Roadracing Mustangs

[southdiver1]

...and suspension and brake mods.? The cars have to be safe afterall.

The reason I diasgree is because if these are performance cars, the brakes and suspension should already be set up properly.
Hell, I thought I was being nice in giving the tires.

[r0tor]

brake pads are all that should be needed for safety on a performance car... its all the 911 gets and I know for a fact Speedsource in the ST class RX8 runs the factory calipers and rotors?

[Nethead]

r0tor: RoDude, HEMI666 is right, you know--any new Porsche costs multiple times the cost of a new Mustang, which start somewhere in the $19,000s for the six and about $26,000 for the V8.  The standard 3-valve V8 is illegal in any Grand Am Cup Mustang of any year, so you couldn't use it anyway.  The 5.4 'Cammer in the GT500 is the bigger brother of the 5.0 'Cammer, but it's illegal in any Grand Am Cup Mustang, too.  So little brother takes on the Grand Am.  And little brother IS a production vehicle--any SVT-certified Ford dealership can order you one, ready to race.  It is not street-legal because it has a non-US-specs VIN (I think they run "FRC001", "FRC002", "FRC003", yada yada yada), no turn signals (Does any Grand Am vehicle have working turn signals?), and no emissions equipment (No Grand Am vehicle has emissions equipment--for performance AND safety as the Grand Am officials fear the dangers of hot cataclysmic perverters getting doused with racing gasoline in pile-ups).  The Ford GT's emissions equipment or the GT500's emissions equipment would probably yield an emissions-legal 5.0 'Cammer, but no certification has been requested--Grand Am Cup cars run on racing gasoline, which may not pass through the catalysts without ruining them.

Here's a point of reference:  Ford has built a few Mustangs named FR500GT, also naturally-aspirated and also 5.0 liters.  With all the Grand Am Cup's restrictions, the FR500C's 5.0 liter engine puts out 420 HP according to Ford.  The FR500GT's unrestricted 5.0 liter engine puts out 550 HP according to Ford.  Sharp people will pick up quickly on the difference all those Grand Am Cup restrictions make--that's a 130 HP difference for those not so sharp.  That's as much horsepower as you would gain by adding a non-intercooled supercharger to the 5.0.  Now, neither engine is strained to produce these results since Ford engineers all the competition 'Cammers to race for an entire season without a rebuild.  This ain't no NASCAR shit with a chassis development engine, a practice engine, a qualifying engine, a race engine, yada yada yada--this is one engine for an entire season of practices, the same engine for an entire season of qualifying, and the same engine for an entire season of races.

Have you found out the price of an out-the-door ready-to-race Porsche GT3 built to GS class specs?   

Sure, a faster Porsche 997/996/Carrera (all three race in the Grand Am Cup Series) can be built, but so can a faster Mustang.  There ARE faster Porsches than those in the Cup, but they compete in the GT class where bookoodles of factory and non-factory aftermarket parts are allowed.  And the GT class takes the military service attitude: "Don't ask, don't tell".

Yes, the Grand Am officials bend over backwards to help out the GM competitors--after all, the only US automobile manufacturers sponsoring the Grand Am Cup are Pontiac and GMC (yes, GMC---??????) so
they get the rules they want--for all the good it does them.  Cobalts are even allowed "lightweight doors" and the Cadillac CTS-Vs were allowed entire lightweight bodies and the biggest engines in the Cup.  Even with the biggest engines in the Cup and entire lightweight bodies, Cadillacs never won a GS class race--maybe once getting a third or fourth overall.  The Cadillacs dropped out before the end of the 2005 season.  BMW is a big sponsor of the Grand Am Cup, too, so no officials investigated the charges of illegal high-compression pistons in the Marks/Auberlen BMWs in the '05 season--which probably pissed off some Porsche competitors and certainly pissed off some of the other winless BMW competitors.  Ford wasn't involved in the acrimony since Mustangs won the manufacturer's championship, Mustang-equipped Blackforest Motorsports won the team championship, and Mustang rider David Empringham won the driver's championship.  There were no other championships to win in the GS class.  Mazdas took those three championships in the ST class.

[SVT666]

The reason I diasgree is because if these are performance cars, the brakes and suspension should already be set up properly.
Hell, I thought I was being nice in giving the tires.

True, however non-racing spec brakes wear out very fast in a racing application.  So do engines and transmissions.  You wouldn't get many competitors because it would cost them too much.

