Spyshots of a PRODUCTION BMW 1-series coupe

[Eye of the Tiger]

[Raghavan]

You're in love with a red x?

[Eye of the Tiger]

You're in love with a red x?

yes that's it

[Raghavan]

I see.

[mazda6er]

So a heavier vehicle is easier to stop, simply because it generates more friction with the ground? I don't think so.

Apply my model to dry road conditions. 2 cars with the same size brakes and same size tires are traveling at the same speed. One weighs 5000 lbs and the other 2000. If both drivers apply the same force to their brakes, at the same time, which will stop sooner?

That theoretically works in dry road conditions because in most cases, we're not considering speeds in which the vehicles will overcome the coefficient of friction between their tires and the dry road surface. In a situation in which we are pushing the cars to their limits on a dry road, the lighter car will break free and lose traction before the heavier car will, and thus, we get a skid and your argument (which I'm assuming you're basing upon the concept of momentum) is shot to hell. The difference in stopping distance between the heavier and the lighter vehicle in which they both maintain their friction with the road surface is trivial compared to that of the difference that occurs once the lighter car breaks free from the road surface's grip. Being that it is far easier to overcome the substantially lower coefficient of friction present between tires and a snow-covered road, it is also far likelier that a vehicle will break free of the friction and enter a skid, and it will be the lighter vehicle that does so first.

Your friend's Camaro suffers from poor control in winter not because of its somewhat high weight, but rather because of its poor weight distribution. Considering 50/50 cars, the heavier one will always be preferrable as far as winter safety is concerned.

[850CSi]

Granted we are working with rather limited photo evidence, but what makes you think this looks like the compact?? I am curious......

The lines, C-Pillar, and rear end.

I'll reserve complete judgement for when we see the completely undisguised version, but right now I don't like what I see.

[Tave]

So why do people who compete in ice racing try to remove as much weight from their vehicle as possible, and why are the winning cars in those competitions all small?

[850CSi]

Everyone pits the 1 series with the the Golf line.? All the way up from the smallest engine to the 130i (compared to the R32).

Assuming we get something like a 123i as our lowest model, I doubt it's going to cost as much as a GTI, It'll likely be slotted right under an A3 2.0T with maybe a 128i being a little more expensive than the A3 2.0T.

And if it does cost as much as a GTI, VW is screwed. I just don't see a BMW costing $22K in this country.

[MexicoCityM3]

Assuming we get something like a 123i as our lowest model, I doubt it's going to cost as much as a GTI, It'll likely be slotted right under an A3 2.0T with maybe a 128i being a little more expensive than the A3 2.0T.

And if it does cost as much as a GTI, VW is screwed. I just don't see a BMW costing $22K in this country.

Here the 120i is priced to compete with the GTI. It will get 170hp ina few months and great emissions and fuel economy technology. I think its pretty sweet.

[mazda6er]

So why do people who compete in ice racing try to remove as much weight from their vehicle as possible, and why are the winning cars in those competitions all small?

Um, perhaps because lighter cars are faster than heavier cars?  It is a race, after all.

These guys are drivers. You could make the same argument for NASCAR: "Well, if going 200 mph is dangerous than howcome they do it in NASCAR?" This doesn't make going 200 any less dangerous, it just means the general public can't do it without fucking up. These guys aren't the general public.

[Tave]

Um, perhaps because lighter cars are faster than heavier cars?? It is a race, after all.

But according to you a heavier car with the same power to weight ratio would be easier to handle on limited-friction surfaces. Why don't they use larger cars with more power instead of anemic, stripped out CRX's and VW Rabbits?



You were right to say that I was basing my argument on momentum, but that force doesn't fly out the window in the snow. I'll buy your assertion that a lighter car will skid earlier, but when both cars loose traction, the heavier one has more inertia to deal with.

[Tave]

These guys are drivers. You could make the same argument for NASCAR: "Well, if going 200 mph is dangerous than howcome they do it in NASCAR?" This doesn't make going 200 any less dangerous, it just means the general public can't do it without fucking up. These guys aren't the general public.

Actually ice racing is the one kind of racing that is done by the general public. It's the only type of affordable automotive competition.

[mazda6er]

But according to you a heavier car with the same power to weight ratio would be easier to handle on limited-friction surfaces. Why don't they use larger cars with more power instead of anemic, stripped out CRX's and VW Rabbits?



You were right to say that I was basing my argument on momentum, but that force doesn't fly out the window in the snow. I'll buy your assertion that a lighter car will skid earlier, but when both cars loose traction, the heavier one has more inertia to deal with.

While the bolded statement is correct, it does not translate into a longer stopping distance. Consider a 1 lb box and a 10 lb box, sitting on a rug. In this particular situation, overcoming friction (losing traction) occurs when a force causes either box to move on the rug (since boxes do not roll).  Exert an equal force on both boxes, so that both are caused to move. Which box comes to rest first?

I think we need to come to a conclusion here. We are, in fact, both correct. It depends on the situation.

