Saleen PJ Edition laps faster than Parnelli's 1970 Trans Am Champion

[SVT666]

Eh, are you sure?? I am pretty sure that this particular watts link set up is exclusive to the PJ edition.? Of course, I would love a link proving me wrong? .

Sure.? Here you go.? Lakewood makes it and they have a Where to Buy link on their site.

http://www.lakewood-industries.com/ProductDetails.aspx?brandId=5&productID=7747913&majID=900&minID=9011&selection=&minselection=

You can buy it here:

http://www.streetperformance.com/riproductdisplaysp.php?sku=3034

[LonghornTX]

Sure.  Here you go.  Lakewood makes it and they have a Where to Buy link on their site.

http://www.lakewood-industries.com/ProductDetails.aspx?brandId=5&productID=7747913&majID=900&minID=9011&selection=&minselection=

You can buy it here:

http://www.streetperformance.com/riproductdisplaysp.php?sku=3034

That is not the same link that is on the PJ.  This is what is on the PJ:


Infact, of the two aftermarket options currently available, I much prefer the Fays setup over the Lakewood as the Lakewood looks like a rather weak (structurally) system.

[SVT666]

I'm sorry I don't see where the Lakewood looks weak.  The Lakewood has been heralded as a major step up over the stock panhard bar by a couple of tuner magazines that I've read.  I will be seriously looking at it when I buy my car.

[LonghornTX]

I'm sorry I don't see where the Lakewood looks weak.  The Lakewood has been heralded as a major step up over the stock panhard bar by a couple of tuner magazines that I've read.  I will be seriously looking at it when I buy my car.

One thing, you gotta realize tuner magazines get PAYED to review those products (especially the mustang rags), thus they definately have a positive incentive to give them a good review.  And, this isn't meant to say that the Lakewood unit doesn't perform well, it probably does.  But, I would be worried about the long-term durability of the product under anything more than drag racing conditions considering U-bolts anchor most of the lateral forces that would be transmitted to that rear end.  Again, this is just my opinion, but if you do some reading on the boards (themustangsource and modularfords are my two favorites), you will find most share my opinion on this subject.  However, I will say that, if you never plan on autoXing or open tracking your car, you could probably get away with the lakewood unit.

I prefer the Fays2 setup for it's added ruggedness:

[SVT666]

One thing, you gotta realize tuner magazines get PAYED to review those products (especially the mustang rags), thus they definately have a positive incentive to give them a good review.? And, this isn't meant to say that the Lakewood unit doesn't perform well, it probably does.? But, I would be worried about the long-term durability of the product under anything more than drag racing conditions considering U-bolts anchor most of the lateral forces that would be transmitted to that rear end.? Again, this is just my opinion, but if you do some reading on the boards (themustangsource and modularfords are my two favorites), you will find most share my opinion on this subject.? However, I will say that, if you never plan on autoXing or open tracking your car, you could probably get away with the lakewood unit.

I prefer the Fays2 setup for it's added ruggedness:

The most I plan on doing is taking it to the strip a couple times a year, otherwise it will be daily street driven for which the stock panhard rod is definitely sufficient.  For me, lowering springs and caster/camber plates will be the only suspension mods I will be making for a while.  The rest of the modification money will be going into horsepower since we don't have any twisty highways around here.

[LonghornTX]

The most I plan on doing is taking it to the strip a couple times a year, otherwise it will be daily street driven for which the stock panhard rod is definitely sufficient.  For me, lowering springs and caster/camber plates will be the only suspension mods I will be making for a while.  The rest of the modification money will be going into horsepower since we don't have any twisty highways around here.

Then the Lakewood would probably fufill all your needs and more.  If I end up buying a S-197, this is definately one of the first things I will probably do....

