Double Take: Saturn Aura XR vs. Toyota Camry SE

[VetteZ06]

Some new car models have more riding on them than others. Such is the case with the redone sixth-generation Toyota Camry and the new Saturn Aura. Expectations for these vehicles couldn?t be higher, since both figure heavily into each company?s plans.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070126/FREE/70118010/1004

[ifcar]

I've never thought much of the SE's ride/handling tradeoff, even in the current gen. The suspension seems to be tuned in the hope that buyers will mistake stiffness for agility. Had their test Camry been a standard-suspension version, one of their complaints would have been eliminated. But the Aura definitely has its merits over any Camry model (and vice versa).

[280Z Turbo]

Why does it seem that the only time we get a decent car from GM or Ford, it comes from one of their overseas subsidiaries?

[MX793]

Why does it seem that the only time we get a decent car from GM or Ford, it comes from one of their overseas subsidiaries?

The Aura isn't really a rebadged European car.  No moreso than the Malibu or G6.

[ro51092]

Why does it seem that the only time we get a decent car from GM or Ford, it comes from one of their overseas subsidiaries?

Umm, because it's true, with the exceptions of the Corvette, CTS, GT, and Mustang.

[ifcar]

Why does it seem that the only time we get a decent car from GM or Ford, it comes from one of their overseas subsidiaries?

Because the cars that enthusiasts like are the same as the mainstream cars abroad?

[Catman]

It's getting to the point where the differences are so small that the $4000 price difference will be a significant consideration when it comes time for a purchase.  I'm wondering at this point what the resale value factor will be on the Saturn.  Obviously, it's nice to save $4000 but if the resale value is $4000 less than the Camry then it might be insignificant in the long run.

I may be in the minority here but the Camry SE looks good to me.

[FordSVT]

The Camry's not a bad car if all you're looking for is relatively comfortable a-b transportation, but it's not half as sporty as a Fusion or Accord (even with 267 hp and a "sport" package). I also think the Camry is pretty ugly. The older models were rather boring, but they weren't offensive. I think the Camry looks like some kind of sea creature. Add on the tacky ground skirts and shit on the sport model and it gets worse. Totally heavy, unbalanced look.
-FordSVT-

[Raza]

It's getting to the point where the differences are so small that the $4000 price difference will be a significant consideration when it comes time for a purchase.  I'm wondering at this point what the resale value factor will be on the Saturn.  Obviously, it's nice to save $4000 but if the resale value is $4000 less than the Camry then it might be insignificant in the long run.

I may be in the minority here but the Camry SE looks good to me.

Resale value is a valid point (of course it is a neverending spiral) but if you plan to keep the car for a long time (beyond 6-8 years) or if you're not leasing, it's not that big of a deal.  Resale of most cars even out in the long run.

[TBR]

Incorrect. Shop beyond 10 years old and the prices differences are still there.

[the Teuton]

But in 10 years, the $4000 difference doesn't matter anymore.  You're not going to lose a significant amount more money on one over the other if you keep it for that long, whether maintenance or resale.  And besides, GM has a better warranty right now, so it will absorb a lot of the difference if the gap does grow any more in value.

The Saturn, if proven to be reliable, might actually be a better car to own.  When was the last time someone ever said that?

[The Pirate]

And, if you're keeping a car for 6 years or longer, you'll own it outright at that point.  A big problem with resale value, for a short term owner, is being upside down on the loan because the car's value dropped significantly.  If you've had a car for 6 years, you'll have paid it off, and at that point, resale isn't quite as important.

[Raza]

Incorrect. Shop beyond 10 years old and the prices differences are still there.

Some cars have unjustifiable and unsustainable demand.  That's why I use qualifiers like "most" and "not that big".

[afty]

It's getting to the point where the differences are so small that the $4000 price difference will be a significant consideration when it comes time for a purchase.