[Nethead]

southdiver1:  The Nethead here likes this quote:

"The reason I diasgree is because if these are performance cars, the brakes and suspension should already be set up properly.
Hell, I thought I was being nice in giving the tires."

That's the way I'd run a racing series.  And you were being nice to allow non-stock tires.  If it's a "performance car", the tires should perform at least as well as the vehicle riding on them, huh?  Hopefully, somewhat better...

[Nethead]

r0tor: Sure, Mustangs offer a 4.6 naturally-aspirated 3-valve.? But they also offer a supercharged, intercooled, 5.4 4-valver with dual injectors and DOHCs.? Brembo-equipped, too.? A totally street-legal vehicle--but the Grand Am told Ford in mid-'06 that there would be no approval of the GT500 now or in the future.? "Try ALMS." they said.

But the Grand Am Cup ain't about street-legal vehicles--no emissions equipment mandated, no turn signals mandated, no decibel limits mandated, no legal ground clearances mandated, and not even DOT-legal tires mandated.? So Ford took the rulebook, built some Mustangs, presented them to the officials, modified them per the demands of the officials, and obtained certification for the Grand Am Cup series.? Any company can do this, but Ford was the first one required to sell identical models to any competitors who wanted one.? Ford has complied with every rule, which has changed for the Mustangs about every other race due to their performance on the track--you've read my listings of the interminable punitive efforts by the officials.?

I note how you pointedly avoid my assertion that it would be abominably stupid for the Mustang to compete with a V6 or a flat six or a straight six.? Ford has a huge history of V8 excellence--who else offered V8 engines in 1932 that's still around today??? Ford V8s have won countless Indycar races, countless Formula 1 races, some hundreds of stockcar races, countless dragraces in every class where V8s are allowed, multitudes of off-road races, and a 4.7 liter version of the Quadcammer powered the fastest production car in history until it was overshadowed by the twice-bigger engine in the Veyron.? ?Five outright winners of LeMans have used Ford V8s.? Sportscar championships since at least the creation of the Cobra (The Cobra 427 once held the title of the world's fastest production car, too--the last piston-engined car to do so according to dudes on the old AutoWeek forums.).? Mustangs have offered V8 engines from the very beginning--why throw away nearly eight decades of heritage?? And why diddle around with a six when you have a Quadcam 4-valves-per-cylinder V8 with six-bolt main bearings (two of them are crossbolts--the strongest design ever devised-- and on some production Ford V8s from even before Mustangs hit the dealerships nearly forty-three years ago).? Jealous competitors argue that Ford cheats--besides the six main bearing bolts, each main bearing is also fortified by two high-strength dowels as well.? When you have an engine this good, why not race it?? Especially when you have America's favorite performance car ready to burn up the tracks!?

You can whine all you want, RoDude, but there it is...If the Porsche factory wants to certify a faster Porsche, they know what they need to do.? ?If the BMW factory wants to certify a faster BMW, they know what they need to do.? If the Nissan factory...yada yada yada...

Here's an idea that could work--Ford sells V8 'Cammers to Panoz, to Koenigsegg, and no doubt to some other sportscar manufacturers, right?? I'm sure Ford would work out a similar arrangement to provide the R50 'Cammer V8 to Porsche for a GS class 997 and to BMW for a GS class M3 and to Nissan for a GS class 350Z and to yada yada yada...The bottom line is, you either have the R50 'Cammer or you're trying to catch it.

Isn't that your mother looking for you over in the riceburner threads?

[r0tor]

r0tor: Sure, Mustangs offer a 4.6 naturally-aspirated 3-valve.? But they also offer a supercharged, intercooled, 5.4 4-valver with dual injectors and DOHCs.? Brembo-equipped, too.? A totally street-legal vehicle--but the Grand Am told Ford in mid-'06 that there would be no approval of the GT500 now or in the future.? "Try ALMS." they said.

But the Grand Am Cup ain't about street-legal vehicles--no emissions equipment mandated, no turn signals mandated, no decibel limits mandated, no legal ground clearances mandated, and not even DOT-legal tires mandated.? So Ford took the rulebook, built some Mustangs, presented them to the officials, modified them per the demands of the officials, and obtained certification for the Grand Am Cup series.? Any company can do this, but Ford was the first one required to sell identical models to any competitors who wanted one.? Ford has complied with every rule, which has changed for the Mustangs about every other race due to their performance on the track--you've read my listings of the interminable punitive efforts by the officials.?