[Nethead]

HEMI666 and LonghornTX:? First and foremost, get better engine & transmission mounts for your S197s--those liquid-filled stocker doughnuts make for a vibration-free, quiet ride--but they seriously suck for serious performance applications--they also cause any shifter problems you've ever read about in S197s (some have 'em, but most don't) since they allow the engine/transmission to rock back and forth when accelerating.? Step two is to get an aftermarket shifter that mounts solely to the transmission.? These are two MUST-DO items--numerous aftermarket suppliers sell shifter kits that mount directly to the transmission (Ford might sell a Hurst shifter kit thru the FRPP catalog), and the FRPP catalog may have performance engine mounts as well.? Multimatic Motorsports probably sells the same ones that come in FR500Cs--which aren't entirely solid but should do the trick.  But make sure they'll work for the SOHC 4.6 as they do for the DOHC 5.0...

[Raza]

HEMI666 and LonghornTX:  First and foremost, get better engine & transmission mounts for your S197s--those liquid-filled stocker doughnuts make for a vibration-free, quiet ride--but they seriously suck for serious performance applications--they also cause any shifter problems you've ever read about in S197s (some have 'em, but most don't) since they allow the engine/transmission to rock back and forth when accelerating.  Step two is to get an aftermarket shifter that mounts solely to the transmission.  These are two MUST-DO items--numerous aftermarket suppliers sell shifter kits that mount directly to the transmission (Ford might sell a Hurst shifter kit thru the FRPP catalog), and the FRPP catalog may have performance engine mounts as well.  Multimatic Motorsports probably sells the same ones that come in FR500Cs--which aren't entirely solid but should do the trick.  But make sure they'll work for the SOHC 4.6 as they do for the DOHC 5.0...

Maybe that's why the stick bounced out of third gear on the one I drove....

[LonghornTX]

HEMI666 and LonghornTX:  First and foremost, get better engine & transmission mounts for your S197s--those liquid-filled stocker doughnuts make for a vibration-free, quiet ride--but they seriously suck for serious performance applications--they also cause any shifter problems you've ever read about in S197s (some have 'em, but most don't) since they allow the engine/transmission to rock back and forth when accelerating.  Step two is to get an aftermarket shifter that mounts solely to the transmission.  These are two MUST-DO items--numerous aftermarket suppliers sell shifter kits that mount directly to the transmission (Ford might sell a Hurst shifter kit thru the FRPP catalog), and the FRPP catalog may have performance engine mounts as well.  Multimatic Motorsports probably sells the same ones that come in FR500Cs--which aren't entirely solid but should do the trick.  But make sure they'll work for the SOHC 4.6 as they do for the DOHC 5.0...

Eh, I am not going to mess with the mounts.  I would rather buy any one of the braces available on the market that essentially does the same thing without all the NVH.  Also, I was not aware of a single readily available aftermarket shifter that mounts directly on the transmission, maybe you could point me to where you found that.  I know for a fact that the Hurst, Pro 5.0, and MGW (my favorite) do not.

[LonghornTX]

Maybe that's why the stick bounced out of third gear on the one I drove....

Did you drive a used or new model?  Even with the shitty mounts and shifter design, if the car is engaged in gear, it should NOT pop out of gear....

[Raza]

Did you drive a used or new model?  Even with the shitty mounts and shifter design, if the car is engaged in gear, it should NOT pop out of gear....

New.  The car was warm, and I was making a hard shift from 2nd to 3rd, and the stick went halfway into the slot and then bounced back into neutral. 

[Nethead]

Raza:  If the transmission was not damaged before you drove it, then it's ten-to-one odds that engine/transmission rock caused by the liquid-filled engine/transmission mounts were the culprit.  The stock shifter mounts to the body/frame, but those pussy doughnuts allow the engine-transmission to rock under hard acceleration.  When the engine-transmission rocks, it pulls on the shifter cable and that can yank the transmission out of gear.

LonghornTX:  I believe I read last night that there is a Hurst kit that bolts/mounts entirely to the transmission.  I'm sure there are others--dragmags are the best sources for shifter kits, and one or more of the Mustang-specific dragmags may have done a shifter-kit comparo by now.