It it really a $4000 difference, though?  With Saturn's no-haggle pricing (I'm assuming they still do this), you will be paying sticker for the Saturn, but you're going to be paying invoice on the Camry, which is around $2k under MSRP.  So the real price difference is probably closer to $2000.

[Eye of the Tiger]

How can you assume you'll pay invoice for the Camry? Salespeople know that the average car-buyer has a serious hard-on for the Camry, so they're not going to back down so easily. It's not like they're hard to sell.

[GoCougs]

Most new car buyers though don't keep their cars 10 years, so resale is a factor to be reckoned with, and beyond any short-term strategy an automaker could hope to implement.

One big factor IMO is that Detroit's fleets sales (read: indiscriminant, short-term buyers). Cobalt, G6, Grand Prix, Malibu (not just Classic), Impala, Charger, Magnum, 500, etc., are all over 30% fleet sales, and a number are over 50%.

[Raza]

How can you assume you'll pay invoice for the Camry? Salespeople know that the average car-buyer has a serious hard-on for the Camry, so they're not going to back down so easily. It's not like they're hard to sell.

When I bought the Passat, the most they'd take off the Camry was $500. 

[ifcar]

The local no-haggle auto dealer, Fitzgerald Auto Mall, sells the majority of its Camrys at invoice.

http://www.fitzmall.com/

[TheIntrepid]

When my parents were getting our Camry they had a $500 market adjustment. The 07s were just released at that time.

[FordSVT]

Most new car buyers though don't keep their cars 10 years, so resale is a factor to be reckoned with, and beyond any short-term strategy an automaker could hope to implement.

One big factor IMO is that Detroit's fleets sales (read: indiscriminant, short-term buyers). Cobalt, G6, Grand Prix, Malibu (not just Classic), Impala, Charger, Magnum, 500, etc., are all over 30% fleet sales, and a number are over 50%.

Do you know what the figures are for Camry and Corolla and whether they are increasing or decreasing their fleet sales share? There's an Enterprise rental car store here in town that offers nothing but Camry and Corolla for their small and midsize offerings. They used to have Echos but they haven't got any Yaris yet.

I will admit that the one brand I've never seen on a rental lot is Honda, at least not around here.
-FordSVT-

[JYODER240]

When my parents were getting our Camry they had a $500 market adjustment. The 07s were just released at that time.

Your parents paid $500 over sticker for a Camry? You're kidding me right?

[MX793]

Do you know what the figures are for Camry and Corolla and whether they are increasing or decreasing their fleet sales share? There's an Enterprise rental car store here in town that offers nothing but Camry and Corolla for their small and midsize offerings. They used to have Echos but they haven't got any Yaris yet.

I will admit that the one brand I've never seen on a rental lot is Honda, at least not around here.
-FordSVT-

IIRC, Camry fleet sales are around 15%-18%.  I think their fleet sales have been increasing in recent years, possibly because the domestics have been trying to cut back and the fleets need somewhere else for cars.  No idea on the Corolla, but I would be surprised if fleet sales accounted for even 20%.

[MX793]

And, if you're keeping a car for 6 years or longer, you'll own it outright at that point.  A big problem with resale value, for a short term owner, is being upside down on the loan because the car's value dropped significantly.  If you've had a car for 6 years, you'll have paid it off, and at that point, resale isn't quite as important.

You don't think resale doesn't matter that much after 6 years or when you've paid the car off?  Let me put it this way, lets say that 6 years ago you were looking at either an Impala or a Camry.  Both cars were $20K and you would have had the same payments and interest an everything on either, so in the end you would have paid the same for either.  If you were to sell either car today, you could get around $6K-$6.5K for the Impala while you could probably get close to $8K for the Camry.  If operating costs are the same between the two (and I suspect they are probably pretty close), that means you ultimately saved $1500-$2000 by going for the Camry and keeping the cars 6 years.  That's not exactly chump change, especially for a working class American.