I note how you pointedly avoid my assertion that it would be abominably stupid for the Mustang to compete with a V6 or a flat six or a straight six.? Ford has a huge history of V8 excellence--who else offered V8 engines in 1932 that's still around today??? And Mustangs have offered V8 engines from the very beginning--why throw away four decades of heritage?? And why diddle around with a six when you have a Quadcam 4-valves-per-cylinder V8 with six-bolt main bearings (two of them are crossbolts--the strongest design ever devised-- and on some production Ford V8s from even before the Mustang hit the dealerships).? Jealous competitors argue that Ford cheats--besides the six main bearing bolts, each main bearing is also fortified by two high-strength dowels as well.? When you have an engine this good, why not race it?? Especially when you have America's favorite performance car ready to burn up the tracks!?

You can whine all you want, RoDude, but there it is...If the Porsche factory wants to certify a faster Porsche, they know what they need to do.? ?If the BMW factory wants to certify a faster BMW, they know what they need to do.? If the Nissan factory...yada yada yada...

Here's an idea that could work--Ford sells V8 'Cammers to Panoz, to Koenigsegg, and no doubt to some other sportscar manufacturers, right?? I'm sure Ford would work out a similar arrangement to provide the R50 'Cammer V8 to Porsche for a GS class 997 and to BMW for a GS class M3 and to Nissan for a GS class 350Z and to yada yada yada...The bottom line is, you either have the R50 'Cammer or you're trying to catch it.

Isn't that your mother looking for you over in the riceburner threads?

Porsche has a 997 Carerra, 997 GT3, 997 GT3-RS, in a year a 997 GT2, and a turbo model that are not legal for Grand Am GS competition - so don't cry me a river that the GT500 engine isn't allowed so everyone should be happy they are only using a 5.0L engine.

Grand Am Koni Cup isn't a street legal racing series - its supposedly a production based racing series.  Calling the FR500C a production car is rediculous because NO i can't go to a local Ford dealer and buy the car and drive it home - you need a racing licence and an approval from Ford to order a car.  Because Multimatic builds the car for them, there is also a waiting list so only the drivers of their choosing will receive a car.  This is similar to the GT3 Cup car from Porsche which is illegal in GS.

I never said anything about a Mustang racing a 6 cylinder.  I said all along they should be using the 4.6L 3 valve engine.  It should be more then adequate to race against 3.XL 6 cylinder cars.  Its only fair to race the production engine like all of their competitors.  If they have this great history of V8 excellence, it should not be a problem.

Grand Am will not let Porsche enter a car faster then the BASE model 911.  Hell, it should be fairly obvious when you see in the Rolex series that they allowed tube frame chassis cars to compete against the GT3 because (and stated in an interview with Autoweek) they were tired of Porsche dominating the series.


Either choose...
a) accept the fact that the car makes for a good racer because of the allowences it receives from NASCAR

or

b) don't make the Mustang out to be an all great car that can show up its pricier opponents while having a solid rear axel and blah blah blah because its fairly obvious from the start Ford knew the car was not going to be competitive.

[SVT666]

I said all along they should be using the 4.6L 3 valve engine.?

You can't possibly be reading his posts.  The 3V 4.6L isn't legal under the rules.

[southdiver1]

True, however non-racing spec brakes wear out very fast in a racing application.? So do engines and transmissions.? You wouldn't get many competitors because it would cost them too much.

Well then, if the motors are gonna crap out after three hours of abuse, then I am not sure that they should be sold to the public.
While I was in Germany, I was able to run my 1983 Ford Escort balls to the wall for 4 hours from Augsburg to Kiserslauten stopping only for fuel.
If that little POS could handle it, I would hope that a 911/Corvette/Mustang/Jaguar/Audi could do the same.

Race cars that a consumner can actually go out and buy that very same day.

[r0tor]

You can't possibly be reading his posts.? The 3V 4.6L isn't legal under the rules.

its not legal to use because for did some dealing and specified the 5.0L would be used 

[MX793]

no decibel limits mandated, no legal ground clearances mandated

There is a 106 decibel limit in Grand Am racing (Grand Am General Rules and Regulations 7-1.2).  Minimum ride height is 3.5 inches for the Koni Challenge cars (Koni Challenge rules 7-11.1).

who else offered V8 engines in 1932 that's still around today??

Cadillac's been offering V8s since 1914.  Rolls Royce built their first V8 in 1904.