I have The Discovery Channel's DVD on the early development of the FR500C by Multimatic Motorsports ("Mustang--Back to the Track"), and that video illustrates graphically why you'll never find engine/transmission mounts that are too rigid.  This DVD precedes the 2005 Daytona Grand American Cup race by a good bit, so the FR500C had even more development (especially the intake manifold and plenum) than shown on the DVD by the time of that race--but the problems caused by the liquid-filled engine mounts had already occurred and had already been solved with solid mounts that contained a thin cushion--probably polyurethane (no details).  It's an informative DVD, and is a must for anyone with an S197 that may someday be taken beyond the OEM hardware and software.

[LonghornTX]

Raza:  If the transmission was not damaged before you drove it, then it's ten-to-one odds that engine/transmission rock caused by the liquid-filled engine/transmission mounts were the culprit.  The stock shifter mounts to the body/frame, but those pussy doughnuts allow the engine-transmission to rock under hard acceleration.  When the engine-transmission rocks, it pulls on the shifter cable and that can yank the transmission out of gear.

LonghornTX:  I believe I read last night that there is a Hurst kit that bolts/mounts entirely to the transmission.  I'm sure there are others--dragmags are the best sources for shifter kits, and one or more of the Mustang-specific dragmags may have done a shifter-kit comparo by now.

I have The Discovery Channel's DVD on the early development of the FR500C by Multimatic Motorsports ("Mustang--Back to the Track"), and that video illustrates graphically why you'll never find engine/transmission mounts that are too rigid.  This DVD precedes the 2005 Daytona Grand American Cup race by a good bit, so the FR500C had even more development (especially the intake manifold and plenum) than shown on the DVD by the time of that race--but the problems caused by the liquid-filled engine mounts had already occurred and had already been solved with solid mounts that contained a thin cushion--probably polyurethane (no details).  It's an informative DVD, and is a must for anyone with an S197 that may someday be taken beyond the OEM hardware and software.

Interesting, thanks for the recomendation 

[SVT666]

Raza:? If the transmission was not damaged before you drove it, then it's ten-to-one odds that engine/transmission rock caused by the liquid-filled engine/transmission mounts were the culprit.? The stock shifter mounts to the body/frame, but those pussy doughnuts allow the engine-transmission to rock under hard acceleration.? When the engine-transmission rocks, it pulls on the shifter cable and that can yank the transmission out of gear.

If he was shifting really fast, it might also be that he was letting the clutch too soon.  I've had that happen before.

LonghornTX:? I believe I read last night that there is a Hurst kit that bolts/mounts entirely to the transmission.? I'm sure there are others--dragmags are the best sources for shifter kits, and one or more of the Mustang-specific dragmags may have done a shifter-kit comparo by now.

I'm pretty sure the Hurst does (my first choice) and I think the Steeda Tri-Ax does as well (my second choice).

[Lebowski]

--the GTO and Charger SRT8 are two that come immediately to mind--

The GTO is priced more inline w/ a regular Mustang GT and costs HALF as much as this car, and the SRT-8 is a four door sedan.

I too fail to see why we're supposed to be impressed.

[Lebowski]

And that 1 minute, 3.191 seconds lap was in a street-legal, California emissions-legal, air-conditioned, radio/CD player equipped vehicle on DOT-approved tires.?

Hmm, I seem to be having a feeling of deja-vu.

Nethead, you've already proven yourself to be an idiot on these forums multiple times.  While you're at it, you may as well prove yourself also a hypocrite and tell us how important tires are.

[Soup DeVille]

Hmm, I seem to be having a feeling of deja-vu.

Nethead, you've already proven yourself to be an idiot on these forums multiple times.? While you're at it, you may as well prove yourself also a hypocrite and tell us how important tires are.

Are you saying that tires are unimportant?

[Lebowski]

Are you saying that tires are unimportant?

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying 

[Nethead]

Lebowski: Good to hear from you again, LebDude!? The Nethead here brought up the GTO and the SRT8 Charger only because the Saleen PJ was two seconds quicker around the Streets of Willow (but not on the same day and probably not under the same temperature and atmospheric conditions) than? the GT500, which waaayyy outhandled both of those other two vehicles in a Motor Trend comparo last year.? These three cars are probably the most similar cars to the Saleen PJ--affordable, four-passenger, sheetmetal, front-engined V8s with RWD--that anyone could find recent data about.? The GT500 is very similar to the Saleen PJ, as even you would agree.? The other two are different--especially the SRT8 Charger--but they claim to be players in this market so they gotta walk the walk if they're gonna talk the talk.? I did find a coupla times around the Streets of Willow by some other vehicles (you did read all the postings in this thread didn't you?)--a Kawasaki motorcycle and a Porsche 911--and their times are upstream.

