Do I need to use a dealership for an ATF fluid/filter service?

[Secret Chimp]

I think my car needs a new trans filter. It shifts fine going up and down gears, but when it has to downshift under power, generally the engine will wing up from 1700-2100rpm to around 3200 before the lower gear engages. This happens at both in-town speeds and highway speeds, so I know it's not just one clutch/gear set that's simply worn out. I have reason to believe the car was relatively well-serviced before I bought it (timing belt cover looks a lot newer than the rest of the engine, tires are relatively new and not ridiculously cheap, plug wires were serviced not too long ago, oil filter looked rather clean and new before I had a change just to be safe) so I think it received the proper 90,000 mile fluid flush (fluid doesn't smell burnt or anything either). I'm around 168,000 now, so perhaps I need an early flush plus a new filter, I dunno.
Anyways, I've searched various forums, and people reporting far more severe problems than mine (having the car go up to or near redline before it moves or shifts at all) had a clogged filter suggested as a possible problem to look at before transmission work. However, like many cars made in relatively recent years, the auto in a 97 Accord needs Honda-made, Honda-specific ATF fluid, not Dextron 3 with some additive or whatever, or it won't work right and possibly be damaged. Should I shop dealers to have this service done, or can I somehow get enough Honda ATF fluid to give to an independent shop to use?
I'm aware of that adage about not changing fluid on higher-mileage transmissions, but I think my manual would say "change it once at 90,000 and then filter only thereafter" if that was true.

[SaltyDog]

I doubt it.  I took my Buick in to the local mechanic for the same procedure.

[JWC]

I'll do the Volvo at home.  Too complicated for my guys.

[Secret Chimp]

I doubt it.? I took my Buick in to the local mechanic for the same procedure.

Yeah, but I doubt your Buick's transmission is made unhappy by off-the-shelf-from-anywhere transmission fluid, being an American car.

[Danish]

Go to a Honda dealer, the parts department should have Honda ATF in stock.

And as for filters, my Dad's Camry didn't have a filter, but a screen instead.... so you took that out and cleaned it. Look into whether this is the same for you.

IIRC, a tranny fluid change should be easily done at home.

[Raghavan]

Automatic transmissions have a drain plug, so draining and pouring in new ATF should be easy as changing engine oil.

[Rupert]

So do manuals...

Getting the oil into the trans can be a pain in the ass, though, 'cause you can't just pour it in. You've gotta use a pump thing with a tube. Or, at least Miatas are that way.

[Raghavan]

Manuals don't have drain plugs.

[Rupert]

My Miata had two plugs in the transmission. One to drain and one to fill. My Miata was a manual. Therefore, at least some manuals have drain plugs. Why would they not have drain plugs? Yer supposed to change manual gear oil more often than ATF in an automatic.

[JWC]

Automatic transmissions have a drain plug, so draining and pouring in new ATF should be easy as changing engine oil.

Buying Honda fluid should be as simple as visiting the Honda dealership's parts department.  I highly recommend it over just going to a parts store.  Your owner's manual may have outdated information. 

You may want to talk to a "friend" in the service department if you have one.  My 2000 Volvo has a harsh 2-3 shift.  There is a software update to eliminate this.   You may want to check for software updates for the PCM.

Back when I was with Honda (80's), Hondas had drain plugs, but the filter was internal of the transmission and the only way to get to it was to pull the trans and split the case.   Not all autos have drain plugs.  GM and Ford haven't had drain plugs in automatics for years, probably decades.  Both began eliminated  trans fluid dipsticks years ago.   

[r0tor]

I believe Ford and GM stopped using drain plugs because it forces you to drop the pan and change the filter with each oil change... which is what you really should do

(for the record - my manual tranny has fill and drain plugs, as does my diff for that matter)

[Secret Chimp]

I don't believe I can do this myself; the transmission needs a flush, not change. If I drop the pan and whatnot, a vast majority of the fluid is going to stay inside of the transmission, and then quickly re-plug the filter or screen that I just replaced/cleaned.

[Danish]

If you drop the pan, the vast majority of the fluid will drain out and onto you

[AutobahnSHO]

If you drop the pan, the vast majority of the fluid will drain out and onto you

Unless you loosen all the bolts a half turn, then loosen one corner and put a pan under it- then as it drains out you loosen them all a little more and gradually pour it out..