Five outright winners of LeMans have used Ford V8s.

5 outright winners at Le Mans with Ford V8s?  I know GT40s account for 4 ('66-'69), but what was the 5th?

[SVT666]

Well then, if the motors are gonna crap out after three hours of abuse, then I am not sure that they should be sold to the public.
While I was in Germany, I was able to run my 1983 Ford Escort balls to the wall for 4 hours from Augsburg to Kiserslauten stopping only for fuel.
If that little POS could handle it, I would hope that a 911/Corvette/Mustang/Jaguar/Audi could do the same.

Race cars that a consumner can actually go out and buy that very same day.

I get what you mean, but I don't think you get what I'm saying. 

1. Driving flat out on an Autobahn is not comparable to racing. 
2. I didn't say it wouldn't last 3 hours, but the engines won't last a full season like race spec engines.  you might have to rebuild your engine 3 or 4 times in a season...and that gets very expensive.

[r0tor]

all the competition is using stock trannies and pretty much stock engines 

[southdiver1]

I get what you mean, but I don't think you get what I'm saying.?

1. Driving flat out on an Autobahn is not comparable to racing.?
2. I didn't say it wouldn't last 3 hours, but the engines won't last a full season like race spec engines.? you might have to rebuild your engine 3 or 4 times in a season...and that gets very expensive.

Doesn't NASCAR, F1, and a few others do a rebuild after every race?  I am not suggesting that I go out, buy a brand new Corvette and hit the track. I am suggesting that these will befactory or factory sponsored racers. I would think that if Ford was able to take a few first place finishes against some of the best running a stock Mustang, then it would be worth a few engine rebuilds/replacements.
Also, a spot on ESPN, FOX or other mainstream venues would be needed to pull in some sponsers and make some money.
IMHO, this will be a much more honest series then anything else out there short of motorcycle racing.
The only snag I can see is how to classify the cars. I mean, I would think that a GT40 would run up against a car like the Viper/ZO6 crowd but, a KR500 Mustang would also fit in.

[SVT666]

Doesn't NASCAR, F1, and a few others do a rebuild after every race??

And they also have multi multi-million dollar budgets.

I am not suggesting that I go out, buy a brand new Corvette and hit the track. I am suggesting that these will befactory or factory sponsored racers. I would think that if Ford was able to take a few first place finishes against some of the best running a stock Mustang, then it would be worth a few engine rebuilds/replacements.

I agree, however why would Ford put a bunch of money into this racing series, when the money they put into NASCAR gets them a lot more exposure?

Also, a spot on ESPN, FOX or other mainstream venues would be needed to pull in some sponsers and make some money.

Do you honestly think that ESPN, FOX, or anyone else will carry this type of racing when they won't even carry more popular sports like hockey?

IMHO, this will be a much more honest series then anything else out there short of motorcycle racing.

I agree.

The only snag I can see is how to classify the cars. I mean, I would think that a GT40 would run up against a car like the Viper/ZO6 crowd but, a KR500 Mustang would also fit in.

And that's why most racing series' dictate what hp, chassis, etc. each competitor can use because a KR500 Mustang and a Ford GT are not in the same class as the Viper and Vette.

[Nethead]

MX793:?
"5 outright winners at Le Mans with Ford V8s?? I know GT40s account for 4 ('66-'69), but what was the 5th?"

It was a model of Mirage, but not the Mirages developed from the '66 street Ford GTs that won LeMans outright in '68 and '69.? The LeMans win in question occurred around 1975, and this vehicle won that year's LeMans outright powered by a 3.0 liter Formula 1 Ford engine.? Once upon a time, I knew what model of Mirage it was, but I don't any more.

"Cadillac's been offering V8s since 1914.  Rolls Royce built their first V8 in 1904."
According to a TV documentary on the life of Henry Ford the First done eight or more years ago, Henry the First designed Cadillac's first V8 for them.  He may have even provided one or more working V8s for them at the time.  Somewhere, there'll be commentary about this if you google effectively...

[MX793]

MX793: 
"5 outright winners at Le Mans with Ford V8s?  I know GT40s account for 4 ('66-'69), but what was the 5th?"

It was a model of Mirage, but not the Mirages developed from the '66 street Ford GTs that won LeMans outright in '68 and '69.  The LeMans win in question occurred around 1975, and this vehicle won that year's LeMans outright powered by a 3.0 liter Formula 1 Ford engine.  Once upon a time, I knew what model of Mirage it was, but I don't any more.