Tires--it proves my earlier point in that Z06 vs GT3 German article in which ChrisV tried to have us believe that it was strictly tires that allowed a GT3 to keep up with a Z06 on a roadracing circuit.? Actually, the smart ones here know it was the 100 extra horsepower that allowed the Z06 to keep up with a GT3 on a roadracing circuit.? The Porsche had better tires, but the tires on the Z06 offset this by having a larger footprint.? We had insufficient info to determine whether this was a full offset or a partial offset, but there's not much we can do about that...probably it was a wash--better dry weather compound tires versus wider footprint tires...
This is an even more severe situation--the '70 Boss 302 had Goodyear racing tires, weighed some hundreds of pounds less, and had 80 horsepower on the Saleen PJ.? Yet the Saleen PJ got around the track quicker, even at the hands of The Master who knows how to get every last ounce out of that '70 Boss 302 that he won the '70 Trans Am championship in--that was not a replica of Parnelli's '70 Boss 302, but THE GENUINE ITEM built by Bud Moore's racecar shop in Spartanburg, SC thirty-eight years ago!? The Saleen PJ did just what the Porsche GT3 did--what it lacked in power it made up for in handling.? Tires again were probably a wash--but I pointed out that the Saleen PJ had DOT-approved street tires in case ChrisV was reading the thread and wanted to howl that the Saleen PJ won only because it had better tires than the Trans Am champion--it decidedly did not!

There's no hypocrisy here on MY part, but I'm not so sure about yours...
BTW, point out anything I've said in these threads that's untrue--there is a correction on everything I've ever posted that I found to be wrong.

This is your chance to prove who's the idiot here, LebDude!? Show us what you got...

[Lebowski]

This is your chance to prove who's the idiot here, LebDude!? Show us what you got...

Gladly ...

the '70 Boss 302 had Goodyear racing tires, weighed some hundreds of pounds less, and had 80 horsepower on the Saleen PJ.

Racing tires using 1970 technology (not much of an advantage, IMO).? And as has already been established in this thread, an 80 hp advantage using 1970 SAE gross measurement standards.? On an apples to apples basis, any hp advantage would likely be slim to none.

The other two are different--especially the SRT8 Charger--but they claim to be players in this market

This market?? What exactly is "this" market?? The $60k+ market?? No, Nethead, I don't think either of them claim to be players in the same market as the PJ.? If they did, they'd be priced at $60k, no?

Actually, the smart ones here know it was the 100 extra horsepower that allowed the Z06 to keep up with a GT3 on a roadracing circuit.? The Porsche had better tires, but the tires on the Z06 offset this by having a larger footprint.

Nobody ever denied the ZO6 had a hp advantage.  All people said was the GT3 had better tires, and that said tires gave it a traction advantage.  You (unsuccessfully) argued the tired difference was insignificant, that tires make no difference.  Yet in this thread, you mention tires tire tires constantly as an advantage for the '70 Boss (until your most recent post, in which you suddenly change your story and claim tires are a lack of advantage for the PJ rather than an advantage for the Boss).  Get your story straight, hypocrite.

but I pointed out that the Saleen PJ had DOT-approved street tires in case r0tor was reading the thread and wanted to howl that the Saleen PJ won only because it had better tires than the Trans Am champion--it decidedly did not!

I'm calling bullshit.? Your implication on pg1 of this thread seems pretty clear that you are arguing that the '70 model had superior tires, not that the tires were equal.? To me it reads that you are saying the PJ keeps up despite its tires, not the other way around.? If that's not the way you meant it, perhaps you should take a writing class (maybe the same class will teach you how to break your writing into paragraphs) so you can learn to write what you mean.?