[GoCougs]

Do you know what the figures are for Camry and Corolla and whether they are increasing or decreasing their fleet sales share? There's an Enterprise rental car store here in town that offers nothing but Camry and Corolla for their small and midsize offerings. They used to have Echos but they haven't got any Yaris yet.

I will admit that the one brand I've never seen on a rental lot is Honda, at least not around here.
-FordSVT-

The numbers I have are thru first half of 2005 and thru first half of 2006.

Camry: 12.8% (2006), 15.9% (2005)
Corolla: 12.8% (2006), 14.0% (2005)

The link just died on me so I don't have any other hard numbers. Detroit's trend is the opposite. They have increased fleet sales vs. 2005. Honda didn't seem to have many; less than 5% for each model.

[SVT666]

You don't think resale doesn't matter that much after 6 years or when you've paid the car off?? Let me put it this way, lets say that 6 years ago you were looking at either an Impala or a Camry.? Both cars were $20K and you would have had the same payments and interest an everything on either, so in the end you would have paid the same for either.? If you were to sell either car today, you could get around $6K-$6.5K for the Impala while you could probably get close to $8K for the Camry.? If operating costs are the same between the two (and I suspect they are probably pretty close), that means you ultimately saved $1500-$2000 by going for the Camry and keeping the cars 6 years.? That's not exactly chump change, especially for a working class American.

However you could have probably bought the Impala at 0% and at dealer invoice.  The Camry would have cost you close to MSRP and 5% or so.  The difference in resale value is more then made up for by buying the Impala.  It's one of the reasons I buy domestics at this time.  The cars are just as good as the imports, but I can buy them for a lot less.

[afty]

How can you assume you'll pay invoice for the Camry? Salespeople know that the average car-buyer has a serious hard-on for the Camry, so they're not going to back down so easily. It's not like they're hard to sell.

Cars in this class always sell for invoice after the initial frenzy.  Camry, Accord, Altima, etc.  They sell so many of them that they become a commodity and prices drop to invoice or below.

Check out the Camry "prices paid" thread at Edmunds.  Camrys are currently going for just above invoice. 
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef071a2/4805

[MX793]

However you could have probably bought the Impala at 0% and at dealer invoice.  The Camry would have cost you close to MSRP and 5% or so.  The difference in resale value is more then made up for by buying the Impala.  It's one of the reasons I buy domestics at this time.  The cars are just as good as the imports, but I can buy them for a lot less.

In my example, the total price paid for the two is supposed to end up exactly the same.  In other words, after all haggling and discounts and deals etc... you will pay the exact same amount to own either.  In which case, after you sell them in 6 years, the Camry cost you less to own because you'll get more for it.

[SVT666]

In my example, the total price paid for the two is supposed to end up exactly the same.? In other words, after all haggling and discounts and deals etc... you will pay the exact same amount to own either.? In which case, after you sell them in 6 years, the Camry cost you less to own because you'll get more for it.

I understand that, however reality is different.  In the real world you pay less for a domestic.

[MX793]

I understand that, however reality is different.  In the real world you pay less for a domestic.

I paid roughly $16.6K for my Mazda out the door.  I probably could have gotten a similarly equipped Focus for around $14.5K-$15K.  Let's just say $14.5K.  According to KBB, my car is worth $14.6K private party.  Had I bought a Focus instead and put the same mileage and everything on it, it would be worth $9.3K private party.  If I were to sell my car today for $14.6K, it would mean that I ultimately paid $2000 + operating costs to own the car over the past 3 or so years.  If I'd bought a Focus instead and sold it today, it would have cost me $5200 + operating costs to own.  Operating costs as far as insurance and fuel should be the same between the two, so that means that the Focus actually would have ended up costing me $3200 more to own.  Domestics are cheaper, eh?

[pommes-t]

The fact that one of these guys liked the Opel Vectra based chassis and explicitely said so makes me doubt about their authority...