All the cars I've owned don't have any drain bolts..

[S204STi]

In the case of your Honda I would either take it to the Honda shop or buy the Honda ATF and do it yourself, or buy the Honda ATF and take it to a cheaper garage.

The reason I say this is that the specific formulation of the Honda ATF cannot be exactly duplicated by putting additives in DexronIII/IV, and your transmission may not shift quite as well as it should.  Considering your complaint is shift quality I would say you should go with the Honda ATF.  Sometimes you really do get what you pay for.

Either way your dealership should be competitive with their rates, especially since many Honda dealers have introduced the "Quick Service" department to their shop in order to keep customers from defecting to Jiffy Lube, or to cause them to return from a lube shop to the dealership.  That plus the sketchy reputation of many Lube chains makes me think that you are better off at the dealership.  Plus, if you ask them to replace the filter, they will put a Honda filter in the transmission, which will be of the highest quality and designed specifically for your transmission.

Also, if you want to both replace the filter and flush it, have them replace the filter, refill the transmission to proper level, and then run the flusher  to get the remaining old fluid (about 1/2 to 2/3) out of it.  At least, that is how I would do it.

[r0tor]

IMO the flush is just a gimmick that they use to charge you 3x more money then it should really cost

Yes there is fluid in the torque converter that will not be replaced with a simple pan drop, but what they don't tell you is (secret) studies show a good 1/3 of the total fluid is locked up in surface film that generally does not leave in the time they give for a flush... so your paying an extra $70 to change an extra 10% or less fluid

[Raghavan]

My Miata had two plugs in the transmission. One to drain and one to fill. My Miata was a manual. Therefore, at least some manuals have drain plugs. Why would they not have drain plugs? Yer supposed to change manual gear oil more often than ATF in an automatic.

I thought there was a little hole in the side so you can stick your finger in it and see the level of the fluid and what condition it's in.
And i thought you drop the whole pan to drain the oil?

[r0tor]

I thought there was a little hole in the side so you can stick your finger in it and see the level of the fluid and what condition it's in.
And i thought you drop the whole pan to drain the oil?

i assume its like my RX8 manual tranny (and diff for that matter)... to change the oil you unscrew the fill plug, unscrew the drain plug, drain the oil, whipe off the magnet on the drain plug, reinstall the drain plug, then fill through the fill hole until the level reaches the bottom of the hole, then screw the fill plug back in and your done

it took me maybe 15 minutes to do

[etypeJohn]

Manuals don't have drain plugs.

Since when?  I've never seen a maunal box without one.

[93JC]

No kidding. How the hell would you get the fluid out?

On an automatic you drop the pan, but manuals don't have pans, so... ?

[southdiver1]

When I do my fluid change (automatic). I use a suction device to suck the fluid right out of the dipstick.
Do a google search. It is a LOT cleaner then dropping a full pan.

[AutobahnSHO]

Since when?? I've never seen a maunal box without one.

My SHO didn't.  They have a Mazda-built 5spd.  There was a bolt up higher on the side to ADD fluid, you filled it until fluid was level with that hole.

[93JC]

My SHO didn't.? They have a Mazda-built 5spd.? There was a bolt up higher on the side to ADD fluid, you filled it until fluid was level with that hole.

So how'd you change the fluid?

[Raghavan]

My auto teachers Miata didn't have a drain bolt.

[AutobahnSHO]

IMO the flush is just a gimmick that they use to charge you 3x more money then it should really cost

Yes there is fluid in the torque converter that will not be replaced with a simple pan drop, but what they don't tell you is (secret) studies show a good 1/3 of the total fluid is locked up in surface film that generally does not leave in the time they give for a flush... so your paying an extra $70 to change an extra 10% or less fluid

I mostly agree, but it's more than 10% that stays in the pan.
I bought 8qts of fluid for my '92, but when I dropped the pan and changed the filter, I only had to add about 4.5 qts back in.

PS- The previous (only) owner changed the fluid/filter every 15-20k miles, used the RIGHT tranny fluid, and (knock on wood) it's still going strong with 100k+ miles on it...