Hell, read the second block I quoted above, "the '70 Boss 302 had Goodyear racing tires," clearly you are implying the advantage in terms of tires lies with the '70 Boss.? Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself here.?

[Soup DeVille]

I think it might be foolhardy to assume that the phrase "Goodyear racing rubber, just like 36 years ago" implies that the Trans-Am car was rolling around on 36 year old tires, or even that the tires it was sitting on were just like the one from 36 years ago.

No, unless they were transported here in a time machine, any 36 year old tires would be so dry-rotted as to be completely useless, and who would go through the trouble of recreating an outdated rubber compound just for this test?

No, I think its safe to assume that the Goodyear racing rubbers underneath that car were new tires from Goodyear.

[Nethead]

Lebowski:? Thank you for the prompt response, LebDude!? I ain't claiming that the '70 Boss 302 had tires that gave it a huge advantage--but having dry-conditions soft-compound near-slicks certainly means it had at least the traction equal of the DOT-legal street tires on the Saleen PJ since the track was dry on the day they tested--so those like ChrisV can't howl it was the Saleen PJ's tires that did the deed.? Too bad they didn't switch tires between the two and turn some more laps.? But they didn't.? If it weren't for ChrisV, we wouldn't havta go to these lengths to point out that the slower vehicle had tires that were at least the equal of the tires on the faster vehicle.? ?

I'll wager any dyno in the country will find 480 horsepower in that '70 Boss 302, by methods used then or by methods used today.? Parnelli Jones would know, and he hasn't disputed the 480 HP figure.? No offense, LebDude, but his cred beats your cred like a full house beats two pairs...this ain't a slap at you--the Nethead here would agree with Parnelli Jones even if I was the one disputing the horsepower of the '70 Boss 302...?

This market?? V8 engined, RWD, sheetmetal, four-passenger, high-performance cars--some loosely refer to this market as "musclecars", others loosely refer to this market as "ponycars"--the GTO and the SRT8 maintain that they are part of this market, or I should say "was a part of this market" for the twice-extinct GTO.  The Monte Carlo SS pretends to be a part of this market, but that's a bad, bad joke...The Saleen PJ and the twenty or twenty-one other Mustang tuner car manufacturers all maintain that they have valid entries in this market, too.? It is not a market defined by a price tag--the 900 HP twin turbo Pure Performance Products Shadrach Mustang lists for $175,000 yet it is part of this market, too.? The upcoming Challenger and Camaro will maintain that they are part of this market, too, and that will be correct.? If Callaway eventually markets a tuner Camaro for umpty-thousand dollars, it will be a part of this market, too.? Some people will pay for more, but it's their money.? The fact that you or I ain't got that kinda money doesn't mean these expensive tuner cars are therefore excluded from inclusion within this market.? It wasn't that way in 1967 and it ain't that way in 2007.? A Pontiac Solstice is a sportscar just the same as the Viper Venom 1000, even though there is a decided difference in the performance capabilities of the two.? Others know what I'm sayin' here, and you do too--and you have all along, I'm sure.

Nothing you've pointed out that I've posted is untrue--but clarity does suffer when you have to get down to a tedious level of explanation so that we don't waste the www on those who try to nitpick a verified outcome into representing something it really doesn't.? The GT3 lapped quicker than that Z06, and it wasn't just because of the tires.? The Saleen PJ lapped quicker than that '70 Boss 302 and it wasn't just because of the tires.? These are facts, and I don't dispute them.? But I understand why these results are the results that they are in both cases.? As they said when I was in the Army: "You may not like the way it is a whole bunch, but that is still the way it is..."? ?

[LonghornTX]

Hmm, I seem to be having a feeling of deja-vu.

Nethead, you've already proven yourself to be an idiot on these forums multiple times.? While you're at it, you may as well prove yourself also a hypocrite and tell us how important tires are.

Look, I don't want to get in the middle of anything personal you two might have between yall, but really, is the above statement necessary?? I mean, you can have your own personal opinion on Nethead, but, I think it would be unfair to dismiss the great wealth of info he brings to the table here.? If you disagee with him, fine, but there is certainly no need to call him an idiot.? Let us all act like adults and keep this very informative and useful forum from turning into another C&D? .