The Mirage was using a Cosworth designed and built motor.  Ford's name was on the motor because Ford was backing Cosworth to develop the motor. 

"Cadillac's been offering V8s since 1914.  Rolls Royce built their first V8 in 1904."
According to a TV documentary on the life of Henry Ford the First done eight or more years ago, Henry the First designed Cadillac's first V8 for them.  He may have even provided one or more working V8s for them at the time.  Somewhere, there'll be commentary about this if you google effectively...

With regard to Henry Ford and the Caddy V8, I've been unable to turn up anything indicating he had anything to do with it.  The only connection between Henry Ford and Cadillac that I've been able to find, and this is a connection I've been aware of for some time, is that Cadillac was created from the former Henry Ford Motor Company.  But this happened over a decade before the first Caddy V8.

Now a bit of backstory for those who don't know.  Due to a disagreement between Henry Ford and the some of the investors backing the Henry Ford Motor Company about how the company should be run, Henry Leland was brought in by the investors as the company's head engineer.  Ford didn't particularly like this and left the company.  With its founder gone, the Henry Ford Motor Company reformed into Cadillac in 1902, with Leland as its founder and chief engineer.  Their first cars were riding on a chassis designed by Ford but were using engines designed by Leland.  Henry Ford would go on to create the modern Ford Motor Company in 1903. 

In light of how things went down, I find it unlikely that Henry Ford would be designing motors for Cadillac some 10+ years later.  Especially when you consider that by 1914, FoMoCo was hugely successful with their Model T.  What I have found points to Henry Leland (and his team of engineers) as the one who was behind the first Caddy V8.

In an interesting and ironic aside, Leland left Cadillac and went on to create Lincoln after WWI.  The company hit financial trouble in the early '20s and was bought by Ford.

[Nethead]

r0tor:? RoDude, there is one underlying truth about automobile racing--it ain't about every car in the race crossing the finish line at exactly the same moment.? 'Know what I mean?

For $125,000 you can't buy anything else that has the win potential of the FR500C.? And for the unassembled price of $76,000 you sure as Hell can't buy the parts for a GT3, M3, 350Z, CTS-V, or any of the various Grand Am Cup GS class Pontiacs that have even the remotest possibility of winning, and probably little chance of even finishing.? ?If $76,000 in parts from any other manufacturer could do it, someone surely would be doing it, don'tcha think??

You or I would buy the assembled racer, but those teams handy at fabrication can save nearly $50,000 by breaking out the acetylene tank, the oxygen, the rods, and having at it.? I can't see a problem with that in a series that does not pay prize money.? And lemme tell ya Ford didn't cut any deals with the Grand Am series officials--check out that sponsors list on the Grand Am website.? Ford ain't there but Pontiac, GMC, and BMW are.? Sponsors like these ain't gonna stand by and let the series officials cut any deals with the competition!?

Moving right along--the Grand Am officials don't stringently enforce the 106 decibel limit on car makes that ain't winning.? 'Ever attended a Grand Am event live?? Those Minis pound out 106 decibels 4,000 yards from their tailpipes--never in the field of automotive competition has so much noise generated so little speed--Winston Churchill.? Their racket was deafening when the WifeDude and the Nethead here attended last year's Grand Am Cup opener at Daytona--and we were in the next-to-the-top level so we could see all the track that wasn't obscured by a tower or like structure.? Mustangs have been required to race with mufflers since a ruling by the officials around June of 2005--and eventually that was extended to all the GS class and probably to the ST class as well.? Check that on the Grand Am website if you like.? Once again, differential enforcement in behalf of the makes that ain't winning would make it advisable to take along earplugs if you plan to attend one or more of the races.

MX793: You have been thorough, MXDude!!? The TV docudrama presented essentially the story I posted, but who knows from what sources they got their material.? The docudrama made much of the acrimony over the V8 designs--thinking hard about it, the film may have implied that the acrimony resulted from either (a) engineering plagiarism of a Henry the First V8 design or (b) just plain old theft of a Henry the First V8 design.? Cadillac was definitely portrayed as the dudes in the black hats, and no one from Cadillac screamed "Lies!" the morning after the prime time broadcast.? Not that anyone would particularly give a shit at least eighty years after the fact...Henry the First probably did his share of skulduggery back in the day, too...

