buyers will immediately replace with street tires, when you could instead make it come with street tires that 3% of buyers will replace with track tires?  For porsche, it's totally different - they have the carrera, carrera S, carrera 4, carrera 4s, turbo, gt3, and RS, they can make one of those models come with tires that suck for use on a daily driver.

Answer this: If Chevy is doing something wrong by offering the ZO6 with Street tires, then why doesn't the all knowing Porsche make the GT3 RS' tires standard on the 911 turbo? 

But please, before you answer, practice for awhile on that whole paragraph thing.

[omicron]

Use the [enter] key. Break things up into paragraphs. When you do that I'll go back and read your post.

[gasoline]

Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. It's Z-zero-6, not Z-oh-6. Zero. Not the letter "O."

And Nethead, I'm going to have to agree with Hemi about all of the "if Porsche built a 7.0L engine to compete with the LS7 it would be so much better" comments. Until they do, all you're doing is speculating, which, for all intents and purposes, is meaningless. Your post vaguely reminds me of the visit I paid to a Porsche enthusiast website a while ago, which was full of a bunch of condescending elitists who looked down on the Corvette for being "crude." If all the Corvette needed was a better set of tires to beat the Porsche around a track, I suppose all of that "fancier" technology was being put to good use, eh? I'm not trying to be a total prick here, but as most of you well know, I love the Corvette.

Coincidentally, VetteZ06 here would take the Corvette.

I have always wanted a Corvette for two reasons:

1. Its looks.

2. The fact that people can be snobbish about them.
I am one person that doesn't like to do what everybody else is doing. I'd buy one just to be "subversive".

[VetteZ06]

I mean, shit, they paired a Z06 with a 7.0 liter engine against a Porsche with a 3.6!!!? No wonder the Z06 left the Porsche in its dust---er, wait a minute--that's actually not what happened, was it??? Or did I not understand the results...

Still beating that dead horse, I see? I like your tactic - say it as many times as possible with the hope that it will become increasingly more relevant/meaningful every time you say it. We'll see how that works.

Different strokes for different folks...

How very insincere of you.

[GoCougs]

One can surely bet that manufacturers used tire selection as a critical component of suspension design and tuning for vehicles of this ilk.

The 911 needs its engine as small as possible owing to its rear-engined position, so I don't think 7L would work. Just continue to design it to move more air via more valves and revs. Much more scalable than big jumps in engine displacement.

[r0tor]

one would think the GT3 engine size is engineered around the GT class road racing rules

[Nethead]

VetteZ06 & Lebowski:  ChrisV would have us believe that the low 400 HP Porsche GT3 beat the low 500 HP Corvette Z06 strictly because of its tires.  I'm sure neither of you are that brand blind...right?  There are tires and there are tires but I've never seen a set that's worth 100 horsepower on cars that have very high performance tires to begin with.  And neither have you or anyone else.  I'm confident enough in the GT3's ability to predict that if you put the Z06's tires on wheels that'll bolt up to the GT3, that the GT3 will still be as quick around the track as the Z06.  It might be a little quicker around the track than the Z06 even with the Z06's tires.  This will be hard to prove, of course.  But equally hard to disprove, huh?
Did this article give the drive away price of the GT3 and the Z06 in Germany, where the testing took place?  After all, some in this topic talk about all the money you'd save by buying the Z06--but that's if you buy it here.  It was a German mag testing in Germany, and they may have picked the GT3 and the Z06 because of the near parity in prices due to import tariffs applying to the Z06 that would not apply to the domestic (for them) GT3.  For Germans, there may be no savings that could be put towards a set of the Porsche's tires in sizes that fit the Z06's wheels. 
But what we have here are too few facts:  How much was the Z06 and how much was the GT3--and I mean the "drive away" retail price in Germany, not the prices of the two cars in countries where this test did not occur?  The facts we do have are that with the best tires available on the Z06 (and aren't these the only tires available on the Z06?) and perhaps the best tires Porsche makes available on the GT3, there was near parity in performance around the track where the test occurred, with the GT3 pulling a slightly quicker time in its fastest lap versus the fastest lap of the Z06.  The Z06's extra roughly 100 HP pulled away on the straights, but the Porsche caught right back up in the corners. 
Is anyone reading this shocked by this??????  If yes, why??????

[ChrisV]

The 911 needs its engine as small as possible owing to its rear-engined position, so I don't think 7L would work. Just continue to design it to move more air via more valves and revs. Much more scalable than big jumps in engine displacement.

the 911's engine weighs as much as the Corvette's, as is realized by those that do the LSx conversion to 911s.