Oh, and out of personal curiosity, I would love to know why you think tires are unimportant.

[Nethead]

LonghornTX: Thank you for the support, LongDude, but let LebDude rant and rave and call others names all he wants.? It's a forum, after all!? He'll be wiser, too, when he's the Nethead here's age!? It takes time to become omniscient, and even I wasn't omniscient at his tender age!? No, really, I wasn't!

[LonghornTX]

LonghornTX: Thank you for the support, LongDude, but let LebDude rant and rave and call others names all he wants.? It's a forum, after all!? He'll be wiser, too, when he's the Nethead here's age!? It takes time to be omniscient, and even I wasn't omniscient at his tender age!? No, really, I wasn't!

No problem, but really, my comment was out of more selfish reasons.  I don't want to see personal vendettas ruin the atmosphere of this place like it did at "the other place".....

[SVT666]

I gotta say that I agree with Nethead, which is something I only do about half the time.  I would have to believe the racing tires on the 1970 car were new racing slicks considering any 36 year old tire would be absolutely useless and downright dangerous to put on any car.  Correct me if I'm wrong but dyno testing a racing engine 36 years ago was done without all the unnecesary accesories on the engine right?  Those same unnecesary accesories that are not found on a racing engine right?  Therefore the 480 hp number is probably fairly accurate.  Maybe not perfectly accurate, but probably pretty close.  Until we actually see a side by side dyno test of both cars we'll never know. 

I say they should stick a set of racing slicks on the PJ edition and then see how badly the old car gets spanked.

[Lebowski]

I think it might be foolhardy to assume that the phrase "Goodyear racing rubber, just like 36 years ago" implies that the Trans-Am car was rolling around on 36 year old tires, or even that the tires it was sitting on were just like the one from 36 years ago.

No, unless they were transported here in a time machine, any 36 year old tires would be so dry-rotted as to be completely useless, and who would go through the trouble of recreating an outdated rubber compound just for this test?

No, I think its safe to assume that the Goodyear racing rubbers underneath that car were new tires from Goodyear.

Ah, Duh me - I thought they were talkign about beating a 30-y/o time as well (didn't realize they were tested on same day). 

[Lebowski]

Look, I don't want to get in the middle of anything personal you two might have between yall, but really, is the above statement necessary?? I mean, you can have your own personal opinion on Nethead, but, I think it would be unfair to dismiss the great wealth of info he brings to the table here.? If you disagee with him, fine, but there is certainly no need to call him an idiot.? Let us all act like adults and keep this very informative and useful forum from turning into another C&D? .

Oh, and out of personal curiosity, I would love to know why you think tires are unimportant.

Ok, I should not have called him an idiot, but I reiterate my opinion that he's a hypocrite.

And I do think tires are important, I was being sarcastic.  In a different thread, nethead argued until he was blue in the face that tires are essentially negligible around a track.  Then in this thread, he can't stop mentioning that the Boss had better tires.  That (among other things) makes him a hypocite, IMO.

[SVT666]

In the other thread he was arguing that the difference between the tires in question were negligible because the tires that were considered "inferior" had a larger contact patch.? The difference between DOT street legal tires and racing slicks is huge.

[ChrisV]

In the other thread he was arguing that the difference between the tires in question were negligible because the tires that were considered "inferior" had a larger contact patch.  The difference between DOT street legal tires and racing slicks is huge.

So is the difference between DOT semi slicks and regular run flats. Contact patch doesn't matter as much as compound, and I will prove that any time anyone wants to come to the track with me. Not a drag strip but something with corners, where lateral grip and control is important.

Having said that, I AM thoroughly impressed with the performance of the PJ Mustang vs the BOSS racer. Shows how far we've come to make a street legal car with DD capability run as hard as what race cars were capable of in the day. Hell, with modern compound slicks on it, the BOSS is probably faster now than it was, as well. It really means something when a street car is faster than the race car it pays tribute to.