[S204STi]

IMO the flush is just a gimmick that they use to charge you 3x more money then it should really cost

Yes there is fluid in the torque converter that will not be replaced with a simple pan drop, but what they don't tell you is (secret) studies show a good 1/3 of the total fluid is locked up in surface film that generally does not leave in the time they give for a flush... so your paying an extra $70 to change an extra 10% or less fluid

Lets say you drive a Ford Focus with the AXOD 4spd or whatever it is they put in there, and it has a capacity of 9qts (it is something like that IIRC).  Then lets say you drop the pan and drain out what you can and refill it.  You will refill it with around 4-5 qts, which means you have 4-5qts of sh!t fluid left in it.  And lets keep in mind that the fluid is a hydraulic fluid which has to act a certain way or else wear and/or damage can result, yet it is constantly being degraded from the heat of compression and the remnants of the clutches floating around that don't get caught in the filter.  Then, lets say that you do a proper flush in another 30,000mi.  The fluid comes out brown, and afterward it feels like you are driving a Rolls Royce, it's shifting so smooth.

That's how it went with my wife's Focus.

[AutobahnSHO]

So how'd you change the fluid?

Crack the pan open to let it leak out, then take the pan all the way off, dump it out, then put it back on/refill.

I hadn't intended on changing the fluid, but klutzy me was changing the clutch and loosened the wrong bolts.... 

[r0tor]

Lets say you drive a Ford Focus with the AXOD 4spd or whatever it is they put in there, and it has a capacity of 9qts (it is something like that IIRC).? Then lets say you drop the pan and drain out what you can and refill it.? You will refill it with around 4-5 qts, which means you have 4-5qts of sh!t fluid left in it.? And lets keep in mind that the fluid is a hydraulic fluid which has to act a certain way or else wear and/or damage can result, yet it is constantly being degraded from the heat of compression and the remnants of the clutches floating around that don't get caught in the filter.? Then, lets say that you do a proper flush in another 30,000mi.? The fluid comes out brown, and afterward it feels like you are driving a Rolls Royce, it's shifting so smooth.

That's how it went with my wife's Focus.

i'll just say reiterate that a former (well known and hated) employer of mine ran tests and found even with a flush you still have 15-20% of the old oil locked up in surface films.  So if dropping the pan gives you 4-5 qts of shit fluid, after the flush you still had about 2qts of shit fluid in your tranny - so you paid the extra rediculous amount to change 2-3 qts of oil.

The study actually showed it was more cost effective to the consumer to do 2 normal oil changes (which leaves you with about 10% shit fluid left) then a change and flush.  -shrug-

[etypeJohn]

My SHO didn't.? They have a Mazda-built 5spd.? There was a bolt up higher on the side to ADD fluid, you filled it until fluid was level with that hole.

And RAghaven:  My auto teachers Miata didn't have a drain bolt.

Your right, I forgot about the SHO not having one. 

http://www.veloce.co.uk/shop/graphics/pdf/V059.pdf  shows a drain plug for the Miata manual box.  maybe just some years didn't have one.

[FoMoJo]

Lets say you drive a Ford Focus with the AXOD 4spd or whatever it is they put in there, and it has a capacity of 9qts (it is something like that IIRC).? Then lets say you drop the pan and drain out what you can and refill it.? You will refill it with around 4-5 qts, which means you have 4-5qts of sh!t fluid left in it.? And lets keep in mind that the fluid is a hydraulic fluid which has to act a certain way or else wear and/or damage can result, yet it is constantly being degraded from the heat of compression and the remnants of the clutches floating around that don't get caught in the filter.? Then, lets say that you do a proper flush in another 30,000mi.? The fluid comes out brown, and afterward it feels like you are driving a Rolls Royce, it's shifting so smooth.

That's how it went with my wife's Focus.

Makes sense.

It pays, I think, to do fluid and filter changes fairly frequently...at least per recommended intervals.  I've had fluid and filter changes on my wife's '02 Focus every 50,000 kilometers (about 30,000 miles) and with 165,000 kilometers (a little over 100,000 miles) it still functions as new.  Maybe next time (200,000 kilometres) I'll get a flush.