[Nethead]

Grand American Cup/Koni Challenge 2007 update:  Koni signed on as the premiere sponsor of the Grand American Cup for 2007.  This is really, really good because Koni is providing copious amounts of cash for wins and high finishes--which can be fortified with additional cash by using Koni products in the car!  Previously, high-finishers could get a percentage of the entry fees, but this was hardly enough to get anyone to enter a team in a Grand American Cup event...

[Nethead]

r0tor: RoDude, you not being a huge Mustang fan and all, it's understandable that you don't know the pre-Grand-American-Cup history of the Mustang FR500C--there are probably some big Mustang fans who don't know this history either!

Ford Racing Performance Parts began offering a 5.0 'Cammer crater called the T50 around 2004 or possibly early 2005.? It's an engine for customizers and hotrodders since it is street-legal but only in pre-emissions vehicles.? FRPP wanted to advertise the availability of this engine and other performance parts for Mustangs.? FRPP came up with the idea to build a racecar as a promotional vehicle for the 5.0 'Cammer and the other parts they offer.? But they didn't want to go apeshit and lose all appeal to customizers and hotrodders by building some tube-chassis, carbon-fiber-bodied, pseudo-Mustang that resembled a Mustang from high up in the grandstands but was actually some raceshop's totally fabricated bastard.? They wanted to use Mustangs with FRPP aftermarket parts for the Mustang owners who want to do the hotrod thing with their steeds--why let all those bucks go to non-Ford enterprises?? After all, SEMA records show that the Mustang is the most modified vehicle in the history of the Earth--even exceeding the mods done to pre-WWII Fords that have always been the personification of the "hotrod".? Roadracing sounded good, and so GARRA was contacted about what would be acceptable in their Grand Am Cup GS class.? The Grand Am Cup was selected as the venue since the Grand Am rules say that you can submit a request for certification for any late-model vehicle and they will try to draw up specs for that vehicle to compete in the class--where else on Earth would Cadillac CTS-Vs, Porsche 996s/997s/Carreras/Targas, GTOs, Firebirds & Mustangs, BMWs, and Nissan 350Zs be in the same class???? You could submit a request for certification of a Towncar, probably, if it is a 2002 or later model year (the current model year plus the five previous model years are allowed) and you will abide by whatever modifications restrictions would apply in the certification document.?
FRPP went a step further--they agreed to provide any competitor with an identical racecar (or the parts to build one), which is sold through SVT Ford dealerships as the FR500C.?
Multimatic Motorsports had already built Fords for the Grand American Daytona Prototype (DP) class so they were the natural choice to build the FR500Cs.? They did a damned fine job with $76,000 worth of parts (which includes the Mustang body-in-white)!?
The Grand American Cup is not just about sportscars on roadracing courses as many roadracing series are--it's about anything on roadracing courses, and not just sportscars (hence, the CTS-V certification...).? Hittin' the Cup in a sportscar makes it easier, of course, than trying to outhandle a sportscar with a CTS-V--but you can race the car you have if you've gotten it certified by the GARRA officials beforehand.

[r0tor]

Either choose...
a) accept the fact that the car makes for a good racer because of the allowences it receives from NASCAR

or

b) don't make the Mustang out to be an all great car that can show up its pricier opponents while having a solid rear axel and blah blah blah because its fairly obvious from the start Ford knew the car was not going to be competitive.

so your choosing A Nethead?

[Nethead]

r0tor: Neither, RoDude!? The FR500C with all its restrictions--and they are legion--just finished 1-2 at Daytona.? They could win just as easily with the 3-valve V8, but the FR500C was built to promote Ford Racing Performance Parts--the 5.0 'Cammer is available in a crate, but the 3-valve 4.6 is not.
?
You aren't paying attention again--the FR500C was conceived by Ford Racing Performance Parts, and they specifically wanted to promote the parts they have for sale (which is the 4-valve 5.0, but not the 3-valve 4.6 which has never been available in a crate).? Will I need to repeat this three--or will I need to repeat this four more times before you comprehend what I'm saying here?? Attention Deficit Disorder is such a heart-wrenching condition!

