C&D tests full-size trucks

[ifcar]

The second generation Ram debuted in 2003. No automaker, especially a domestic one, is going to replace a model after only three years.

As such, the Ram is still in its second generation. If it were an all-new truck, it'd be into its fourth generation.

The current Ram is a thoroughly re-worked mid-model update.

2002, not 2003. And even counting the 06 as part of the 02's generation, there are three Ram generations.

[GoCougs]

My bad on the 2002 vs. 2003.

Having been an owner of two of them,  the '72 - '92 Dodge truck model years were all of the same generation.

[ifcar]

My bad on the 2002 vs. 2003.

Having been an owner of two of them,  the '72 - '92 Dodge truck model years were all of the same generation.

Three generations, just going by trucks called Ram

1st: 81-93
2nd: 94-01
3rd: 02-present

[SJ_GTI]

"All-new" means that everything is new, not that a things have been changed here and there.

Using that definition there has never been an all-new Camry, Accord, Impala, etc....

I think when car-makers make an "all-new" claim the level of "all-new" is really "substanially new." I am not a BMW engineer, but I seriously doubt the E90 3-series is really "all-new" compared to the E46. Its probably somewhere between 50-75% new, like most new models.

[ifcar]

If they don't even change the exterior beyond a front-end facelift, or the interior beyond the styling, or the engines at all, it certainly isn't "all new" whatever other changes are. Even if we accept 50% change as the standard (judged based on what?) I doubt the Ram would make the cut.

[SJ_GTI]

If they don't even change the exterior beyond a front-end facelift, or the interior beyond the styling, or the engines at all, it certainly isn't "all new" whatever other changes are. Even if we accept 50% change as the standard (judged based on what?) I doubt the Ram would make the cut.

So cars have to have all-new powertrains to be new?

Was the E60 5-series new when it debuted with almost an entirely carried over engine lineup?

I think you answered your own question, and proved Hemi right. You or I can't possibly know if something is really all-new or not. Just because two companents looks like they are similar doesn't mean they are.

[ifcar]

You can tell that the exterior is unchanged except for a front end restyling. You can tell that the interior is restyled but fundamentally unchanged. You can tell that the engines are carry-overs. Dodge has not claimed to have given it a complete under-the-skin do-over or they would have said so rather than listing the various things that were changed.

Each one of those things is not decisive, but the combination is.

What I meant with the question of what the percent of change means is not how those uninvolved with the design would know what exact changes were made, but how to judge the percent changed. Is it number of parts? Number of more general systems? Or something else?

[SVT666]

Just because the body looks like it didn't change much doesn't mean it's a mid model update.  The frame and suspension are all new, and so is the dash and all interior panels.  Using your definition the 1994 Mustang was not all-new even though it is considered all new.  There has also never been an all new Explorer either I guess. 

[ifcar]

Just because the body looks like it didn't change much doesn't mean it's a mid model update.  The frame and suspension are all new, and so is the dash and all interior panels.  Using your definition the 1994 Mustang was not all-new even though it is considered all new.  There has also never been an all new Explorer either I guess. 

Frame and FRONT suspension are new. Appearance pieces of the interior are restyled, but the interior is largely carry-over.

I'm just less inclined to call any redesign "all new". Was the 2000 or 2008 Taurus all-new, or the 2004 Freestar, or the 2006 Explorer, or the or the 2005 or 2008 Focus? (Don't mean to pick on Ford, but they do this frequently.)

I expect the 2008 F-150 and Titan updates will be far more comparable to the 2006 Ram than were the 2007 Silverado/Sierra and Tundra.

[VetteZ06]

When I think of "brand new," I think of something like the new Silverado versus the old Silverado, or the new Mustang versus the old (ancient?) Mustang. The Ram may have received some pretty thorough updating, but I really don't consider it to be "brand new" by any means.

I thought it was pretty much an accepted fact that it went through an MCE (mid-cycle enhancement).

[SVT666]

So you're saying that there was no all-new Mustang from 1979 until 2005?  Whatever.

[Soup DeVille]

So you're saying that there was no all-new Mustang from 1979 until 2005?? Whatever.

Nope- in fact there has never been an all-new vehicle since Og of the forest people first sliced a tree trunk thin enough for him to push a stick through the middle of it and roll down a hill while balancing on the stick.

[TBR]

If they have to boast about the front suspension being completely new, I'll assume the rear isn't. The dash may be restyled, but the fundamentals of the interior are unchanged (the seats and the components that you can't see, like HVAC). They changed the front-end styling, didn't touch the rest.

The engines are carry-overs. The exterior has a mild facelift. The interior is restyled, but not really changed. There are modifications under the skin, but not even everything there is fully new.

"All-new" means that everything is new, not that a things have been changed here and there.

Then there are very few all new cars. Just for an example, the '05 Lexus GS had carried over engines so I guess it wasn't really new either.

[TBR]

Nope- in fact there has never been an all-new vehicle since Og of the forest people first sliced a tree trunk thin enough for him to push a stick through the middle of it and roll down a hill while balancing on the stick.

Not an all new Ford anyway.

[ifcar]

So you're saying that there was no all-new Mustang from 1979 until 2005?  Whatever.

They were all on the Fox platform, were they not?

[ifcar]

Then there are very few all new cars. Just for an example, the '05 Lexus GS had carried over engines so I guess it wasn't really new either.

As I said: "Each one of those things [that I listed] is not decisive, but the combination is."

[SVT666]

They were all on the Fox platform, were they not?