[ChrisV]

VetteZ06 & Lebowski:  ChrisV would have us believe that the low 400 HP Porsche GT3 beat the low 500 HP Corvette Z06 strictly because of its tires.  I'm sure neither of you are that brand blind...right?

Caling me BRAND BLIND? I'm not even a Chevy fan. I'm an Ex PCA member ,and have owned 3 911s, raced 2 of them, and a few other Porsches, as well as worked on many other racing Porches. Jesus CHRIST. I've been racing in SCCA for a couple DECADES. I've SEEN the difference TIRES FUCKING MAKE you SHITHEEL.

God DAMN. That REALLY pissed me off.

[southdiver1]

Caling me BRAND BLIND? I'm not even a Chevy fan. I'm an Ex PCA member ,and have owned 3 911s, raced 2 of them, and a few other Porsches, as well as worked on many other racing Porches. Jesus CHRIST. I've been racing in SCCA for a couple DECADES. I've SEEN the difference TIRES FUCKING MAKE you SHITHEEL.

God DAMN. That REALLY pissed me off.

Shitheel? 

[Raza]

Shitheel? 

That's a new one on me too.

[GoCougs]

the 911's engine weighs as much as the Corvette's, as is realized by those that do the LSx conversion to 911s.

Now that one I'd have to see proof of owing to a flat's efficiency in block material usage.

[SVT666]

Let's calm down people.  We don't want another C&D here, do we?

[VetteZ06]

VetteZ06 & Lebowski:? ChrisV would have us believe that the low 400 HP Porsche GT3 beat the low 500 HP Corvette Z06 strictly because of its tires.? I'm sure neither of you are that brand blind...right?

I'm obviously biased (my namesake should remove any doubt with regards to that subject), but I'm not blind. Far from it.

Give the Z06 a set of tires equivalent to the GT3, and I think its track time would've been a bit different. The fact that they mentioned the tires as a disadvantage more than a few times throughout the article lends some credence to such a thought.

The Porsche probably made up some time in the corners, but that doesn't mean it won because it handled better. The Corvette was at a clear disadvantage with its stock rubber. Perhaps Chevrolet could make said better tires an option.

[SVT666]

I'm obviously biased (my namesake should remove any doubt with regards to that subject), but I'm not blind. Far from it.

Give the Z06 a set of tires equivalent to the GT3, and I think its track time would've been a bit different. The fact that they mentioned the tires as a disadvantage more than a few times throughout the article lends some credence to such a thought.

The Porsche probably made up some time in the corners, but that doesn't mean it won because it handled better. The Corvette was at a clear disadvantage with its stock rubber. Perhaps Chevrolet could make said better tires an option.

Maybe the two cars shouldn't have been compared at all considering they are directed at two different buyers.  The GT3 is directed at people who will be taking it to the track quite often.  The Z06 is not.  I think it speaks volumes of the Z06 that they felt they had to compare it against a car that is practically built specifically for the track.

[Raza]

I'm obviously biased (my namesake should remove any doubt with regards to that subject), but I'm not blind. Far from it.

Give the Z06 a set of tires equivalent to the GT3, and I think its track time would've been a bit different. The fact that they mentioned the tires as a disadvantage more than a few times throughout the article lends some credence to such a thought.

The Porsche probably made up some time in the corners, but that doesn't mean it won because it handled better. The Corvette was at a clear disadvantage with its stock rubber. Perhaps Chevrolet could make said better tires an option.

My bet is with equal tires, the Porsche would still handle better, but the Z06's better ability to get its power to the ground on corner exits would give it the time advantage.  That said, I still want the 911, though I take nothing away from the Z06.  It's quite a machine.

[Lebowski]

My bet is with equal tires, the Porsche would still handle better, but the Z06's better ability to get its power to the ground on corner exits would give it the time advantage.? That said, I still want the 911, though I take nothing away from the Z06.? It's quite a machine.

Porsche whore.

[r0tor]

Maybe the two cars shouldn't have been compared at all considering they are directed at two different buyers.? The GT3 is directed at people who will be taking it to the track quite often.? The Z06 is not.? I think it speaks volumes of the Z06 that they felt they had to compare it against a car that is practically built specifically for the track.

what advantage does a Z06 have over a normal vette if your not taking it to the track?

[Raza]

what advantage does a Z06 have over a normal vette if your not taking it to the track?

At the very least, the same advantage and S65 AMG has over an S550.