Consdering two cars that are identical except for their weights:

You are right...
- if both cars maintain traction, the heavier car will have a longer stopping distance.
- that more weight is not beneficial in ALL instances...i.e. if it is concentrated over non-drive wheels.

I am right...
- that the lighter car will overcome friction sooner and thus skid sooner
- if both cars lose traction, the heavier car will still have a shorter stopping distance.

[mazda6er]

Actually ice racing is the one kind of racing that is done by the general public. It's the only type of affordable automotive competition.

It is open to the general public. How well do you think your mother would do?

[Tave]

I think we need to come to a conclusion here. We are, in fact, both correct. It depends on the situation.

I couldn't agree more, and here it is:

We both spend as much time as possible sliding around in the snow.

That way it doesn't matter whether or not the car is heavy, because we know what to do with them when all hell breaks loose.

Oh, and it's a lot of fun besides.

[Tave]

It is open to the general public. How well do you think your mother would do?

[mazda6er]

I couldn't agree more, and here it is:

We both spend as much time as possible sliding around in the snow.

That way it doesn't matter whether or not the car is heavy, because we know what to do with them when all hell breaks loose.

Oh, and it's a lot of fun besides.

I don't know about you man, but I don't know what I'm doing when I start to skid. I've got a $10,000 repair bill that says so. 

[850CSi]

You guys are making good arguments, but I think the bottom line in this specific case is that a 1-Series isn't so light that it's weight will be a significant factor in its performance in inclement weather.

[Tave]

I don't know about you man, but I don't know what I'm doing when I start to skid. I've got a $10,000 repair bill that says so.?

Yeah, I've got a bent axle on the Aveo from "winter fun" that says the same thing. That curb came out of nowhere.

[Tave]

You guys are making good arguments, but I think the bottom line in this specific case is that a 1-Series isn't so light that it's weight will be a significant factor in its performance in inclement weather.

Is that a not-so-subtle attempt to get us back on topic?

[850CSi]

Oh, and one other thing: I think Mark's argument about weight distribution is also relevant.

I've taken my car [50/50 distribution] to empty parking lots a lot of times, and I'm not exaggerating when I say that it's actually a little hard to completely lose control - even when I was trying to lose control on purpose it was ridiculously easy to get it back.

[850CSi]

Is that a not-so-subtle attempt to get us back on topic?

Not really, I could care less. 

[mazda6er]

Yeah, I've got a bent axle on the Aveo from "winter fun" that says the same thing. That curb came out of nowhere.

You'd think someone would have taken care of those moving curbs by now...

Time for bed. Good debate, who knows who the hell's actually right.  :P

[mazda6er]

Oh, and one other thing: I think Mark's argument about weight distribution is also relevant.

I've taken my car [50/50 distribution] to empty parking lots a lot of times, and I'm not exaggerating when I say that it's actually a little hard to completely lose control - even when I was trying to lose control on purpose it was ridiculously easy to get it back.

Yeah, that's why people use sandbags in their trunks. Problem is, they sometimes do it with FWD cars, too...

My mom works with a woman who drives an Accent with a sound system in the trunk that weighs God knows how much. The other day she came into work complaining about having a hard time driving in the snow. I thought it was hilarious, the damn thing was probably tilted back on its ass end, drive wheels barely gripping road. 

[850CSi]

Yeah, that's why people use sandbags in their trunks. Problem is, they sometimes do it with FWD cars, too...

My mom works with a woman who drives an Accent with a sound system in the trunk that weighs God knows how much. The other day she came into work complaining about having a hard time driving in the snow. I thought it was hilarious, the damn thing was probably tilted back on its ass end, drive wheels barely gripping road.?

[ChrisV]

I like it. The return of the 2002. Needs a good turbo 4.

And autocross is a cheaper form of motorsports open to the public.

[Tave]

I like it. The return of the 2002. Needs a good turbo 4.

And autocross is a cheaper form of motorsports open to the public.

Yes, because the contestants need not buy a dedicated, second car.

If you compare the sports car-to-car, then I bet the average ice-racing car is cheaper than the average auto-x car.

[Raza]

Assuming we get something like a 123i as our lowest model, I doubt it's going to cost as much as a GTI, It'll likely be slotted right under an A3 2.0T with maybe a 128i being a little more expensive than the A3 2.0T.

And if it does cost as much as a GTI, VW is screwed. I just don't see a BMW costing $22K in this country.

Here, the 1 series isn't going to be a hatch.  And if VW isn't screwed in the rest of the world, what makes you think the all mighty, all conquering, infallible BMW is going to slay it here?

If BMW goes premium pricing on this one, they're the ones that are going to get fucked.  A 135i should cost no more than a moderately equipped 328i.

[JYODER240]

Heavy cars do better in the snow.

[Tave]

Heavy cars do better in the snow.

I thought of this after last night's discussion:

In the snow, all else being equal, a heavier car will understeer into a turn before a lighter one.

Maybe you can answer my question; if heavier cars do better in the snow, why do small cars consistently win ice-races? Why is that form of competition being dominated by CRX's, Rabbits, etc...?