Ford screws Hertz! Ha Ha!

[TheIntrepid]

Nethead what is your deal?

[ChrisV]

Those who need further proof of the desirability of manual transmissions over automatic transmissions need only compose a single-spaced list of all the roadracing wins by vehicles equipped with automatic transmissions on 8.5" X 11" paper.  Then do the same for all the roadracing wins by vehicles equipped with manual transmissions.  Weigh the two resulting stacks of paper. 

I've already gone over the reasons. Early on, there were only manuals. When automatics were started, sports car racing ahd already been going on strong, and the automatics were heavy. Planetary gearsets, while strong, were HARD to swap out at the track for a different ratio, and there simply weren't any spare ratios to go around. With a manual, a manufacturer could make one gearbox outside with multiple gearsets inside to be matched perfectly to any engine in any car on any track, with different ratios for shorter tracks, longer tracks, flat tracks, hilly tracks, different ratios for high revving engines, low revving engines, etc. One case with multiple gearsets, and each team could have multiple gearsets available to them to swap out during practice to get the optimum setup for their particular car at that particular track. Extremely hard to do with planetary gearsets in the typical automatic.

Had nothing to do, NOTHING to do with the ability to shift them themselves.

But since sports cars used manual transmissions for those reasons, the average semi-enthusiast decided that manuals were the only way to drive a car around corners, and that automatics were, well, automatically bad for street cars, too.

[Nethead]

Nethead what is your deal?

It was time to crimp a juicy turd in R-inge's hat.

[TheIntrepid]

[SVT666]

Cars that are used strictly on the street and are very rarely ever driven hard, an automatic is probably prefereable for most people.  But if you want as much control over a car as possible, then a manual tranny is the way to go.

[Nethead]

I've already gone over the reasons. Early on, there were only manuals. When automatics were started, sports car racing ahd already been going on strong, and the automatics were heavy. Planetary gearsets, while strong, were HARD to swap out at the track for a different ratio, and there simply weren't any spare ratios to go around. With a manual, a manufacturer could make one gearbox outside with multiple gearsets inside to be matched perfectly to any engine in any car on any track, with different ratios for shorter tracks, longer tracks, flat tracks, hilly tracks, different ratios for high revving engines, low revving engines, etc. One case with multiple gearsets, and each team could have multiple gearsets available to them to swap out during practice to get the optimum setup for their particular car at that particular track. Extremely hard to do with planetary gearsets in the typical automatic.

Had nothing to do, NOTHING to do with the ability to shift them themselves.

But since sports cars used manual transmissions for those reasons, the average semi-enthusiast decided that manuals were the only way to drive a car around corners, and that automatics were, well, automatically bad for street cars, too.

ChrisV:? Excellent and informative reply, ChrisDude!? All you say is true!? But a manual is still the transmission of choice for those who want to have the greatest chance of winning roadraces.? And the transmission of choice for those who want to get the most out of the capabilities of the vehicles they drive on the streets.

Pick any roadracing circuit and provide two identical vehicles--except one will have a four, five, or six-speed automatic and the other will have a manual with the same number of gears (and each may have final drive ratios suited to their respective transmissions)--and let a competent driver who's familiar with the circuit take whatever warm-up laps he/she needs.? Then let the driver take twenty laps in each vehicle as fast as they're willing to push in each.? Record the time it took to complete twenty fast laps in the automatic-equipped vehicle and then record the time it took to complete twenty fast laps in the manual-equipped vehicle.?

Assuming no flats nor variations in track conditions (rain, perhaps), I'll bet that the time it took to turn twenty laps was less in the vehicle equipped with the manual transmission.? What say you??

Now, this isn't to say that an automatic-equipped vehicle can't complete twenty laps around a roadracing circuit.? Sure it can!? But if you want to complete those twenty laps in less time, take the manual-equipped vehicle.? One's fine, the other's better.? If you never push your vehicle, or you can't really get the hang of shifting and downshifting, then an automatic is probably capable of shifting better than you are capable of driving anyway so it's a moot issue...

[Soup DeVille]

ChrisV:? Excellent and informative reply, ChrisDude!? All you say is true!? But a manual is still the transmission of choice for those who want to have the greatest chance of winning roadraces.? And the transmission of choice for those who want to get the most out of the capabilities of the vehicles they drive on the streets.

Pick any roadracing circuit and provide two identical vehicles--except one will have a four, five, or six-speed automatic and the other will have a manual with the same number of gears (and each may have final drive ratios suited to their respective transmissions)--and let a competent driver who's familiar with the circuit take whatever warm-up laps he/she needs.? Then let the driver take twenty laps in each vehicle as fast as they're willing to push in each.? Record the time it took to complete twenty fast laps in the automatic-equipped vehicle and then record the time it took to complete twenty fast laps in the manual-equipped vehicle.?

Assuming no flats nor variations in track conditions (rain, perhaps), I'll bet that the time it took to turn twenty laps was less in the vehicle equipped with the manual transmission.? What say you??

Now, this isn't to say that an automatic-equipped vehicle can't complete twenty laps around a roadracing circuit.? Sure it can!? But if you want to complete those twenty laps in less time, take the manual-equipped vehicle.? One's fine, the other's better.? If you never push your vehicle, or you can't really get the hang of shifting and downshifting, then an automatic is probably capable of shifting better than you are capable of driving anyway so it's a moot issue...