The FR500C with the 4-valve V8 meets every single one of the rules that allow certification of any car in the GS class--and was an overwhelming opponent in the opinion of the GARRA officials so it has had all manner of restrictive measures applied to it.? But it has never once been found to be illegal in any way.? The FR500C is essentially a GT500 without the supercharger, intercooler, longer-stroke 5.4 block, emissions gear, upholstery, turn signals, and bodywork (front fascia, air extractors, and rear lip spoiler). Oh yeah, it also doesn't have the GT500's terrific T6060 transmission, unfortunately, but the T56 it does have is doing a fine job.? Any shocks are permitted on GS cars, so the FR500C uses adjustable shocks like everyone else because of the many differing roadracing tracks found in the Cup (Trois Rivieres's highway course is a lot different than Daytona's high banking)--I'm guessing that the GT500's shocks are excellent, but not adjustable (so it can be offered at $40,930).

I guess you're one of those dudes who think only sportscars can/should be fast on roadracing courses.? There was a time when that was surely true.? The first Mustang G. T. 350Rs sorta shot that idea down, and the FR500C is continuing that fine tradition today.? Where were you?

[r0tor]

you say...

The Grand Am Cup was selected as the venue since the Grand Am rules say that you can submit a request for certification for any late-model vehicle and they will try to draw up specs for that vehicle to compete in the class--where else on Earth would Cadillac CTS-Vs, Porsche 996s/997s/Carreras, GTOs, Firebirds & Mustangs, BMWs, and Nissan 350Zs be in the same class???

then say...

They could win just as easily with the 3-valve V8


if the later were true, they would not have gotten the engine, suspension, and brake enhancements because of the first thing i quoted you on

[Nethead]

r0tor: Er...Ro, you DO know that every part on an FR500C can be purchased through the FRPP catalog, don't you?? The FR500C's brakes, the FR500C's suspension, the FR500C's steering, and even the parts that Ford doesn't manufacture--the Sparco competition seat, the series-approved harnesses, the bladdered fuel cell, the datalogging system ($$$), the Fikse wheels, yada yada yada.? These are not "gimmes"--these are parts from the FRPP catalog that anyone can buy, including all the umpty-hundred parts that comprise an entire FR500C for the dedicated Do-It-Yourselfer with a generous limit on their credit card.

BTW, one of your many allegations is that you have to be a blood relative of Henry Ford to buy an FR500C--you don't.? Racers get priority on FR500Cs because missing a coupla races can cost them a championship--it's a supply vs demand thing.?

But if you buy the parts and build it yourself, you don't gotta stand in line to take delivery--you can crank that sucker up and head out on the highway committing felonies out the ass every minute you're behind the wheel.?? ? ?Of course, it ain't a felony until you're convicted and you can't be convicted if they can't try you and you can't be tried if they can't charge you and they can't charge you if they can't arrest you and they can't arrest you if they can't catch you so you should be pretty safe unless you run out of gas or run out of skill.

[r0tor]

Porsche make a whole line of competition parts for the 911 and sells them to racing teams for the Gt3 cup cars - yet no 911 team in grand am can use them    Why should the Mustang if it really is that competitive without the parts?

The FR500C is a purpose built racer in a series designed around production based streetcars... oweing its sucess to anything but that fact is proposterous.

[Nethead]