The 94-2004 cars were on the SN95 platform...a thouroughly reworked Fox platform.

[SVT666]

As I said: "Each one of those things [that I listed] is not decisive, but the combination is."

So I guess if the body doesn't change very much but the most important parts do (frame and suspension) then it's not a new truck because it still looks the same.

[ifcar]

So I guess if the body doesn't change very much but the most important parts do (frame and suspension) then it's not a new truck because it still looks the same.

It's "revised" because so much wasn't changed.

[J86]

You guys have an uncanny ability to argue semantics for an absolutely obscene amount of time...

[FordSVT]

Overall those are good rankings by C&D.? After having recently driven the top three, and driving the F150 a while ago, that is how I would rank them too.? The Tundra has great specs and great power, and looks to be the winner on paper, but for some reason it all just doesn't come together as well as the Silverado.? The Titan is also a great truck, and was probably the best half-ton on the road since it's introduction - but nobody seemed to notice.? The F-150 is to trucks what the Camry is to cars - always middle of the pack to last of the pack in comparos, competent in all areas but not the best in anything - but always the best seller (and always MotorTrends ____ of the year).?

When the current F-150 debuted it was easily the best truck on the market.

The new F-150 comes out next year, it will be again. Add more power, set the standard for styling standard (again) and the F-150 will be OK. The full-size pick up truck market is relatively small if you're counting models, and there's almost always a new truck coming out duing any given year.

The Nissan is usualy an afterthought because it comes in so few flavours: two cab styles, one engine and transmission.  It's primarily a "driver's" truck with a quick 0-60 time and decent handling, so it's no surprise C&D thinks so highly of it. Shitty, crap interior though, and they had a major problem with the rear-ends overheating when towing. Don't know if they fixed that or not.
-FordSVT-

[TBR]

As I said: "Each one of those things [that I listed] is not decisive, but the combination is."

Didn't see that there was a second page until I had already replied.

[TBR]

When the current F-150 debuted it was easily the best truck on the market.

The new F-150 comes out next year, it will be again. Add more power, set the standard for styling standard (again) and the F-150 will be OK. The full-size pick up truck market is relatively small if you're counting models, and there's almost always a new truck coming out duing any given year.

The Nissan is usualy an afterthought because it comes in so few flavours: two cab styles, one engine and transmission.  It's primarily a "driver's" truck with a quick 0-60 time and decent handling, so it's no surprise C&D thinks so highly of it. Shitty, crap interior though, and they had a major problem with the rear-ends overheating when towing. Don't know if they fixed that or not.
-FordSVT-

Nissan did the smart thing with the cab and bed configurations, they needed to minimilize their investment so they went for the high profit, high volume configurations. I suspect we will see more options for the redesign.

Additionally, the Titan's interior is not crappy. No it is not of the same quality as that of the F-150, but up until 2007 it was towards the head of the pack for quality and is still one of the best ergonomically. The 2008 model should have both an improved interior and at least one extra configuration (crew cab "long" bed), I just hope they put a better diff in (I admit that is a problem).

[565]

5th place: Ford F-150 FX4 4X4 Supercrew - 172 points
heavy understeer when the going gets brisk.

3rd place: Toyota Tundra 4X4 Double Cab - 193 points
intrusive stability control, understeer when you push.

Haha only C&D could test a bunch of fullsize trucks and complain about understeer and intrusive stability control at the limit.

I'm surprised how well Titan did.  I'm also surprised how far down the F150 fell, considering it was on C&D's 10 best.

[ifcar]

I'm also surprised how far down the F150 fell, considering it was on C&D's 10 best.

The 5Best truck criteria look at the entire line, and the F-150 has a wide range of versions. However, a comparison test only looks at the one version. A truck with one version could win a comparison test against comparable vehicles, but not win the overall Best Truck award. And the Silverado knocked the F-150 off of 5Best for 2007.

[VetteZ06]

They did talk a lot about driving characteristics, but each one of these trucks is very capable if you're looking to tow/haul/do other truck stuff.

I'm anxious to see if the Silverado's upcoming 6-speed tranny will eliminate one of the primary complaints about GM's new trucks.

In addition, Motor Trend also did a truck comparison this month between the Silverado and Tundra. The Chevy came out on top. I don't think it was equipped with the 6.0-liter V-8, either.

[the Teuton]

Going back on the generation thing, did you know that we're on the third gen Viper right now?  1992-95 was the first one, then when the GTS came out in 1996, they reworked so much of the car that it actually wasn't really that close to the original model.  Then Hau Tai Tang's redesign in 2003 was the third gen, and finally, the 2008 will be the 4th gen, believe it or not.

Back on topic, the Chevy was a Vortec 6000, the Ram had the Hemi, the Ford was the 5.4 liter V8, the Nissan was the 5.6 and the Toyota was the 5.7 liter model.

[sandertheshark]

When C&D gives such props to a Chevy truck, that gets my attention.

[S204STi]

They did talk a lot about driving characteristics, but each one of these trucks is very capable if you're looking to tow/haul/do other truck stuff.

I'm anxious to see if the Silverado's upcoming 6-speed tranny will eliminate one of the primary complaints about GM's new trucks.

In addition, Motor Trend also did a truck comparison this month between the Silverado and Tundra. The Chevy came out on top. I don't think it was equipped with the 6.0-liter V-8, either.

Let your heart be at ease, the 6spd is a wonderful unit.

[TBR]

Roy, are Titan's still having a lot of diff problems?