As little as roadracing has to do with street cars, I'll still bite on this argument with one counterpoint: In the roadracing classes that allow such transmissions, the gearshifting has been computerized. Formula One drivers have not had a clutch pedal for many years now. These transmissions are netiehr standard manuals nor standard automatics, but as they do shift their own gears, can be considered to be more automatic than manual, can they not?

[SVT666]

As little as roadracing has to do with street cars, I'll still bite on this argument with one counterpoint: In the roadracing classes that allow such transmissions, the gearshifting has been computerized. Formula One drivers have not had a clutch pedal for many years now. These transmissions are netiehr standard manuals nor standard automatics, but as they do shift their own gears, can be considered to be more automatic than manual, can they not?

Champ Car driver's shif thteir own gears.  I think IRL does too.  Don't rally cars and SCCA all row their own gears too?  The McLaren F1 finished 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th overall in the 24 hours of Lemans with the drivers all shifting their own gears. 

[Soup DeVille]

Champ Car driver's shif thteir own gears.? I think IRL does too.? Don't rally cars and SCCA all row their own gears too?? The McLaren F1 finished 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th overall in the 24 hours of Lemans with the drivers all shifting their own gears.?

You are right, but that has to do with class restrictions. That's why I said 'when its allowed.'

[MX793]

As little as roadracing has to do with street cars, I'll still bite on this argument with one counterpoint: In the roadracing classes that allow such transmissions, the gearshifting has been computerized. Formula One drivers have not had a clutch pedal for many years now. These transmissions are netiehr standard manuals nor standard automatics, but as they do shift their own gears, can be considered to be more automatic than manual, can they not?

IIRC, F1 cars do have a clutch pedal, but it's only used for starting and stopping.  I also don't believe these gearboxes will shift automatically.  Unless the driver initiates a shift, the car will not shift.  I'd call that a manual gearbox.

[Soup DeVille]

IIRC, F1 cars do have a clutch pedal, but it's only used for starting and stopping.? I also don't believe these gearboxes will shift automatically.? Unless the driver initiates a shift, the car will not shift.? I'd call that a manual gearbox.

The clutch is engaged on most of them by pulling both the upshift and downshift tabs at the same time. No pedal. And you're right, they are technically semi-auto gearboxes, but my point was to illustrate that neither standard manuals nor standard automatics are the gearbox of choice anymore.

[MX793]

The clutch is engaged on most of them by pulling both the upshift and downshift tabs at the same time. No pedal. And you're right, they are technically semi-auto gearboxes, but my point was to illustrate that neither standard manuals nor standard automatics are the gearbox of choice anymore.

Interesting.  Could have sworn I read somewhere that there was still a largely unused clutch pedal.  Maybe it was in a different type of race car that also has paddle shifters.

[Soup DeVille]

Interesting.? Could have sworn I read somewhere that there was still a largely unused clutch pedal.? Maybe it was in a different type of race car that also has paddle shifters.

You could be right- maybe some have one as a type of redundant control- should the drive have to use the clutch and wipe a bug off of his mask or something at the same time: or to keep from stalling the motor after a spin.

[S204STi]

It was time to crimp a juicy turd in R-inge's hat.

The NetHead here needs to wipe after a nice steamer like that, or else he runs the risk of skidmarks.

[S204STi]

Bah, skullnumbing doucheness.

[Soup DeVille]

Bah, skullnumbing doucheness.

Chill out, it aint worth it.

[S204STi]

Chill out, it aint worth it.

You're right, hence the edit.   People like him just get under my skin, which really is my problem more than it is his I guess.

[Nethead]

As little as roadracing has to do with street cars, I'll still bite on this argument with one counterpoint: In the roadracing classes that allow such transmissions, the gearshifting has been computerized. Formula One drivers have not had a clutch pedal for many years now. These transmissions are netiehr standard manuals nor standard automatics, but as they do shift their own gears, can be considered to be more automatic than manual, can they not?

Soup DeVille:? Thoughtful posting, SoupDude!? However, what you have in these transmissions is more akin to an automatic clutch than it is to an automatic transmission.? The shifting is typically done by the driver, not by the transmission under the control of autonomous electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, or mechanical systems.  Some systems control and perform the shifting for you, too, but they're not as common--and I'll wager on a course with right and left turns a competent driver can control the shifts himself and beat his or her best laptime on the course using a system that controlled and performed the shifting.  Whether this would be true on ovals is just not known by the Nethead here--there may be times when a fully automatic system might cut lap times for most--and maybe all--drivers on oval tracks.  I believe the last oval track event I attended was in May of 1972--someone with more current knowledge will need to take the mike to discuss automatic transmissions in oval track racing...

The advantage of manuals is that the driver determines WHEN a shift or a downshift will be made, not some set of autonomous controls as mentioned in the previous paragraph.? Autonomous controls are improving, but a driver has sight, hearing, and feeling (in the context of sensing when the engine is lugging and may need a downshift, etc.) to aid in knowing when's the best time to shift or downshift.? These three senses in conjunction are better than the best set of sensors ever applied to shifting a transmission up or down in a roadrace.?

Dragracing, a more one-dimensional sport, is more amenable to autonomous shifting controls--which is why racing automatics and the better street automatics (the Chrysler Torque-Flite (Torque-Flyte?), for example) can do a fine job at the strip.?

Around here, there are lots of low-traffic roads that will stretch all the roadracing skills you possess--a coupla buddies with cellphones can keep you informed about traffic ahead while you see if those adjustables are worth what you paid for 'em.