r0tor: Ro, the Nethead here does not know how the GARRA officialdom determines what parts are allowable and what parts aren't.  It's a witches brew, for sure...
But, as I mentioned upstream, the Nethead here believes that anyone can seek certification of just about any car:  the GARRA website has a form that you can download, fill out, and request certification of whatever it is you want to race with in the series.  For the most part, you submit a set of specs, which GARRA may ask you to modify (they required replacement of the FR500C's X-pipe with an H-pipe prior to certification, for instance, and would not allow equal-length tube headers).  As part of the certification, you gotta agree that GARRA has the right to "adjust" the specs that must be met in future races.  This usually is in the form of penalty weight (called, ironically, "awards" weight by GARRA)--lead plates bolted inside a box on the passenger side floorboard.  If you're still too fast, punitive gear ratios may be mandated.  If you're still too fast, intake restrictor plates may be mandated.  The FR500C has all these "awards", plus a mandated replacement of the stock fuel tank location to the trunk because the stock location ahead of the rear wheels was considered to be too much of a handling advantage.  Go figure. 
It's not gonna happen where a CTS-V, a 350Z, a Carrera, an FR500C, and a Firebird are gonna turn in identical times lap after lap.  No amount of rules diddlin' can accomplish this.  And no one's gonna be satisfied unless their car comes in first--the more often, the better...
Porsche claims that they have finally made a Grand Am spec GT3 for the GS class, but whether one or more of those GT3s were at Daytona the Nethead here does not know.  It's quite possible that some of them were. 
But there were a dozen FR500Cs there, and a coupla more as backup cars that were not entered in the race.  One collector bought a new FR500C at an auction in early '06, and the Valencia Orange No. 55 (FRC002, that one may have been!) was sold at an auction after a coupla years of Grand Am Cup racing.  It's the car that would have won the 2005 Daytona race but the hood came off dropping it to nineteenth for awhile until the hood was found and bolted back on.  It finished second to No. 5.
But I digress...not only is this a competition car that you can buy, it's an inexpensive competition car that you can buy. You can buy eight of them for the price of a new NASCAR Monte Carlo, for instance--although that won't get you a Monte Carlo with the refinement of Jeff Gordon's or Little E's--but it would get you a Monte that could make the starting grid at NASCAR events if you have a decent driver. 
As often happens, this engine may go from track to street in the coming Bullitt or Mach 1 or Boss 302, whichever of these historic names gets selected for the coming 5.0 Mustang.  The FR500C uses the old Cobra SVT 4.6 Quadcammer block with 3.70" barrels siamesed in, heads identical to those in the GT500, and a cam that may be an ex-Lincoln unit.  The intake plenum produces lots of torque but may also produce excessive NOX or CO2 for use in a street engine--look for that plenum to be replaced by a smaller manifold sans plenum from earlier street 'Cammers.  So what you're seeing in today's FR500C is a future street engine using a racing plenum.  This is the way it should be--prove it in racing, then sell it in your vehicles.  I don't know about you, Ro, but the lads and lasses in these forums probably don't have a problem with that...

[r0tor]

for the last time, the GT3 is not legal in the GS class.  p0rsche has begun making GT3 Cup cars taylored to Grand Am rules for the Rolex GT class.   

[Nethead]

r0tor: RoDude! The Nethead here looked up the finishing order of the Daytona race and all the Porsches were identified merely as "Porsche 997s", "Porsche 996s". yada yada yada...NONE were identified as "GT3s"!? Since the "Rules and Regs" section won't open in this browser--it will only save them to a file--I can't read the rules & regs to see whether the GS class allows GT3s.?

Until the Nethead here can establish otherwise, I am going to accept your statement that GT3s aren't allowed in the GS class just like GT500s aren't allowed in the GS class!? I'll have access to a different browser on Monday, and I hope I'll get the chance to check out the R&Rs.? Maybe what I read was incorrect where it said that Porsche will build a GS class vehicle (I'm not gonna say "GS class GT3" here because what I read may have said only? a "GS class 997")--I do recall that it was the GS class and not the GT class, but that may be the article's error:? stating "GS" when they should have stated "GT".? Let's go with you being right about that until we have reason to believe otherwise!

[Nethead]

r0tor:? Today, the Nethead here got to use a better browser and thus could display the Grand American Cup rules & regs.? The listing of certified vehicle models included Porsche 996s, Porsche 997s, and Porsche Targas.? Since the listing shows that certain adjustable parts from GT3s are allowed on these three models, it stands to reason that the GT3 is not certified for competition in the Grand American Cup series (although nowhere did I find it stated that the GT3 is verboten).? Presumably, Porsche could certify a GT3 for the Grand American Cup (as I have said upstream in this thread), but the stipulations that would be placed on the equipment--lead plate weights, punitive gear ratios, intake restrictor plates, exhaust limitations, yada yada yada like the FR500C must accept to be allowed to compete--probably means no one is interested in the hassle when 996s/997s/Targas can use certain GT3 adjustable suspension parts anyway.

Maybe some mag will do a comparo of an FR500C and a 997 GT3 or a 997 GT3 RS, and hopefully the comparo will specifiy identical tires (with allowances for wheel size differences) else certain forum participants will howl that whatever vehicle that lapped whatever track the fastest managed to do so only because of the superior tires of the faster vehicle.? You know the type...
Anyway, the FR500C uses Hoosiers because all Grand American Cup competitors are required to use the Series sponsor's tires.? They're fine tires--but not real sticky so they can last the length of the races on well-set-up cars.? If this proposed comparo takes place, the tires should be those on the Porsche 997 GT3 in appropriate sizes since the FR500C would come with different tires if the Series were to change tire sponsors.

[Nethead]

See the 1-2 Mustang finish at the 2007 Daytona Grand American Cup, as well as the rest of the race, on SPEED Channel, Saturday, March 10th, at 8:00 PM Eastern Time, per www.grandamerican.com.